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 Surtur wrote:
Non-primarchs can have other purposes. GW hasn't made primarchs since rogue trader.

Oh please. Let's be honest here, the not-primarch models are intended to be used as 40k primarchs. The people making them know it, the people buying them know it, and calling your Leman Russ model "Space Commander in Wolf Fursuit" is just your attempt to do barely enough to keep the GW lawyers away. Whether or not it's legal it's still ripping off GW's IP.

And whether or not GW is actively making the models or not they're still characters in GW's IP. They have every right to keep the concept for their own later use, and now guess what, FW is making official primarch models.

Preventing sales of their own product is a new strategy they implemented, that nobody has ever heard, of called, intentionally shooting yourself in the foot.

The idea is supposedly to defend the physical retail store and avoid having an online discounter selling everything at 30% off with a site that's as easy to use as GW's own. But, like I said, I'm not saying it's the best idea, just that it has nothing to do with threatening to bankrupt anyone who puts a shopping cart for GW products on their website.

 insaniak wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
It's a good comparison because 40k doesn't have a skirmish-scale game.

Er... that's exactly what makes it a bad comparison.

If someone says 'I want to buy a truck, but don't want to pay for a Mack, what's a good alternative?' is offering a Mini as an alternative in any way relevant?

A skirmish game is not an alternative to 40K. It's a completely different style of game. Yes, you can say that a skirmish game is cheaper to buy into... but that's really a bit of a 'Derr, really?' observation. Buying a single text book is also generally cheaper than buying an entire set of Encyclopedias.

Your point only makes sense because you've introduced an artificial choice between battle games and skirmish games (or cars and trucks). If the choice is miniature games of any type (or a vehicle of any type) then none of that matters. Do people want to play battle games, or do they generally want to play with toy soldiers? Probably a bit of both, but I would suggest the over-riding interest is social competition and the majority of consumers will not make the distinction between sub-genres within miniature games.

As for £/model versus total cost, well people tend to have lumps of disposable income so whilst £/model might be a factor in evaluating relative value between companies/games, what their total pot for buying miniature games will get them, and how quickly it will get them to the sweet spot for playing that game are more important - at least for older players.

sigh...

do we really need to have this conversation again?

Look, plain and simple, Warmachine is cheaper to get into...it just is, I could run the numbers, but other people in the thread have already done it, so I won't waste your time.

To deny that this is case is pure, unadulterated fanboyism... But here is the thing...who cares! If you prefer 40k, awesome, great! Have fun playing the game you love. Just because a games cheaper doesn't mean that it's inherently better.

We, as a hobby, need to get away from this us vs. them mentality...we are all a bunch of big dorks that like pushing toy soldiers around a bit of felt. Embrace it, there's no reason that that gamers can't get along. If you hold a grudge against a certain company, that grudge doesn't need to carry over to the people who play that company's game...everyone likes what they like...move on, you'll be a happier person for it.

Around here, both are bloody expensive as hell.

They both are not cheap, lets face it. WarmaHordes tend to cost ~ 10-15 pounds for one solo model and then there are boxes of units which cost approximately the same as GW (10 models for 16- 30 pounds). Three Menoth Exemplar Vengers cost around the same as the box of Space Wolves Thunderwolf Cavalry (which contains three models either). I am by no way a GW fanboy and although I continue to buy their stuff I do it wisely. often searching for discounted products or second-hand market, but getting into W/H is not much cheaper than buying a new army.
Now, Flames of War with third party models - that's the cheapest wargame so far - for ~100 pounds You can get Yourself 1500-1750 points army.

 Tronbot2600 wrote:
sigh...

do we really need to have this conversation again?

Look, plain and simple, Warmachine is cheaper to get into...it just is, I could run the numbers, but other people in the thread have already done it, so I won't waste your time.

To deny that this is case is pure, unadulterated fanboyism... But here is the thing...who cares! If you prefer 40k, awesome, great! Have fun playing the game you love. Just because a games cheaper doesn't mean that it's inherently better.

We, as a hobby, need to get away from this us vs. them mentality...we are all a bunch of big dorks that like pushing toy soldiers around a bit of felt. Embrace it, there's no reason that that gamers can't get along. If you hold a grudge against a certain company, that grudge doesn't need to carry over to the people who play that company's game...everyone likes what they like...move on, you'll be a happier person for it.

Exalted and I really can't quote you enough to show how much I agree with you. Just play whatever you like for whatever reason you wan't it really is nobody's business but yours!

I just checked what my 2 Protectorate 50 pts (the big tournament format) tournament armies cost in GBP from Maelstrom. Not taking advantage of any box deals, it come down to 325 GBP. This includes quite a few pricey models such as the Battle Engine, and (if you are handy with magnets) both Menoth chassis heavy warjack kits. The two armies are based on my rather extensive collection and I just re-use 1 jack, 1 unit and 1 solo between the two builds, meaning I buy close to the maximum. This in one of the more model-rich factions for the game.

I'm not sure if it is expensive compared to other systems, but for me, it is more a matter of the quality of the rules than anything else. WM/H brought me back into miniatures gaming after a decade, although I had been looking at different games in that period without finding anything. I would not mind price competition bringing the figure prices down, though. They certainly can be a barrier of entry into the miniatures wargames hobby.

 Peregrine wrote:


Let's be honest here, the Chapterhouse lawsuit is entirely justified ethically even if legally speaking it's a laughable mess. Chapterhouse is doing little more than ripping off GW's ideas and selling them, they're a parasite on GW and we'd be better off if the owner took the decent way out and voluntarily shut down the company.

Except GW has been parasitic on OTHER PEOPLE'S ideas, and hasnt proven in court that they actually OWN the ideas. In fact so far they have demostrated by quitely dropping claims here and there that they dont own what they are suing for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Milisim wrote:
.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Right but my main point was that is how warmachine is being presented to new players. As cheaper, when in reality it is not.

I can simply play Kill team in 40k.... I can spend $50 there as well.

So the $$$ argument is moot in most cases.

Except, there are no kill team rules, and they wont work in 6th edition rules.

If you base your decisions in life on which one is cheaper you will be disappointed with what you get almost every time. That being said, 40k is just cooler than the rest. I've never considered getting into any other miniature wargames simply because they have no appeal to me. The setting, history, novels, artwork, miniatures, etc of 40k are so vast and immersive that I see most of the start up miniwargames (PP included) to be cartoony and silly or just downright offensive. Threads like this are what perpetuate the "mine is better" attitude. It almost seems like anyone who "used to play 40k" and now plays other games is determined to tear down the game they used to play rather than simply moving on to what they enjoy and leaving us be.

It's the same way in stores. I wander around and check out what everyone is playing in any store I go into and without exception the "play like you gotta pair" folks are always attempting to exclude or demean 40k players. I also don't see many PP players that picked that as their first mini wargame... it's usually some jaded 40k player with a chip on their shoulder and an intense hatred of GW for whatever reason. I always show interest in other peoples hobbies and about half the time I am surprised to get the Comic Book Guy response of "oh you play THAT game... worst... game... ever..." and I just walk away.

On the subject of IP, I believe that there are no truly original ideas anymore so I don't care who made the thing that looks like my model first... I spend my time enjoying my hobby and models, not analyzing their origins and legal history.

 Peregrine wrote:


1) They aren't 40k. If you're a new player and want to play 40k it doesn't really help to say "hey go play BFG it's cheap". Nor does it help to say "go play a game of poorly equipped gangs scavenging to survive in the hive city" when they want to play a game of "heroic gods of combat fighting to the death to purge the galaxy of the xenos and the heretic".

and

2) Nobody plays them. I don't care if you're lucky enough to have a friend who likes to play the niche games, if you go into your FLGS on 40k night nobody is going to be playing Necromunda/BFG/whatever. You either bring a 1000-2000 point 40k army or you don't even bother showing up.

1) Games that use the stock 40k models are closer to 40k than games which use totally different models. 28mm =I=munda and Kill team are lumped in with 40k as you can play it without all new models in most circumstances.

2)Nobody plays them in your personal bubble where you are forging your anti-GW narrative. Lots of people do play them, and lots of people do play smaller point 40k games. My local GW is almost exclusively 500 points or less primarily because the owner is promoting building of armies, learning 6th edition and 4x4 tables. It is very fun to pop in, play a quick game or two without lugging a whole army and go home. Just because where *YOU* play the battlelines have been drawn that GW players are playing massive games or go home and PP players are playing tiny little games doesn't mean it is reality. There is a FLGS near me who plays massive Warmachine games all the time. No one is ever playing 15 point PP games ever so this idea that somehow you can make a tiny investment and play with the big boys and be complete with PP is simply not reality for a lot of people.

The companies are the exact same, the prices are the exact same, the games are the exact same, and you guys are pawns waging an imaginary war for gamers to join your force to hopefully exterminate the other camp from your FLGS so you can have more people to play against. And you guys do it through misinformation and backhanded snotty insults. The truth is no one is going to quit one game and go to the other over actions like that. All the semantic acrobatics is not going to convince me that one 10$ model is cheaper than another 10$ model which is the only thing that matters.

Maybe you should talk to your group about playing smaller 40k, lots of people do it? Or does them playing1850 40k help you with your race war to exterminate new players who may like 40k over Warmachine?

Propaganda is just that. Your problems seem local to your FLGS and are not at all valid for all players situations.

Mohoc wrote:

6) I have a lot more friends in the 40K community and the community is a lot more accepting at teaching new players, while the PP guys tend to isolate themselves, pretending to look down on the 40K players

Ok, I actually play at the same store that Mohoc does, and I kind of have to agree. With a few notable exceptions, the PP players around here do come off as kind of elitist and have a superior attitude towards non-PP players. Some of the PP players also get into some of the other skirmish games like Malifaux and Dark Age, but I'd say at least half of them are into PP almost exclusively. We used to have a much larger active PP game group at the FLGS, but they've almost totally dried up over the last few years. That's odd because the store owner has a quite large Menoth army.

There is one specific guy in the PP group that is very inclusive and always inviting people to play, but I'm pretty sure he's a Press Ganger, so that's to be expected. The other guys tend to not be very outgoing towards people not part of their PP play group.

Now, this is just an anecdotal situation at one particular store in North Metro Atlanta, not an indictment on PP players worldwide. I think it has a lot to do with the individuals we have. The game store has a gaming club, and none of the avid PP players actively participate in the club or run for officer positions. I believe there is one guy in an officer position that plays WM/H, but he also plays just about everything else, too, having 40K, WHFB, Dark Age, Malifaux, MtG, and board games, too. I think our local store perception of PP games would improve if there were more of an active casual and engaging group of PP players here to help grow interest in the game.

Anyway, that's a bit off topic, but I wanted to back up Mohoc so that people didn't think his opinion was out of line; his experience mirror my own.

For me it is versatility of the game, not price.

I like 40k fluff, but it eventually lost me as a player.

I like WM/H for the mechanics and how versatile it is on a per warcaster/warlock basis.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Buzzsaw wrote:
in at least one case they have tried to outright destroy a company with an extremely questionable lawsuit. They have, put simply, attempted to destroy other peoples' livelihoods

Let's be honest here, the Chapterhouse lawsuit is entirely justified ethically even if legally speaking it's a laughable mess. Chapterhouse is doing little more than ripping off GW's ideas and selling them, they're a parasite on GW and we'd be better off if the owner took the decent way out and voluntarily shut down the company.

No offense, Peregrine, but your post clearly indicates that you haven't been keeping up with the suit at all. Just for an example, the court proceedings thus far seem to indicate that GW doesn't even own the "ideas" you claim Chapterhouse is "ripping off." I suggest reading the linked thread in it's entirety, including the interpretations given by the small group of actual attorneys who have been following the thread.

nkelsch wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:


1) They aren't 40k. If you're a new player and want to play 40k it doesn't really help to say "hey go play BFG it's cheap". Nor does it help to say "go play a game of poorly equipped gangs scavenging to survive in the hive city" when they want to play a game of "heroic gods of combat fighting to the death to purge the galaxy of the xenos and the heretic".

and

2) Nobody plays them. I don't care if you're lucky enough to have a friend who likes to play the niche games, if you go into your FLGS on 40k night nobody is going to be playing Necromunda/BFG/whatever. You either bring a 1000-2000 point 40k army or you don't even bother showing up.

1) Games that use the stock 40k models are closer to 40k than games which use totally different models. 28mm =I=munda and Kill team are lumped in with 40k as you can play it without all new models in most circumstances.

2)Nobody plays them in your personal bubble where you are forging your anti-GW narrative. Lots of people do play them, and lots of people do play smaller point 40k games. My local GW is almost exclusively 500 points or less primarily because the owner is promoting building of armies, learning 6th edition and 4x4 tables. It is very fun to pop in, play a quick game or two without lugging a whole army and go home. Just because where *YOU* play the battlelines have been drawn that GW players are playing massive games or go home and PP players are playing tiny little games doesn't mean it is reality. There is a FLGS near me who plays massive Warmachine games all the time. No one is ever playing 15 point PP games ever so this idea that somehow you can make a tiny investment and play with the big boys and be complete with PP is simply not reality for a lot of people.

The companies are the exact same, the prices are the exact same, the games are the exact same, and you guys are pawns waging an imaginary war for gamers to join your force to hopefully exterminate the other camp from your FLGS so you can have more people to play against. And you guys do it through misinformation and backhanded snotty insults. The truth is no one is going to quit one game and go to the other over actions like that. All the semantic acrobatics is not going to convince me that one 10$ model is cheaper than another 10$ model which is the only thing that matters.

Maybe you should talk to your group about playing smaller 40k, lots of people do it? Or does them playing1850 40k help you with your race war to exterminate new players who may like 40k over Warmachine?

Propaganda is just that. Your problems seem local to your FLGS and are not at all valid for all players situations.

There can be only one....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRWH_seUNRo

 Peregrine wrote:
Oh, the poor not-primarch manufacturers. Perhaps if they had real talent they should make their own product and stop making thinly-veiled ripoffs of GW's ideas? GW has every right to stop a competing company from making use of their IP and selling models that GW intend to produce themselves.

You're demonstrating a lack of understanding of how IP law works.

GW has no IP protection of a model they "intend to produce." The protection doesn't exist until there is an actual product.

I have to wonder if you have a problem with GW ripping off Moorcock's IP for the entire concept of Order vs Chaos? Or his IP for the eight pointed star being a symbol of Chaos? Or Heinlein for the idea of power armor, or Smith or Olsen's concept of "space marines" from the 1930's. How about the blatant use of Elves, Dwarves, Orks, Halflings, etc. from Tolkien? Dragons from ancient Germanic literature? Tyranids, specifically Gene Stealers, which are thinly veiled imitations of Alien 1-3? Necrons, which were originally almost duplicates in appearance to Terminator?

I could go on, as could just about anyone else who has played GW games since the late 1980's. My only point is that IP protections don't really work the way you seem to think they do.

Saldiven wrote:

Mohoc wrote:

6) I have a lot more friends in the 40K community and the community is a lot more accepting at teaching new players, while the PP guys tend to isolate themselves, pretending to look down on the 40K players

Ok, I actually play at the same store that Mohoc does, and I kind of have to agree. With a few notable exceptions, the PP players around here do come off as kind of elitist and have a superior attitude towards non-PP players. Some of the PP players also get into some of the other skirmish games like Malifaux and Dark Age, but I'd say at least half of them are into PP almost exclusively. We used to have a much larger active PP game group at the FLGS, but they've almost totally dried up over the last few years. That's odd because the store owner has a quite large Menoth army.

There is one specific guy in the PP group that is very inclusive and always inviting people to play, but I'm pretty sure he's a Press Ganger, so that's to be expected. The other guys tend to not be very outgoing towards people not part of their PP play group.

Now, this is just an anecdotal situation at one particular store in North Metro Atlanta, not an indictment on PP players worldwide. I think it has a lot to do with the individuals we have. The game store has a gaming club, and none of the avid PP players actively participate in the club or run for officer positions. I believe there is one guy in an officer position that plays WM/H, but he also plays just about everything else, too, having 40K, WHFB, Dark Age, Malifaux, MtG, and board games, too. I think our local store perception of PP games would improve if there were more of an active casual and engaging group of PP players here to help grow interest in the game.

Anyway, that's a bit off topic, but I wanted to back up Mohoc so that people didn't think his opinion was out of line; his experience mirror my own.

I have been to shops where the opposite is true as well. There's been a couple of shops where it was the GW players who isolate and alienate themselves from those who play "other" games. Again, this is just me, and one or two isolated stores, YMMV (obviously).


I guess that I am lucky to have such an "open minded" gaming group. When we recently all decided we'd had enough of price increases from GW we all independently searched out different games. And thus far, everyone has been at least keen to try each others found "preferred" game

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

Mohoc wrote:

6) I have a lot more friends in the 40K community and the community is a lot more accepting at teaching new players, while the PP guys tend to isolate themselves, pretending to look down on the 40K players

Ok, I actually play at the same store that Mohoc does, and I kind of have to agree. With a few notable exceptions, the PP players around here do come off as kind of elitist and have a superior attitude towards non-PP players. Some of the PP players also get into some of the other skirmish games like Malifaux and Dark Age, but I'd say at least half of them are into PP almost exclusively. We used to have a much larger active PP game group at the FLGS, but they've almost totally dried up over the last few years. That's odd because the store owner has a quite large Menoth army.

There is one specific guy in the PP group that is very inclusive and always inviting people to play, but I'm pretty sure he's a Press Ganger, so that's to be expected. The other guys tend to not be very outgoing towards people not part of their PP play group.

Now, this is just an anecdotal situation at one particular store in North Metro Atlanta, not an indictment on PP players worldwide. I think it has a lot to do with the individuals we have. The game store has a gaming club, and none of the avid PP players actively participate in the club or run for officer positions. I believe there is one guy in an officer position that plays WM/H, but he also plays just about everything else, too, having 40K, WHFB, Dark Age, Malifaux, MtG, and board games, too. I think our local store perception of PP games would improve if there were more of an active casual and engaging group of PP players here to help grow interest in the game.

Anyway, that's a bit off topic, but I wanted to back up Mohoc so that people didn't think his opinion was out of line; his experience mirror my own.

I have been to shops where the opposite is true as well. There's been a couple of shops where it was the GW players who isolate and alienate themselves from those who play "other" games. Again, this is just me, and one or two isolated stores, YMMV (obviously).


I guess that I am lucky to have such an "open minded" gaming group. When we recently all decided we'd had enough of price increases from GW we all independently searched out different games. And thus far, everyone has been at least keen to try each others found "preferred" game

Absolutely, EF.

It really comes down to the people in your local area. Here, the most open and receptive and friendly people tend to play 40K/WHFB. For whatever reason, the majority of the WM/H people just come off as less friendly and open. We actually have a burgeoning Dark Age group because a lot of the players are really friendly and inviting to new players...it doesn't hurt that it's a pretty cool game with interesting fluff, too. If you haven't tried it yet, give it a shot.

Oh dear god, hotsauceman1, what have you done?

Looks like its "sharpen your 28mm pewter spear point and stand 10 paces apart and try and stab each other with your spears time" again.

Still it is an amusing thread.

I like PP, the rules are great, the updates are great, and i'm really starting to like the fluff.

For me it's cheaper, I'm in aus, i'd hate to think what a 2000 point army of orks would cost, I may as well buy a car instead. :/

 Tronbot2600 wrote:
sigh...

do we really need to have this conversation again?

Look, plain and simple, Warmachine is cheaper to get into...it just is, I could run the numbers, but other people in the thread have already done it, so I won't waste your time.

To deny that this is case is pure, unadulterated fanboyism... But here is the thing...who cares! If you prefer 40k, awesome, great! Have fun playing the game you love. Just because a games cheaper doesn't mean that it's inherently better.

We, as a hobby, need to get away from this us vs. them mentality...we are all a bunch of big dorks that like pushing toy soldiers around a bit of felt. Embrace it, there's no reason that that gamers can't get along. If you hold a grudge against a certain company, that grudge doesn't need to carry over to the people who play that company's game...everyone likes what they like...move on, you'll be a happier person for it.

*slow clap*.

I agree. I feel that these arguements lose their luster real quick.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
From what I've seen, a Privateer Press tournament level army is cheaper to purchase than a GW tournament level. The point systems are different, but the PP ones are still cheaper on a tournament level comparison. Individual model wise, Privateer (and a few other companies) are more expensive than GW. However GW keeps raising army sizes while lowering unit costs, so players have to buy more to maintain. So it depends on what level you're comparing. Individual or tournament army? Individual, GW is cheaper (scary to believe). Army-wise, PP wins.

The thread really should have ended here. The bolded part is key.

Though I find PP doesn't have the mean spiritedness you get from GW as well.

 BladeWalker wrote:
If you base your decisions in life on which one is cheaper you will be disappointed with what you get almost every time. That being said, 40k is just cooler than the rest. I've never considered getting into any other miniature wargames simply because they have no appeal to me. The setting, history, novels, artwork, miniatures, etc of 40k are so vast and immersive that I see most of the start up miniwargames (PP included) to be cartoony and silly or just downright offensive.

Opinions

Threads like this are what perpetuate the "mine is better" attitude. It almost seems like anyone who "used to play 40k" and now plays other games is determined to tear down the game they used to play rather than simply moving on to what they enjoy and leaving us be.

You just perpetuated the mine is better what with the 40k is cooler and other wargames are cartoony, silly or offensive remark.

It's the same way in stores. I wander around and check out what everyone is playing in any store I go into and without exception the "play like you gotta pair" folks are always attempting to exclude or demean 40k players. I also don't see many PP players that picked that as their first mini wargame... it's usually some jaded 40k player with a chip on their shoulder and an intense hatred of GW for whatever reason. I always show interest in other peoples hobbies and about half the time I am surprised to get the Comic Book Guy response of "oh you play THAT game... worst... game... ever..." and I just walk away.

I see many a GW player with the exact same attitude towards other games. These people are not exclusive to one wargame.

 Surtur wrote:

 BladeWalker wrote:
If you base your decisions in life on which one is cheaper you will be disappointed with what you get almost every time. That being said, 40k is just cooler than the rest. I've never considered getting into any other miniature wargames simply because they have no appeal to me. The setting, history, novels, artwork, miniatures, etc of 40k are so vast and immersive that I see most of the start up miniwargames (PP included) to be cartoony and silly or just downright offensive.

Opinions

Threads like this are what perpetuate the "mine is better" attitude. It almost seems like anyone who "used to play 40k" and now plays other games is determined to tear down the game they used to play rather than simply moving on to what they enjoy and leaving us be.

You just perpetuated the mine is better what with the 40k is cooler and other wargames are cartoony, silly or offensive remark.

Heh, I always find the defense of GW games on the background perplexing, as I find the universe incredibly derivative, juvenile and cliched. Both in aesthetic and tone, it has always struck me as being a creature of the mid-80's "it's dark therefore it's deep", analogous to the Dark Age of Comics.

Now, that's not to say dark need be bad (indeed, the Dark Age started on the strength of fantastic works like Watchmen, The Dark Knight Returns, Batman: Year One and The Killing Joke), but there is a very particular tone some of these things works have that dates them, and GW has it in spades. Albeit, they either don't recognize that they do, don't care, or think that it's a plus.

In any case, arguing that one game system is cooler then another has all the rhetorical heft of claiming that Mars is superior to Venus because it's red.

I find the whole "my game is better/cheaper than your game" nonesense very tiresome.

Play what you like. But I really don't see the need to speak crap about a game because you've chosen to play another.

There is no 'Better' game, just the one you like.

 Ugavine wrote:
I find the whole "my game is better/cheaper than your game" nonesense very tiresome.

Play what you like. But I really don't see the need to speak crap about a game because you've chosen to play another.

There is no 'Better' game, just the one you like.

I think that you can base an argument in fact, with "cheaper" however, I do agree... No game is better than another based on these sorts of arguments. Personally, my main games right now are Hell Dorado, and moreso, Malifaux. Every game on the face of the earth has positives and negatives associated with them.

Also, I think we should consider that what may be expensive for one person, is a "throw away" item to another.

 Surtur wrote:

 BladeWalker wrote:
If you base your decisions in life on which one is cheaper you will be disappointed with what you get almost every time. That being said, 40k is just cooler than the rest. I've never considered getting into any other miniature wargames simply because they have no appeal to me. The setting, history, novels, artwork, miniatures, etc of 40k are so vast and immersive that I see most of the start up miniwargames (PP included) to be cartoony and silly or just downright offensive.

Opinions

Threads like this are what perpetuate the "mine is better" attitude. It almost seems like anyone who "used to play 40k" and now plays other games is determined to tear down the game they used to play rather than simply moving on to what they enjoy and leaving us be.

You just perpetuated the mine is better what with the 40k is cooler and other wargames are cartoony, silly or offensive remark.

It's the same way in stores. I wander around and check out what everyone is playing in any store I go into and without exception the "play like you gotta pair" folks are always attempting to exclude or demean 40k players. I also don't see many PP players that picked that as their first mini wargame... it's usually some jaded 40k player with a chip on their shoulder and an intense hatred of GW for whatever reason. I always show interest in other peoples hobbies and about half the time I am surprised to get the Comic Book Guy response of "oh you play THAT game... worst... game... ever..." and I just walk away.

I see many a GW player with the exact same attitude towards other games. These people are not exclusive to one wargame.

*slow clap* The thread is PP vs. GW what did you expect?

Statements of opinion as opinions, not fact. Of personal experiences as reference. Introduction of facts such as price and business dealings. Discussing opinions of facts, like back ground problems such as Warcaster plot armor or the overzealous hype of certain space marine factions. All of these are points one can bring to the debate constructively without necessarily dismissing or degrading the other side.

2)Nobody plays them in your personal bubble where you are forging your anti-GW narrative. Lots of people do play them, and lots of people do play smaller point 40k games. My local GW is almost exclusively 500 points or less primarily because the owner is promoting building of armies, learning 6th edition and 4x4 tables. It is very fun to pop in, play a quick game or two without lugging a whole army and go home. Just because where *YOU* play the battlelines have been drawn that GW players are playing massive games or go home and PP players are playing tiny little games doesn't mean it is reality. There is a FLGS near me who plays massive Warmachine games all the time. No one is ever playing 15 point PP games ever so this idea that somehow you can make a tiny investment and play with the big boys and be complete with PP is simply not reality for a lot of people.

And with respect, just because people play small games where *YOU* play doesnt make it the reality either. (dont worry mate, im not having a go! ) In any place i've played, for example, between ireland and the UK, its been 1500-200pts 40k, and 35-50pts warmahordes. thats the standard. and as the guy, who in the past has played games no one else had (starship troopers anyone?), i think its important to buy into something with a viable playerbase. i see a fair few bloodbowl games, and bloodbowl leagues, but other GW spec games are few and far between- its a shame, really. there is a niche for it. although judging by the forum comments(not definitive), and my own large city gaming network, i dont see smaller point 40k games as being something a lot of people are interested in. i find PP players are more willing to scale down than 40k players, as PP games tend to be smaller scale affairs, whilst 40k stays as an army level one. never played warmachine:unbound though! i'd lke to though. 150 points of doom reavers!

 BladeWalker wrote:
If you base your decisions in life on which one is cheaper you will be disappointed with what you get almost every time. That being said, 40k is just cooler than the rest. I've never considered getting into any other miniature wargames simply because they have no appeal to me. The setting, history, novels, artwork, miniatures, etc of 40k are so vast and immersive that I see most of the start up miniwargames (PP included) to be cartoony and silly or just downright offensive. Threads like this are what perpetuate the "mine is better" attitude. It almost seems like anyone who "used to play 40k" and now plays other games is determined to tear down the game they used to play rather than simply moving on to what they enjoy and leaving us be.
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opinion. and you're fully entitled to it. Personally, i disagree. Im quite the opposite.

For me, when i got into wargaming, GW was all that. and yet, as i played more and more of the game, i got more and more frustrated. I ended up burning out and had to walk away from the hobby. What made me fall in love with the hobby again wasnt GW, it was PP and the release of WM mk2. I've been getting more and more disillusioned with GW over the years. codex grey knights was terrifyingly bad, and codex necrons was even worse (i was hoping for epic tragedy, i got bad, goofy comedy). And PP have been impressing me more and more. I admire how, rather than "trad fantasy in SPAAAAACE", they're able to take traditional fantasy tropes, and turn them on their heads in very cool, and unique ways. bear in mind, they've been around over 10 years now. Anymore who says their settings isnt vast an immersive simply hasnt been looking in the right places. do yourselves a favour, and have a gander at their RPG books. their worldguide is over 400 pages long. their RPG material is fantastic, and now with the release of the new IK RPG book, its a golden time to go and have a look. And dont do this because GW is worse, or PP is better, or because of any of that garbage. Do it because a bunch of guys have put their hearts and souls into bringing an imaginary world to life. we're all geeks. we're all nerds. Lets all enjoy it.

And im not interested in tearing down GW, 40k or whathave you. you're making sweeping statements. and its not entirely fair. people move on for a variety of reasons. I hit my 20s. i got older. 40k simply wasnt offering me the game that i wanted. its not "bad". its just meant for different people now. But that doesnt mean they can, or should stop having an interest in what brought them into the hobby. as an aside, im irish, living in scotland. using this analogy, i shouldnt keep up with whats happening at home. But i do. Its nice to keep a look in, and see whats going on. Its a part of you, for better or for worse.

 BladeWalker wrote:

It's the same way in stores. I wander around and check out what everyone is playing in any store I go into and without exception the "play like you gotta pair" folks are always attempting to exclude or demean 40k players. I also don't see many PP players that picked that as their first mini wargame... it's usually some jaded 40k player with a chip on their shoulder and an intense hatred of GW for whatever reason. I always show interest in other peoples hobbies and about half the time I am surprised to get the Comic Book Guy response of "oh you play THAT game... worst... game... ever..." and I just walk away.

sweeping statements, again. the newly converted fanboys can be a pain. but to be fair, it goes both ways. you hear enough stories about blind and rabid GW fanboys who refuse to look at, or accept any other games as well. and can be quite hostile to other players. and i think 40k players can be quite demeaning amongst themselves too - "Oh, you play grey knights? lol loser powergamer".

to the OP, on the topic of price, Privateer Press games have a significantly lower cost of entry for their main game, when compares to GW. However, in the long run, it can cost you a lot more. buy the books, buy all the warcasters, start a second faction etc...

I'll be sure to preface everything I say with "This is my opinion" from now on. It's a discussion forum people... opinions are everywhere!

I was commenting on my personal experience with PP vs. GW both as a system and as a player base. YMMV but in 3 different cities in 3 different parts of the country the player base of GW has been welcoming and fun while the PP people have grudgingly answered the tiniest questions while never missing a chance to snicker as they pass a 40k table. Drawing lines in the sand over which game system you prefer is exactly what the OP was talking about and I was representing one side of that line as a GW player. But, again... it's just my opinion.

When my boys get older I can easily see myself getting into Warmahordes with a "captive audience" for home games... but as it stands (based on personal experience) I would not get into PP games for the reasons I stated earlier.

nkelsch wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:


1) They aren't 40k. If you're a new player and want to play 40k it doesn't really help to say "hey go play BFG it's cheap". Nor does it help to say "go play a game of poorly equipped gangs scavenging to survive in the hive city" when they want to play a game of "heroic gods of combat fighting to the death to purge the galaxy of the xenos and the heretic".

and

2) Nobody plays them. I don't care if you're lucky enough to have a friend who likes to play the niche games, if you go into your FLGS on 40k night nobody is going to be playing Necromunda/BFG/whatever. You either bring a 1000-2000 point 40k army or you don't even bother showing up.

1) Games that use the stock 40k models are closer to 40k than games which use totally different models. 28mm =I=munda and Kill team are lumped in with 40k as you can play it without all new models in most circumstances.

2)Nobody plays them in your personal bubble where you are forging your anti-GW narrative. Lots of people do play them, and lots of people do play smaller point 40k games. My local GW is almost exclusively 500 points or less primarily because the owner is promoting building of armies, learning 6th edition and 4x4 tables. It is very fun to pop in, play a quick game or two without lugging a whole army and go home. Just because where *YOU* play the battlelines have been drawn that GW players are playing massive games or go home and PP players are playing tiny little games doesn't mean it is reality. There is a FLGS near me who plays massive Warmachine games all the time. No one is ever playing 15 point PP games ever so this idea that somehow you can make a tiny investment and play with the big boys and be complete with PP is simply not reality for a lot of people.

The companies are the exact same, the prices are the exact same, the games are the exact same, and you guys are pawns waging an imaginary war for gamers to join your force to hopefully exterminate the other camp from your FLGS so you can have more people to play against. And you guys do it through misinformation and backhanded snotty insults. The truth is no one is going to quit one game and go to the other over actions like that. All the semantic acrobatics is not going to convince me that one 10$ model is cheaper than another 10$ model which is the only thing that matters.

Maybe you should talk to your group about playing smaller 40k, lots of people do it? Or does them playing1850 40k help you with your race war to exterminate new players who may like 40k over Warmachine?

Propaganda is just that. Your problems seem local to your FLGS and are not at all valid for all players situations.

nkelsch You are my hero! Everything you said i agreed with 100%

I play kill team, I play death squads , i play 40k in 40 mins. I agree that people are shooting themselves in the foot insisting that its only 1000-2000 point games that matter. NEWS FLASH: you dont have to play 40k that way. My LGS at my parents house has gone nearly pure WM/H because of the view that 40k was "wrong" and PP was better due to the price.

Personally I HATE WITH A PASSION PP models because they just dont appeal to me (I am in no way a games workshop Fanboi either). Steam powered and steam punk arent my thing. Im a sci fi / space fantasy kinda person. Games like Malifux actually interest me and i might pick a box up for christmas. Infinity also has no interest for me. Tried it and didnt like it. Yet when i talked to a PP person he insisted that i was a white knight for GW and i sucked because i couldnt see the amazing logic that the PP corperation had come up with to save our poor souls who were trapped playing GW games. One of my buddies built up a beautiful airforce IG army and now is burnt out on wargaming because people told him how he sucked because he played 40k and not WM/H like everyone else. Not having the money to buy another whole game, left him feeling bitter.

My LGS here at Uni is a mix of PP and GW. Both are played but the store owner pays more attention to the WM/H players than the 40k players. Annoying yes, because he uses it as a day care for his kids to come up and bug us about how we are playing the wrong game and they want to use the table for thier models because "they are bored"

Peregrine stirkes me as such. PP like GW is a company. They dont care about you, Only your money and how they can come up with the next best thing to seperate you from it. If you are gonna spend it, spend it well on something you like.

5 models for 50$ compared to 10 models for 29.99$ I know where my money is going.....even if i pay more in the long run at least im having fun playing the game i want to..

 BladeWalker wrote:
I'll be sure to preface everything I say with "This is my opinion" from now on. It's a discussion forum people... opinions are everywhere!

I was commenting on my personal experience with PP vs. GW both as a system and as a player base. YMMV but in 3 different cities in 3 different parts of the country the player base of GW has been welcoming and fun while the PP people have grudgingly answered the tiniest questions while never missing a chance to snicker as they pass a 40k table. Drawing lines in the sand over which game system you prefer is exactly what the OP was talking about and I was representing one side of that line as a GW player. But, again... it's just my opinion.

When my boys get older I can easily see myself getting into Warmahordes with a "captive audience" for home games... but as it stands (based on personal experience) I would not get into PP games for the reasons I stated earlier.

dont forget bladewalker, this is the internet, and your opinion is always wrong! apparently, haha! I suppose im just offering the same opinion from the other side of the coin, so we're not that far apart!

What i find is that every gaming group that i've went to up here in the UK is different. my main hub is evenly divided between warmahordes, and flames of war. another place is evenly divided amongst 40k/fantasy, warmahordes and bloodbowl. theres a few guys that play dystopian wars too. pretty good atmosphere amongst them all. We all like to see our hobby grow.I've got no problem saying which games i prefer (clearly, warmahordes, and infinity, and dropzone commander is tempting me sorely) but saying "i like/prefer X" is not the same as saying "I hate Y". SImilarly, (and im not going into it here), explaining why i dislike the GW games (or another company) and moved on is not the same as me bashing them, the community, or the company. Im as happy to lay down my criticisms of Corvus Beli and Privateer press as well. I get the impression some people assume ojective comments and reasons are the same as flames. i guess some folks just take this whole hobby too damned seriously. i'll leave those that play GW games to it. quite happily. im quite happy buying GW bitz for conversion purposes, and PP options are quite limited.

For what its worth though, your experiences with the PP community sadden me. We're not all like that. Over here, its all fun and banter. if anything, id argue the rapid growth of the community since Mk2 hit is proof enough that, on the whole, the community is quite welcoming. Its just a shame your experiences differ.