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 ShumaGorath wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Ahahahah, that's funny, you think an associates degree is anything more than expensive toilet paper.

I know you're just trolling, but if an Associate's degree gets you the job you want I'd say it was worth the effort.

Check job placement rates at community colleges at some point. You might be underwhelmed.

As someone has already stated, you need a degree to even get an interview in many cases. I'm not sure what bearing job placement percentages would have on this.

 Monster Rain wrote:

 ShumaGorath wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Ahahahah, that's funny, you think an associates degree is anything more than expensive toilet paper.

I know you're just trolling, but if an Associate's degree gets you the job you want I'd say it was worth the effort.

Check job placement rates at community colleges at some point. You might be underwhelmed.

As someone has already stated, you need a degree to even get an interview in many cases. I'm not sure what bearing job placement percentages would have on this.

The big national push to create numerous community colleges and move education online have created a strong industry for passing out economically worthless trade educations in fields that are already flush with qualified applicants. In my job search I'm finding a very strong demand for 4 year degrees and I work in a design field that almost every community college in America offers a major for. It's even a field where job placement is based on portfolio quality and not educational certificates or schooling. Community colleges don't place people into the economy like people want to pretend.

There's a weird disconnect where businesses want four year degrees or better, but don't want people who are overqualified, and want them in fields where degrees aren't even needed. Two year degrees can be kind of a trap due to what hirers have fooled themselves into needing.

 ShumaGorath wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:

 ShumaGorath wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Ahahahah, that's funny, you think an associates degree is anything more than expensive toilet paper.

I know you're just trolling, but if an Associate's degree gets you the job you want I'd say it was worth the effort.

Check job placement rates at community colleges at some point. You might be underwhelmed.

As someone has already stated, you need a degree to even get an interview in many cases. I'm not sure what bearing job placement percentages would have on this.

The big national push to create numerous community colleges and move education online have created a strong industry for passing out economically worthless trade educations in fields that are already flush with qualified applicants. In my job search I'm finding a very strong demand for 4 year degrees and I work in a design field that almost every community college in America offers a major for. It's even a field where job placement is based on portfolio quality and not educational certificates or schooling. Community colleges don't place people into the economy like people want to pretend.

There's more to getting a job than simply having a diploma, I agree. Still, you need specialized training in many lines of work that make it extremely difficult to be hired without.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Predatory lending isn't something that should be encouraged.

In Melissia's world anything you don't want to pay back is predatory lending.

That's a good lie that you tell yourself.

 ShumaGorath wrote:

There's a weird disconnect where businesses want four year degrees or better, but don't want people who are overqualified, and want them in fields where degrees aren't even needed. Two year degrees can be kind of a trap due to what hirers have fooled themselves into needing.

Yes, a thousand times yes.

They also want experience but don't want too much experience, as well.

So you get weird things like entry level positions requiring 3 months of experience in the field. But if you have a year or more they won't hire you because you're overqualified.

 Melissia wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Predatory lending isn't something that should be encouraged.

In Melissia's world anything you don't want to pay back is predatory lending.

That's a good lie that you tell yourself.

In the words of a 2 year old Genghis Connie. "You don't tell meeeee. I tel YOU!!!"

whats your definition then? Have you met a loan you liked?

Actually... yeah. Negotiating on loans can result in a favorable loan. And I've helped my father get a nice loan for his business.

But see, the lenders in that case were actually being HONEST-- they had more inclination to be honest because very few lenders want to get a bad reputation in the small business community (that doesn't stop some, obviously).

Honest is something that many private student lenders frequently are not. Most students are young people, inexperienced with money and the law, and with few resources. Therefor, they are easily abused-- and gotten away with.

 Melissia wrote:
They also want experience but don't want too much experience, as well.

So you get weird things like entry level positions requiring 3 months of experience in the field. But if you have a year or more they won't hire you because you're overqualified.

There seems to be a floor for experience in my jobs searches of 2 years. After that it's 5-10. These aren't even directorial or project lead jobs, they're assistant jobs or things a monkey and a mouse could do. I have one year of solid experience and several years of freelance, but I'm having a hell of a time getting into the interview stage at all. There is seemingly nothing for me with my one year agency experience and four year design degree, I'm too experienced for internships and not experienced enough for anything else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Predatory lending isn't something that should be encouraged.

In Melissia's world anything you don't want to pay back is predatory lending.

That's a good lie that you tell yourself.

In the words of a 2 year old Genghis Connie. "You don't tell meeeee. I tel YOU!!!"

whats your definition then? Have you met a loan you liked?

You described price collusion earlier in this thread. That would imply predatory lending on the part of the colleges, recruiters, and their finaid supporters. I for one believe I was a victim of predatory lending and co-operation between lenders and recruiters to lie and charge big numbers for non transferable credits.

 Melissia wrote:
Actually... yeah. Negotiating on loans can result in a favorable loan. And I've helped my father get a nice loan for his business.

But see, the lenders in that case were actually being HONEST-- they had more inclination to be honest because very few lenders want to get a bad reputation in the small business community (that doesn't stop some, obviously).

Honest is something that many private student lenders frequently are not. Most students are young people, inexperienced with money and the law, and with few resources. Therefor, they are easily abused-- and gotten away with.

So student loans are bad? What other loans are bad? Small business loans are good evidently (having worked in small business lending including doing the approvals for a state sized bank I can tell you your opinion on business bankers is...misplaced...). Dut I digress, what other loans are good or bad?

 Frazzled wrote:
So student loans are bad?

Frazzled, at least try to pay attention, however hard it might be for you.


You know, instead of being a fething liar all the time and making gak up and lying about what has been said.

 ShumaGorath wrote:

You described price collusion earlier in this thread. That would imply predatory lending on the part of the colleges, recruiters, and their finaid supporters. I for one believe I was a victim of predatory lending and co-operation between lenders and recruiters to lie and charge big numbers for non transferable credits.

You very well might have been. however you know which classes were transferrable or not. I sure did.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
So student loans are bad?

Frazzled, at least try to pay attention, however hard it might be for you.

I'm just going with what you're saying. its not my fault if you can't keep your own fact pattern straight.

So again student loans are bad? What other loans are bad? What loans are good? This is intriguing.

Me. LBO loans are bad, quite bad.

 Frazzled wrote:
I'm just going with what you're saying

No, you're not. You're trying to claim that I'm saying that "loans and lenders are bad" or some other rubbish.

I never said they were. Stop lying to yourself.

You very well might have been. however you know which classes were transferrable or not. I sure did.

When the people in charge of informing me about what is and is not transferable lie to my face I don't know the truth. I can't walk up to mister policeman and ask directions for where my credits go, I have to trust the people whose job it is to inform me of this. When I end up having to take an entire year of worthless introductory classes a second time because everyone up to that point lied to me about what does and doesn't transfer I end up with a very strong case for a lawsuit. Sadly, I don't have proof of what I was told, but I sure as hell remember being told for two solid years that "these credits transfer to all schools within the university of Maine system", only to have the only major they can transfer to tell me "no first year credits are transferable" after telling me "everything you have will transfer fine" up until I signed up for classes.

I don't get emotional about very many things in very many places, but if I didn't live several hundred miles away from them It's likely I'd be in jail for physically assaulting some of the professorial staff in my major. They're crooks, and rotten to the core.

 Melissia wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
So student loans are bad?

Frazzled, at least try to pay attention, however hard it might be for you.


You know, instead of being a fething liar all the time and making gak up and lying about what has been said.

You sure like to throwing the term "liar" about. I'd be careful there, you may do that to the wrong person one day and end up with you face in location and the rest of you in another.
Ancient Budha say 1) never call someone a liar; 2) never call someone a cheater; 3) never get directly in the path of an angry Wife in a vehicle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ShumaGorath wrote:

You very well might have been. however you know which classes were transferrable or not. I sure did.

When the people in charge of informing me about what is and is not transferable lie to my face I don't know the truth. I can't walk up to mister policeman and ask directions for where my credits go, I have to trust the people whose job it is to inform me of this. When I end up having to take an entire year of worthless introductory classes a second time because everyone up to that point lied to me about what does and doesn't transfer I end up with a very strong case for a lawsuit. Sadly I don't have proof of what I was told, but I sure as hell remember being told for two solid years that "these credits transfer to all schools within the university of Maine system", only to have the only major they can transfer to tell me "no first year credits are transferable" after telling me "everything you have will transfer fine" up until I signed up for classes.

More later off to the bus. Mine said whether they were transferrable (and went to the college I was planning on transferring to). You may not have been able to do that, hence my statement - you may be right.

 Frazzled wrote:
You sure like to throwing the term "liar" about

Well stop doing it, Frazzled. As another old wise man said, I'm out of feths to give, so be honest or get off my lawn

More later off to the bus. Mine said whether they were transferrable (and went to the college I was planning on transferring to). You may not have been able to do that, hence my statement - you may be right.

I was also sold on classes that they hadn't run in years (they didn't tell me that) and industry professional teachers that didn't exist because they were on three year sabbaticals (they didn't tell me that and those people left the university without returning). They sold me on industry placement statistics that I later found out were a decade old. I was also unfortunate enough to go to school during the financial crises in a state university hammered by it, so what little worth my education had started getting cut as they removed classes and non tenured staff (the only staff worth something there).

I need to move farther away from that place, the whole thing makes me want to hurt someone.

 Frazzled wrote:

You very well might have been. however you know which classes were transferrable or not. I sure did.

Many times, these days, transfers will not be informed of the status of their credits until they're admitted or they have accepted.

You also can't determine loan status, federal or private, until admission occurs.

 ShumaGorath wrote:

More later off to the bus. Mine said whether they were transferrable (and went to the college I was planning on transferring to). You may not have been able to do that, hence my statement - you may be right.

I was also sold on classes that they hadn't run in years (they didn't tell me that) and industry professional teachers that didn't exist because they were on three year sabbaticals (they didn't tell me that and those people left the university without returning). They sold me on industry placement statistics that I later found out were a decade old. I was also unfortunate enough to go to school during the financial crises in a state university hammered by it, so what little worth my education had started getting cut as they removed classes and non tenured staff (the only staff worth something there).

I need to move farther away from that place, the whole thing makes me want to hurt someone.

Damn dude... drinks on me.

And, the sad thing, I hear this all the time from different folks.

We need more sunlight on this because this gaks-up people lives...

 Frazzled wrote:

So again student loans are bad?

Yes, because they can't be discharged.

If student loans (more properly student debt) could be discharged the rate of Bachelor's attainment would decrease massively, which would mean lower costs of attendance, more valuable degrees, and cheaper tuition.

 dogma wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

So again student loans are bad?

Yes, because they can't be discharged.

If student loans could be discharged the rate of Bachelor's attainment would decrease massively, which would mean lower costs of attendance, more valuable degrees, and cheaper tuition.

??? really...

If they can be discharged, then just about everyone would file for bankruptcy.

Not sure if there's a simple answer.

Maybe somehow hold the colleges/universities accountable? No sure how this would be feasible...

 whembly wrote:

If they can be discharged, then just about everyone would file for bankruptcy.

There would be a transitional issue, which would be easily sorted out by way of an effect date. But in the long run you would simply see fewer student loans issued, which would lead to the conditions I described.

Most people don't WANT to file for bankruptcy even if it's the best thing they can do, financially.

 whembly wrote:

 dogma wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

So again student loans are bad?

Yes, because they can't be discharged.

If student loans could be discharged the rate of Bachelor's attainment would decrease massively, which would mean lower costs of attendance, more valuable degrees, and cheaper tuition.

??? really...

If they can be discharged, then just about everyone would file for bankruptcy.

Not sure if there's a simple answer.

Maybe somehow hold the colleges/universities accountable? No sure how this would be feasible...

Filing for bankruptcy as an individual isn't really the best solution when compared to paying a few hundred a month for thirty years. Bankruptcy can make it difficult to function while loans can make it unpleasant.

 ShumaGorath wrote:

Filing for bankruptcy as an individual isn't really the best solution when compared to paying a few hundred a month for thirty years. Bankruptcy can make it difficult to function while loans can make it unpleasant.

True, bankruptcy can make it very hard to find a place to live, or a job.

 whembly wrote:

 ShumaGorath wrote:

More later off to the bus. Mine said whether they were transferrable (and went to the college I was planning on transferring to). You may not have been able to do that, hence my statement - you may be right.

I was also sold on classes that they hadn't run in years (they didn't tell me that) and industry professional teachers that didn't exist because they were on three year sabbaticals (they didn't tell me that and those people left the university without returning). They sold me on industry placement statistics that I later found out were a decade old. I was also unfortunate enough to go to school during the financial crises in a state university hammered by it, so what little worth my education had started getting cut as they removed classes and non tenured staff (the only staff worth something there).

I need to move farther away from that place, the whole thing makes me want to hurt someone.

Damn dude... drinks on me.

And, the sad thing, I hear this all the time from different folks.

We need more sunlight on this because this gaks-up people lives...

I tried to do something about it when I was there, but seemingly the entire staff was either in on it or didn't care. The heads of the university couldn't care less, they were busy cutting everything they could and my major had shown significant growth in new attendants. The students themselves were generally scared to speak up and left after the second year in droves (seriously, there was almost a 50% washout rate, I didn't have enough money to transfer, my family is hella poor). I was in "New Media Design", which was sold to me as a graphic design and technology focused degree. Apparently a lot of other people were sold on a lot of other degree focuses and the classes didn't seem to teach much of anything at all. You don't go to a state school as your first choice if you want to do graphic design, film, or videogames, you do that as a last resort, or in my case because it's where the fething credits could transfer from that pile of gak community college. Since it was mostly everyones last choice or desperation choice most of my classmates just shut up and accepted the easy classes and worthless staff. Without a lot of other people speaking up I was just labeled as a squeaky wheel and nothing happened.

feth Maine, feth the American educational system. This country has a huge problem with it's sacred cow of "individual responsibility" and that's making it impossible for us to reform anything. It's all the same gak, middlemen get in and try to make as much money as possible and people with no choice or who don't know better end up fethed. I hate this countries higher ed system. Everything in this fething country just caters to the rich and feths people like me who work hard to get ahead but don't have a free pass.

 dogma wrote:

 ShumaGorath wrote:

Filing for bankruptcy as an individual isn't really the best solution when compared to paying a few hundred a month for thirty years. Bankruptcy can make it difficult to function while loans can make it unpleasant.

True, bankruptcy can make it very hard to find a place to live, or a job.

Traditionally... bankruptcy is like have a red "A" seared on your chest...

Now? Not so much.

I'm in bankruptcy right now due to my divorce... while my current lender can't contact me (obviously), I get hammered with offers for new home loans, car loans, CREDIT CARDS! It never STOPS . Just for gak and giggles, I went through the process for the Credit check... afterwards, they approved me! (didn't take the offer).

Even then... its a SERIOUS decision and if you can pay off your loans, I'd advise to do so. Bankruptcy is literally the last resort.

But, for those high debt college degree such as Doctoral, Lawyers, etc... it'd be tempting to file bankruptcy after graduating....

 Melissia wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
You sure like to throwing the term "liar" about

Well stop doing it, Frazzled. As another old wise man said, I'm out of feths to give, so be honest or get off my lawn

Isn't calling someone a liar an "intellectually lazy technique" or some such pithy remark that you like to throw around?

I'm still waiting on that list of "Professional jobs" that shouldn't require either an associates or an advanced degree.

 whembly wrote:

 dogma wrote:

 ShumaGorath wrote:

Filing for bankruptcy as an individual isn't really the best solution when compared to paying a few hundred a month for thirty years. Bankruptcy can make it difficult to function while loans can make it unpleasant.

True, bankruptcy can make it very hard to find a place to live, or a job.

Traditionally... bankruptcy is like have a red "A" seared on your chest...

Now? Not so much.

I'm in bankruptcy right now due to my divorce... while my current lender can't contact me (obviously), I get hammered with offers for new home loans, car loans, CREDIT CARDS! It never STOPS . Just for gak and giggles, I went through the process for the Credit check... afterwards, they approved me! (didn't take the offer).

Even then... its a SERIOUS decision and if you can pay off your loans, I'd advise to do so. Bankruptcy is literally the last resort.

But, for those high debt college degree such as Doctoral, Lawyers, etc... it'd be tempting to file bankruptcy after graduating....

And that is a pretty sure sign of a system where price is out of line with benefit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
You sure like to throwing the term "liar" about

Well stop doing it, Frazzled. As another old wise man said, I'm out of feths to give, so be honest or get off my lawn

Isn't calling someone a liar an "intellectually lazy technique" or some such pithy remark that you like to throw around?

I'm still waiting on that list of "Professional jobs" that shouldn't require either an associates or an advanced degree.

Managing a KFC. Any managerial position at UPS warehouse or any similar box distributor. Really any sort of job advancement at all. Find an industry where you can go from service floor to manager without a degree and that managerial position has to pay more than 12 an hour.

 whembly wrote:

But, for those high debt college degree such as Doctoral, Lawyers, etc... it'd be tempting to file bankruptcy after graduating....

High debt degrees?

When I came out of undergrad my student loans were, as mentioned before, right around 130k. I went to private school, but the aid they gave me in my freshman year reduced cost of living below my major state university. I've since paid that debt back, but I also would have filed bankruptcy given the chance. Of course, the bank would never have given me that loan if they knew I could do so.

And good luck finding a position as a doctor or lawyer if you have no experience and a bankruptcy.