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2012/09/14 04:51:41
Subject: Re:US Ambassador to Libya murdered... Romney blames Obama...
whembly wrote: Is he now effectively known as the "smirk" now? You do know the whole story about that particular press conference right?
The grand conspiracy of reporters actually working together to get an answer from the guy known for not really answering questions?
Right... so, it was obvious, and Romney knows what they're doing... hence the smirk.
Did the exact same thing during the Republican primary... the conservatives HATED that smirk...
Here it is:
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: …pointing out that the Republicans… *unintelligible* …Obama….
CBS REPORTER: That’s the question.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: *unintelligible*
CBS REPORTER: Yeah that’s the question. I would just say do you regret your question.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Your question? Your statement?
CBS REPORTER: I mean your statement. Not even the tone, because then he can go off on…
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And then if he does, if we can just follow up and say ‘but this morning your answer is continuing to sound…’ – *becomes unintelligble*
CBS REPORTER: You can’t say that..
**Later**
CBS REPORTER: I’m just trying to make sure that we’re just talking about, no matter who he calls on we’re covered on the one question.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you stand by your statement or regret your statement?
So reporters whose job it is to ask questions and get answers worked together to ask the question and get the answer. Clearly they are monsters, how dare they except a guy who wants to lead this country to actually answer a question.
No...it's not their job to work together... they're competing news organizations. And you wonder why some of us complain about "media bias".
So if a presidential candidate gives remarks about a foreign-policy crisis, you’d be forgiven for thinking that in the Q&A held immediately afterward, reporters would ask him about . . . foreign policy. But when Mitt Romney took questions today after talking about the situation in Libya and Egypt, the dominant theme of the questions was all about process and politics. Here are the seven questions asked:
1. Reporter brings up that Romney had a “toughly worded statement last night,” and asks, “Do you regret the tone at all given what we know now?”
2. “Do you think, though, coming so soon after the events really had unfolded over night was appropriate, to be weighing in on this as this crisis was unfolding in real time?” Follow-up: “What did the White House do wrong then, Gov. Romney, if they put out a statement saying they disagreed with it?”
3. “The world is watching. Isn’t this itself a mixed signal when you criticize the administration at a time that Americans are being killed? Shouldn’t politics stop for this?”
4. “Some people have said that you jumped the gun a little bit in putting that statement out last night and that you should have waited until more details were available. Do you regret having that statement come out so early before we learned about all of the things that were happening?”
5. “If you had known last night that the ambassador had died, and obviously, I’m gathering you did not know . . . if you had known that the ambassador had died, would you have issued such a strongly-issued statement?”
6. Reporter comments that Romney is running on his “economic know-how and private sector experience,” and adds, “but now that foreign policy and the situation in the Middle East has been thrust into the presidential campaign, can you talk about why specifically you think you are better qualified than President Obama to handle these issues?”
7. “How specifically, Governor Romney, would a President Romney have handled this situation differently than President Obama did? You spoke out before midnight, when all the facts weren’t known. How would you have handled this differently than the president did?”
Only the last question even addressed what Romney would have done if he was in office. None of the questions asked Romney to give details or be more specific about what he thinks the United States should do going forward.
I’ve long been critical of how few press conferences Romney has held, both in the primary and in the general election. Sure, the media can be biased. But 1) I think it’s good for a presidential candidates to be available to the press, to be subject to tough questions, and to be asked about a variety of matters; and 2) I think that a Republican candidate should prove he can deftly handle biased questions — it’s not fair, but it’s the reality of what he will face as president day after day.
But today’s press conference was really an example of how the media sometimes just doesn’t deserve that access. Let political consultants talk about the timing and tone of the statement. The candidate should be grilled on policy, on issues, on what he thinks is the right course going forward, not politics and strategy.
No...it's not their job to work together... they're competing news organizations. And you wonder why some of us complain about "media bias".
feth that stupid gak. If the candidate is stonewalling all of them, and all of them want an answer to a simple question, it's in their mutual self interest to get the answer. And you wonder why some of us think complaints about media bias are stupid.
Whembly wrote:
But today’s press conference was really an example of how the media sometimes just doesn’t deserve that access. Let political consultants talk about the timing and tone of the statement. The candidate should be grilled on policy, on issues, on what he thinks is the right course going forward, not politics and strategy.
What moron wrote that? Romney jumped on a political situation and the chance to sound off and try to look like a tough guy and like he was correcting the President. He jumped the gun and made himself look like an idiot and an donkey-cave. Asking him questions about what he was thinking, and whether he stood by those statements now that more information had come out, was absolutely legitimate and the job of the news media. We the voters need to know what was the rationale behind his comments, and whether he wants to stand by them or will admit error.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whembly wrote:
Dogma wrote:
whembly wrote:Um... the embassy IS the administration.
No it isn't. Even The Newt doesn't think so, unless the Democrats are in power.
Okay... now I'm confused...
Answer me this: Can President fire the Ambassador?
Answer me this: Did the President hire the Ambassador? Is the Ambassador part of the team the President established to lead the Executive Branch and execute his policies?
The answer is no.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/09/14 05:04:23
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Young Newt likes to rail on about how the State Department has a mind of its own. And he is correct, but that it has a mind of its own is a good thing.
No...it's not their job to work together... they're competing news organizations. And you wonder why some of us complain about "media bias".
feth that stupid gak. If the candidate is stonewalling all of them, and all of them want an answer to a simple question, it's in their mutual self interest to get the answer. And you wonder why some of us think complaints about media bias are stupid.
Manny... when was he stonewalling? Did you even see the open mic activities prior to the conference?
Whembly wrote:
But today’s press conference was really an example of how the media sometimes just doesn’t deserve that access. Let political consultants talk about the timing and tone of the statement. The candidate should be grilled on policy, on issues, on what he thinks is the right course going forward, not politics and strategy.
What moron wrote that? Romney jumped on a political situation and the chance to sound off and try to look like a tough guy and like he was correcting the President. He jumped the gun and made himself look like an idiot and an donkey-cave. Asking him questions about what he was thinking, and whether he stood by those statements now that more information had come out, was absolutely legitimate and the job of the news media. We the voters need to know what was the rationale behind his comments, and whether he wants to stand by them or will admit error.
Fine.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whembly wrote:
Dogma wrote:
whembly wrote:Um... the embassy IS the administration.
No it isn't. Even The Newt doesn't think so, unless the Democrats are in power.
Okay... now I'm confused...
Answer me this: Can President fire the Ambassador?
Answer me this: Did the President hire the Ambassador? Is the Ambassador part of the team the President established to lead the Executive Branch and execute his policies?
The answer is no.
The answer is yes. They can be fired by the President, and appointed...
Why do you think they're some appointed officials who doesn't work for the Executive branch?
Young Newt likes to rail on about how the State Department has a mind of its own. And he is correct, but that it has a mind of its own is a good thing.
A President's "administration" normally refers to Executive Branch personnel. Ambassadors don't work for the Executive Branch, they work for the State Dept.
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Mannahnin wrote: A President's "administration" normally refers to Executive Branch personnel. Ambassadors don't work for the Executive Branch, they work for the State Dept.
Ohkay...
So... what branch does that State Department fall under?
And, who runs it?
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2012/09/14 05:20:36
Subject: US Ambassador to Libya murdered... Romney blames Obama...
Mannahnin wrote: A President's "administration" normally refers to Executive Branch personnel. Ambassadors don't work for the Executive Branch, they work for the State Dept.
Ohkay...
So... what branch does that State Department fall under?
And, who runs it?
I take it you don't understand the basics of civil servants and their role in national government vs elected administrations and their staff?
2012/09/14 05:26:38
Subject: US Ambassador to Libya murdered... Romney blames Obama...
Mannahnin wrote: A President's "administration" normally refers to Executive Branch personnel. Ambassadors don't work for the Executive Branch, they work for the State Dept.
I'm going to bed... here's the answer:
Within the Executive Branch, the Department of State is the lead U.S. foreign affairs agency, and the Secretary of State is the President's principal foreign policy adviser. The Department advances U.S. objectives and interests in shaping a freer, more secure, and more prosperous world through its primary role in developing and implementing the President's foreign policy.
Mannahnin wrote: A President's "administration" normally refers to Executive Branch personnel. Ambassadors don't work for the Executive Branch, they work for the State Dept.
Ohkay...
So... what branch does that State Department fall under?
And, who runs it?
Pardon me, you're right, it's under the Executive Branch. It's still inaccurate at least and dishonest at worst for Mitt to pretend that the announcement was made on behalf of the President and represented his official opinions. If Hillary had said something, or an announcement been issued by the State Dept, that'd be a bit different. But we're talking about a tweet issued by an individual Embassy. Which is certainly not speaking on behalf of the whole State Dept, much less the entire administration.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/14 05:28:08
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Mannahnin wrote: A President's "administration" normally refers to Executive Branch personnel. Ambassadors don't work for the Executive Branch, they work for the State Dept.
Ohkay...
So... what branch does that State Department fall under?
And, who runs it?
I take it you don't understand the basics of civil servants and their role in national government vs elected administrations and their staff?
In what specific manner do you expect Obama (or Hillary) to hold the embassy staff accountable?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/14 05:30:13
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Mannahnin wrote: A President's "administration" normally refers to Executive Branch personnel. Ambassadors don't work for the Executive Branch, they work for the State Dept.
Ohkay...
So... what branch does that State Department fall under?
And, who runs it?
Pardon me, you're right, it's under the Executive Branch.
No problemo dude!
It's still inaccurate at least and dishonest at worst for Mitt to pretend that the announcement was made on behalf of the President and represented his official opinions.
Yeah... okay, I get this sentiment.
If Hillary had said something, or an announcement been issued by the State Dept, that'd be a bit different.
True, but my criticism was more on the opportunity to explain our 1st Amendment... but we already went over that.
But we're talking about a tweet issued by an individual Embassy. Which is certainly not speaking on behalf of the whole State Dept, much less the entire administration.
Eh... they are part of the organization. and as evidences by the numerous retraction, reframing... there were issues with those statements.
Let me just say this... this is one clusterfeth on all sides.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mannahnin wrote: In what specific manner do you expect Obama (or Hillary) to hold the embassy staff accountable?
Are you reference my conversation with Dogma? I just trying to tell him that Ambassadors answers to the Executive branch.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/14 05:36:36
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2012/09/14 05:36:38
Subject: US Ambassador to Libya murdered... Romney blames Obama...
Trust me, I work in the executive branch. It's a far stretch to think that somehow any statement from me or anybody at my workplace is indicative of what Obama is thinking.
2012/09/14 05:38:53
Subject: US Ambassador to Libya murdered... Romney blames Obama...
whembly wrote:Let me just say this... this is one clusterfeth on all sides.
I think that's false equivocation. I hate that when someone one on side of the political aisle does something stupid, their supporters inevitably jump to point out an occasion when someone on the other side did something similarly stupid, as if that excuses it. It allows people to rationalize away misdeeds and stupidity rather than holding politicians responsible.
In this case the embassy did have some issues with their communications, although considering the situation they were personally in, it's hard for you or me to play armchair quarterback and second-guess them.
whembly wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:In what specific manner do you expect Obama (or Hillary) to hold the embassy staff accountable?
Are you reference my conversation with Dogma? I just trying to tell him that Ambassadors answers to the Executive branch.
I was curious what you think the embassy staff really did wrong, and what you think their ultimate bosses will do to them.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/14 05:41:40
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Mannahnin wrote: I think that's false equivocation. I hate that when someone one on side of the political aisle does something stupid, their supporters inevitably jump to point out an occasion when someone on the other side did something similarly stupid, as if that excuses it. It allows people to rationalize away misdeeds and stupidity rather than holding politicians responsible.
In this case the embassy did have some issues with their communications, although considering the situation they were personally in, it's hard for you or me to play armchair quarterback and second-guess them.
Agreed.
I apologize (truly) if anyone is mad at me...
I'm mad at the following:
1) on 9/11, of all days, our Libyan consulate and 3 other Americans were murdered
2) on 9/11, of all days, the Egyptian Embassy was breached
3) Missed opportunity for Clinton (I think it's more appropriate of her to do this, not Obama) to explain our 1st Amendment rights.
4) I'm mad that no one else is mad. (maybe I'm derange?).
All that other stuff (the tweets, Romney's smirk, followup conf)... you said it better there Manny...
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2012/09/14 05:47:19
Subject: US Ambassador to Libya murdered... Romney blames Obama...
whembly wrote:Let me just say this... this is one clusterfeth on all sides.
I think that's false equivocation. I hate that when someone one on side of the political aisle does something stupid, their supporters inevitably jump to point out an occasion when someone on the other side did something similarly stupid, as if that excuses it. It allows people to rationalize away misdeeds and stupidity rather than holding politicians responsible.
In this case the embassy did have some issues with their communications, although considering the situation they were personally in, it's hard for you or me to play armchair quarterback and second-guess them.
whembly wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:In what specific manner do you expect Obama (or Hillary) to hold the embassy staff accountable?
Are you reference my conversation with Dogma? I just trying to tell him that Ambassadors answers to the Executive branch.
I was curious what you think the embassy staff really did wrong, and what you think their ultimate bosses will do to them.
I don't know... I'm not on the ground there. Whatever they did/said they have their reasons. I know I shouldn't have a say as I'm not "in their shoes".
I'm just so irritated that we are always the bad guy... that it's our fault for their behavior.
Now I know this is incindiary(sp?)... but it's like blaming a rape victim because of the way she dresses... know what I mean?
Hey... if I'm wrong... I'm wrong.
Like what Jihadin said earlier, maybe the best course to close the Embassy and withdraw all aids (we send them billions).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/14 05:54:27
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2012/09/14 06:03:28
Subject: US Ambassador to Libya murdered... Romney blames Obama...
We're not the bad guy. The donkey-cave who made the video is a bad guy. Most of the protestors are just ignorant people stirred up by bad guys. The violent ones are also bad guys.
We need to be able to condemn the bad guys without lumping in all the angry people as bad guys too, in part because treating them all the same is likely to make more bad guys.
People who lump all the protestors together and equate the non-violent ones with the violent ones are making the same mistake the protesters are in equating one group of bad guy Americans with all Americans.
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Mannahnin wrote: We're not the bad guy. The donkey-cave who made the video is a bad guy. Most of the protestors are just ignorant people stirred up by bad guys. The violent ones are also bad guys.
We need to be able to condemn the bad guys without lumping in all the angry people as bad guys too, in part because treating them all the same is likely to make more bad guys.
People who lump all the protestors together and equate the non-violent ones with the violent ones are making the same mistake the protesters are in equating one group of bad guy Americans with all Americans.
Thanks... I feel better.
You're right.
I need to cool it.
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2012/09/14 06:11:39
Subject: US Ambassador to Libya murdered... Romney blames Obama...
Thanks, sir. I think you make some bad arguments sometimes, and get a lot of info from bad sources (bad guys), but most of the time it looks to me like you're making an honest effort and are being truthful based on your understanding of a situation. I really appreciate your willingness to listen and consider other viewpoints. Especially since a lot of us have a tendency to get a bit strident.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/14 06:13:20
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“Our country does have a long tradition of free expression, which is enshrined in our Constitution and in our law,” she said during a long-planned meeting with leaders from Morocco, a Muslim country concurrently governed by a Western-oriented king and an elected Islamist government.
“We do not stop individual citizens from expressing their views no matter how distasteful they may be,”
Perhaps that will help clear up things up a bit? The State Department isn't just a fry cook at the White House's restaurant. It has a level of independence and yet is also answerable to the White House. This is where government institutions differ from business. The WH and the SD are separate but connected entities. Presidents come and go but the need for strong diplomatic ties to other states in consistent and thus the people there often are a bit more consistent. It is still a political job and if an ambassador pisses of a President they can be let go (like saying something inapproriate or having an affair with the daughter of the head of the country they are in), but generally many stay there until they leave or are moved up. You have to remember for each ambassador there is a large cadre of people below them that need to know the area they are working in. When an administration comes in their people come in, when it leaves they leave, but the vast majority of State Department employees and officials will still be there.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2012/09/14 14:04:58
Subject: US Ambassador to Libya murdered... Romney blames Obama...
Wasn't one of the candidates in the Republican primary criticized for being an ambassador during a democrats presidency? I think he had a good answer to the critics that sums up the state department pretty well:
"I serve the Country, not the President."
2012/09/14 14:06:54
Subject: US Ambassador to Libya murdered... Romney blames Obama...
Mannahnin wrote: A President's "administration" normally refers to Executive Branch personnel. Ambassadors don't work for the Executive Branch, they work for the State Dept.
Ohkay...
So... what branch does that State Department fall under?
And, who runs it?
I take it you don't understand the basics of civil servants and their role in national government vs elected administrations and their staff?
Again, do you not understand the difference between the civil service and the elected partisan executive within a western democratic government? (also, less of the /facepalming orks until you've understood what I've asked you, it makes you're response read as trite).
2012/09/14 14:36:13
Subject: Re:US Ambassador to Libya murdered... Romney blames Obama...
Why are we arguing this? This "it's too big, there's no way the Executive Branch runs the States Department" is asinine.
Ambassadors are appointed by the President (or prior Prez) and approved by the US Senate (via the Advise & Consent clause).
The President appoints the Secretary of State, which is part of the President's Cabinet.
The Secretary of State oversees the States Department.
Ambassadors falls under the pervue of the States Department.
At any time Ambassadors can be replaced by the Secretary and/or President. And, yes usually the staff stays onboard from previous administrations, but the point still stands.
And I quote:
the Department of State is the lead U.S. foreign affairs agency, and the Secretary of State is the President's principal foreign policy adviser. The Department advances U.S. objectives and interests in shaping a freer, more secure, and more prosperous world through its primary role in developing and implementing the President's foreign policy.
Ergo.. The Prez is da Boss and is accountable.
Now, back to the topic on hand at the Embassy's response... like I said when discussing this with Manny I was fustrated... But, giving credit when due, H. Clinton did defend what we're about in Morocco!
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2012/09/14 14:44:22
Subject: US Ambassador to Libya murdered... Romney blames Obama...
d-usa wrote: Next time I am rude to somebody at work, I will hold the President accountable for my actions...
If it goes that far... makes you wondering if your superior weren't doing their job...
Look, you should've seen me during the Iraq War when Bush was Prez... I was howling over some of the crap the States Dept were doing... And yes, I blamed Bush for that... Abu Gharib? States Dept bungled that up badly and Bush really didn't address it quick enough for me...
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2012/09/14 15:07:50
Subject: US Ambassador to Libya murdered... Romney blames Obama...
d-usa wrote: Next time I am rude to somebody at work, I will hold the President accountable for my actions...
If it goes that far... makes you wondering if your superior weren't doing their job...
Look, you should've seen me during the Iraq War when Bush was Prez... I was howling over some of the crap the States Dept were doing... And yes, I blamed Bush for that... Abu Gharib? States Dept bungled that up badly and Bush really didn't address it quick enough for me...
Please tell me that you haven't just compared a US run detention facility where they were torturing prisoners with a tweet in terms of accountability or "seriousness"?
And yes, I blamed Bush for that... Abu Gharib? States Dept bungled that up badly and Bush really didn't address it quick enough for me...
