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 Rampage wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
seriously. Jaws. Wraiths, a unit with big bases and only I2. How has that solution not crossed your mind.

Because you can't Jaws Wraiths, as they're jump infantry, Jaws doesn't effect them. I'm not defending anyone, it just doesn't work.

This was true in 5th because Jump Infantry was a unique type and not a subset of a parent type, while Jetbikes amazingly were not, hence you could Jaws Jetbikes but not Jump Infantry. In 6th, this has been reversed and Jump infantry are now subtypes of their parent type (generally Infantry) and Jetbikes are their own special type. Combine this bs with the inability to LOS Jaws hits and it pretty much erases res orbs at will and makes Tau Players sad pandas when it is combined with drop pods.

 Phazael wrote:

 Rampage wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
seriously. Jaws. Wraiths, a unit with big bases and only I2. How has that solution not crossed your mind.

Because you can't Jaws Wraiths, as they're jump infantry, Jaws doesn't effect them. I'm not defending anyone, it just doesn't work.

This was true in 5th because Jump Infantry was a unique type and not a subset of a parent type, while Jetbikes amazingly were not, hence you could Jaws Jetbikes but not Jump Infantry. In 6th, this has been reversed and Jump infantry are now subtypes of their parent type (generally Infantry) and Jetbikes are their own special type.

On Jetbikes. http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570051a_Space_Wolves_v1.1.pdf The Space Wolves FAQ, top of page 4 on the right. So you can still hit Jetbikes.

On Jump Infantry. Ok, I see it now, last line of the bold paragraph in the Jump Infantry entry, excellent. That'll come in handy.

Another reason to go TFG and spam flyers.

I see what GW did there.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Phazael wrote:
Yeah that and I have zero sympathy for space wolf players. I have had five years of counts as Cheeze Wolves with 100 point runepriests making half my xenos armies completely unplayable, thanks to Jaws of the Brokenwolf and his magical stick of NO on a 4+. Wolves literally have nothing bad in their book, just a lot of things not as good as Grey Hunter and Long Wang spam. Most of my armies would kill to have blood claws as a core choice, really.

Oh really? Fenrisian Wolves. 63 point TH/SS Terminators. Skyclaws. Swiftclaw Bikers. Lukas the Trickster. Long Fangs aren't even particularly good anymore...

Phazael wrote:Maybe if GW was not adamant about forbidding non Imperial armies from having power axes on your elites you might see a xenos army trying to do something other than spam flyers and tesla.

Incubi have power axes that aren't Unwieldy. Lychguard can take Warscythes. Chaos can take (gasp!) power axes. Tyranids can take boneswords.

Phazael wrote:I might take Lichguard again instead of resigning myself to brining wraiths if I want an assault phase if a bunch of butthurt marine enthusiasts had not insisted that Crons not be allowed axes on them.

So take warscythes? Complaining that hyperphase swords have to follow the rules for swords is laughable.

@Kingsley-
Fenrisian wolves I will kind of agree with, but they are still better than a lot of stable xenos units out there, with their attacks and T4 while still costing less than most forms of bolter bait out there. Skyclaws, Swiftclaw Bikers, and Blood Claws for that matter are awesome, even without the Wolf Priest, its just that Grey Hunters are so much more awesome and point efficient that no one bothers. Lucas is a situational guy, but with the new challenge rules he is actually really good for dorking over tooled out characters, but again most SW netlisters are obsessed with Grey Hunters. But Longfangs not that good anymore... seriously? If anything the new edition has made them better, thanks to wound allocation rules that let the Wolfguard Terminator absorb all the fire. I'm sure Kopach and all of his copycats that have been spamming them still are doing it for fluff reasons....

Incubi are a pity hump from the GW guys who need to sell those models in an army they unilaterally killed with the new edition. Chaos is essentially spikey marines and their new book is going to be a mirror of the Cheese Wolves one, complete with undercosted troops and spammable anti air so those dirty cron xenos won't hurt you anymore. But, boneswords... now you are just trolling. The only models with them are either already MCs or cost 45 points minimum, eg Warriors. I own 30 Warriors with Boneswords, because I am a freak that way, but can you even remember the last time anyone even suggested Warriors were even remotely competitive? I will help you here, it was right before every netlisting SW player started bringing 18 Missile shots to the table......

And Hyperphase Swords should be able to be axes, at least if every single imperial power sword entry gets to do it. Again, I own a bunch of Lychguard, so I have actually used them. Paying 40 for the Warscyth version, who get utterly crushed by any dedicated hand to hand unit out there, is completely ludicrous when terminators average that cost across all codexes and do not require a character (Court Lord) to be viable. Spacewolves pay a premium for their Hamminators, but then why the hell are you not using your Frost Axe Axe (because SW get to combine their special weapons with the new rules, yay!) version thats cheaper and does the same thing? Again, if I don't want to get blown off the table by the 18 ML shots a turn Long Wang Spam (and Jawsed), I need to run the pricier shield version and a court lord, which gets tar pitted by the imediately by the less expensive standard terms which can actually shoot. But if thats not a convincing enough argument, let me ask you what would be less enjoyable to play against: Wriath Spam or a big unit of Power Axe Shield toting Lych Guard? And whats worse is that the Wraiths are less expensinve to take and more mobile and damage resistant, to boot.

But...
This is all academic anyhow. The FAQ rulings and new rules edition are basically dictating that Crons spam flyers and wraiths and the OP should be thankful that his friend has not gotten to that point in his army development yet.

I own 30 Warriors with Boneswords, because I am a freak that way, but can you even remember the last time anyone even suggested Warriors were even remotely competitive? I will help you here, it was right before every netlisting SW player started bringing 18 Missile shots to the table......

but that is impossible SW dec came out before nids and SW were spaming LF with launchers since day one . oh wait ... I see what you did there

 Phazael wrote:
but again most SW netlisters are obsessed with Grey Hunters. But Longfangs not that good anymore... seriously? If anything the new edition has made them better, thanks to wound allocation rules that let the Wolfguard Terminator absorb all the fire. I'm sure Kopach and all of his copycats that have been spamming them still are doing it for fluff reasons....

 Phazael wrote:
I will help you here, it was right before every netlisting SW player started bringing 18 Missile shots to the table......

I don't think you can really say that every Space Wolf player that runs Long Fangs with Missiles, Grey Hunters, or Wolf Guard Terminators which they put at the front of their squads just copies all of that off the internet and Mr Kopach. People run them because they are good units and the latter is a good strategy. We can see that for ourselves, we don't need to go on the internet and wait for someone to point out to us that they are good units. For example, I was running Space Wolves with Terminators at the front of squads in July, 2 months before the NoVA, and 2 months before we saw TK's NovA list, at the same time as that, I was running IG allies, as I started collecting IG a few years back and never got around to finish completing the army, so I thought that it was a good excuse to use them, and yes, they had a Primaris Psyker.

To say that all competitive Space Wolves players run what they run because that's what the internet told them to do implies that they cannot think for themselves and is an insult to their intelligence.

That said, I agree with you on a lot of your other points, such as Long Fangs with Missiles still being awesome and Blood Claws not being terrible.

To say that all competitive Space Wolves players run what they run because that's what the internet told them to do implies that they cannot think for themselves and is an insult to their intelligence.

I agree to a point, but when you go to a GT and a third of the room is playing counts as SW with the exact same units spammed over and over (and Kopach was not the first to do this, to be fair), its pretty obvious that there is some group think going on somewhere. For all of their faults, you could pick five GK lists out at a GT and they would all look and play different (except the Draigowing guys, but they can suck it) from each other. Before 6th, Crons worked a lot of different ways, too, but with FNP Terms and Missile spam still being the rule of the day, they are in a state similar to Eldar at the tail end of 4th where hiding their men in a transport is the safest place to be.

As far as the missile spam vs the release of the nid book goes, on the west coast the missile spam escalation started as a direct metagame reaction to the Razorspam armies people started fielding which was about the same time the new Nids hit the shelves. Plus synapse stopped giving eternal warrior when the new book came out at the same time, so it was a double whammy for warriors. In fact the amount of S8-10 that was spammed at that point was positively ridiculous and since most of it had AP3 and Jaws was in the metagame, it made large chunks of the Nid book completely unplayable.

Ah ok. I was unaware that everyone was doing counts as in a tournament, that just implies that they're taking Wolves simply because they like the look of a list that they've seen on the internet rather than actually looking through the Codex and deciding for themselves what is good and why.