Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

'Collectable' stuff in general is a bit of a con

REAL collectables are items that have enough age and rarity to be desired

Things intended to be collectables, whether they are 'limited' edition plates, penknives, thimbles, comics or miniatures are speculative at best (where the limited edition is genuinely small) or a complete con at worst (limited to however many orders we get)

The other problem with them is that folk tend to take care of them, leading to less natural wastage and keeping the number in circulation high

Hi .
Just to clarify, when Jervis and Tom talk about 'collectors'.They are refering to those people who buy minatures,(mainly because of the asthetic value,) and sort of never get around to actualy playing the games.
This makes up the majority of GW plc customers since Kirby 'got involved ' with game development...
(Because the rules are so poorly defined and purpously over complicated perhaps?)

I am sure GWplcs target demoghraphic of 'children' is primarily to suport this short sighted strategy.
GW is 'cool' enough to get 2 years of Birthday and Christmas money from 11 to 16 year old boys on average.
Any other custom is seen as 'suplimentary' by GW plc corperate managment.

And this is why GW plc has to raise prices to compensate for falling sales volumes.
They ARE that stupid, they dont realise the GAME is why Space Marine Tac Squad box set is the best selling product.
IF it was people just buying cool minatures for collecting /painting etc.SINGLE CHARACTER models would be the highest sellers, NOT boxes of rank and file trioops.

Any gamer can see the problems with GWplc current buisness plan.
But GW plc is not realy interested in gamers any more , are they?

Personally I play both but prefer the Iron Kingdoms stuff. But it's down to personal taste which miniatures company is "better". Arguing about it on the interweb isn't going to change anyone's opinion. My suggestion is, play the game you like, or both games if you're that way inclined, and leave everyone else to get on with it.

Deleted my posting. The reason why is that the posting (even though it was a nice posting) was not on target with what the OP was talking about and I did not want to derail the topic to another tangent.

Adam

We seem to forget some of the AMAZING models from the LOTR range, whether they're based on the movies or made up. And the rules are clear, concise and very, very fun. It's a shame the game is dying, but c'est la vie.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
We seem to forget some of the AMAZING models from the LOTR range, whether they're based on the movies or made up. And the rules are clear, concise and very, very fun. It's a shame the game is dying, but c'est la vie.

The problem with that game was the licensing. I don't know specifics, but they weren't allowed to mix with any other GW minis for pics or anything. They were also a different size than fantasy so you couldn't mix and match them. Because of those reasons, most people don't even know how the game plays. I heard it was good, but I'm not paying money to find out when no one I know plays it

I find that the game works best not as a pick-up game like 40k (though it does work well as that) but in scenarios and recreating bits from the books and movies. It's also effective if you and your friends have worked on setting up a decent storyline for a series of narrative games with special rules and objectives. For example, once I played a series of games where goblins were attacking Lothlorien. And what made it fun were special rules and stuff.

The Mines of Moria set really is perfect because to be honest you don't need much more than that to play a decent set of games. Add your own scenarios, maybe get a set of Dwarves or extra goblins and duke it out using the simple rules. You get most of the profiles on the GW website and you don't need points because you'll just know what feels right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be honest, I prefer LOTR to any of the other games that I've played. And I've played Fantasy, 40k and Warmachine. The game just feels right.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
We seem to forget some of the AMAZING models from the LOTR range, whether they're based on the movies or made up. And the rules are clear, concise and very, very fun. It's a shame the game is dying, but c'est la vie.

While LOTR is a good game I never liked the models (or the movies' depicting of them), possibly because I've read those books ever since I learned my first English words and my own imagination supplied the requisite imagery.

Regardirng the issue of what is and is not collectable, is there an actual legal definition? Something that is codified into law somewhere? Or is it all subjective?

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
We seem to forget some of the AMAZING models from the LOTR range, whether they're based on the movies or made up. And the rules are clear, concise and very, very fun. It's a shame the game is dying, but c'est la vie.

That ship turned has sailed long ago for GW. Why they haven't given a damn about it until these Hobbit movies, because then maybe people will actually start caring about it again.

Honestly I'm surprised WHFB has held on as long as it has, and GW actually is still giving it appropriate attention (something I give them credit for).

 Breotan wrote:
Regardirng the issue of what is and is not collectable, is there an actual legal definition? Something that is codified into law somewhere? Or is it all subjective?

judging by various television shows, it is a highly subjective subject.

PP is becoming GW... Wyrd is following the same path.

They all begin as 'alternatives'... then greed sets in and the pretenders step forwards to show their true colours.

Wyrd doesnt even produce nice sculpts anymore.

@AvatarForm: I hope that you're kidding. Wyrd has always been hit-or-miss, but IMHO, the've made great strides recently.

 keezus wrote:
@AvatarForm: I hope that you're kidding. Wyrd has always been hit-or-miss, but IMHO, the've made great strides recently.

Spoiler:

Go easy with those things Keezus, for an instant I thought that you were going to post the Dark Debts box and I really don't need another Malifaux crew at this time!

PhantomViper wrote:

 keezus wrote:
@AvatarForm: I hope that you're kidding. Wyrd has always been hit-or-miss, but IMHO, the've made great strides recently.

Spoiler:

Go easy with those things Keezus, for an instant I thought that you were going to post the Dark Debts box and I really don't need another Malifaux crew at this time!

Lol, I own the Dark Debts box, and trust me, you do need it

@PhantomViper and Alfndrate: I wasn't a fan of the original Wyrd crew sculpts, but I've been trolling their website recently looking for models to use as civies in IK RPG... I hadn't seen the Dark Debts models... effing great! They've really come a long way. Their steam punk crawly things are great as well. Just picked up my first Malifaux figure. A Guild Guard for use as an IK duelist. The standing guy is kinda crap, but the advancing model is fantastic.

Honestly, with GW, I was really hoping that they'd do a clean reboot a-la 3rd Edition with a Big Black Tome for everything. It's the only way to clean up all the stuff that they had leftover from 3 editions worth of messy patches. IMHO, 6th Edition not only doesn't do this, but makes things messier by completely changing the strength values of the core mechanics: Vehicles, shooting and assaults. It's poor games design to alter these core mechanics when the points values of units are "relatively" set in stone. The only reason that things even "sort-of" work points wise is that GW pigheadedly made units pay for shooting abilities, AND assault abilities regardless of whether shooting and/or assault was viable in that version of the core rules. This meant that in a bubble, the legacy shooting units AND the assaulty units were kind of balanced against each other in that they are universally an overpriced useless archetype or a useful archetype. Once new codexes hit, all bets are off. Though reviews I've read on the new Chaos Dex seems to suggest that GW's writers seriously have their heads up their collective backsides as it offers little in gameplay improvements, and serves up a bunch of mediocrity in new units.

Warmachine's PRIME to MKII release didn't change the core mechanics much, but instead removed lots of out-of-activation instances, resulting in streamlined play. The redution of points costs x10 resulted in some odd power balance issues, with units like Black 13th being somewhat too good for their points cost, and units like Greylords being somehat poor for their points cost. Neither would be well served going a full point in the other direction, but overall, PP's wave system serves it well to smooth out the bumps between editions, with Cygnar (IMHO, all finesse with little punch)getting a very powerful model in the last book to help with the army's lack of ability to do heavy lifting.

I am noticing a lot of new skirmish games hitting the market lately. In fact there seems to be a new skirmish game on kickstarter every other week. The issue is that with so many games you are going to see a number of these games fizzle out. The audience just is not there. With the current state of the economy I just don't see too many of these games being successful. The strong systems seem to be GW 40k, PP Warmahordes, Mantic seems to be doing well, Inifinity has a pretty good following, and I am pretty Malifaux is in good shape as well. The rest just seem like massive gambles, and right now you might be hard pressed to find people playing anything but GW or PP games in your area.

Note that I did not mention Warhammer Fantasy...I really think GW dropped the ball with that system. While it might be more popular in the UK it's hard to find a game in most areas I have gamed in here in the US. However that's more likely due to poor rules than anything else.

 keezus wrote:
@AvatarForm: I hope that you're kidding. Wyrd has always been hit-or-miss, but IMHO, the've made great strides recently.

Spoiler:

Damn you! Now I need to dust off my fate deck...

Seriously though, very awesome. I gotta find out if this faction interacts with the existing Asian theme starter...

 keezus wrote:
@AvatarForm: I hope that you're kidding. Wyrd has always been hit-or-miss, but IMHO, the've made great strides recently.

I was excited about this until I tried to assemble the damn plastics.

Tiny, fiddly, and they only fit one way. I'm a terrible assembler. Give me
something to work with!

 malfred wrote:

 keezus wrote:
@AvatarForm: I hope that you're kidding. Wyrd has always been hit-or-miss, but IMHO, the've made great strides recently.

I was excited about this until I tried to assemble the damn plastics.

Tiny, fiddly, and they only fit one way. I'm a terrible assembler. Give me
something to work with!

Wait, those are plastic? When did Wyrd start making plastic Malifaux stuff? And yeah, that Thunders set looks pretty damn good.

They started a few month ago.

What kind of plastic? Is is the "traditional" plastic on sprues like GW or is it stuff like PP uses?

 AduroT wrote:
What kind of plastic? Is is the "traditional" plastic on sprues like GW or is it stuff like PP uses?

It's exactly like GW plastics... High impact, whatever it's called... The details are crisp, the models are EXTREMELY fiddly, I had some issue with assembly of my Hungering Darkness, but overall a very nice step in the right direction. I picked up all the new neverborn stuff at Gencon, and it's been a breeze to assemble (again with the exception of the HD).

 Buzzsaw wrote:
Damn you! Now I need to dust off my fate deck...

Seriously though, very awesome. I gotta find out if this faction interacts with the existing Asian theme starter...

the 10 thunders factions doesn't really interact with the existing Asian starter (assuming you're talking about Kirai), but there is a new asian master for the ressers named Yan Lo, that is both Ressers AND 10 Thunders faction, in fact all the new masters, Jakob Lynch, Lucas McCabe, Mei Fang, and Yan Lo can all work with their respective main factions and the 10 Thunders faction. Then of course, everyone's favorite Asian minion from the Outcasts Misaki got an upgrade to being the first pure 10 Thunders Master.

Lots of cool stuff in the new Malifaux book.

Yep...and I just ordered a new rulebook for a Fantasy skirmish game. I think I am going to be getting out of the massed army thing at this point. Expect to see some fire sales on the Dakka Swap shop from me in the not too distant future.

As too which book I ordered it was the Freeblades rulebook. Did some research and I really like the game mechanics as well as the campaign rules. I also like that any model can pull off a heroic move with luck. I understand that Infinity is the same, but I am tired of the futuristic settings for now.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
What kind of plastic? Is is the "traditional" plastic on sprues like GW or is it stuff like PP uses?

It's exactly like GW plastics... High impact, whatever it's called... The details are crisp, the models are EXTREMELY fiddly, I had some issue with assembly of my Hungering Darkness, but overall a very nice step in the right direction. I picked up all the new neverborn stuff at Gencon, and it's been a breeze to assemble (again with the exception of the HD).

 Buzzsaw wrote:
Damn you! Now I need to dust off my fate deck...

Seriously though, very awesome. I gotta find out if this faction interacts with the existing Asian theme starter...

the 10 thunders factions doesn't really interact with the existing Asian starter (assuming you're talking about Kirai), but there is a new asian master for the ressers named Yan Lo, that is both Ressers AND 10 Thunders faction, in fact all the new masters, Jakob Lynch, Lucas McCabe, Mei Fang, and Yan Lo can all work with their respective main factions and the 10 Thunders faction. Then of course, everyone's favorite Asian minion from the Outcasts Misaki got an upgrade to being the first pure 10 Thunders Master.

Lots of cool stuff in the new Malifaux book.

Yeah, existing Asian starter is Japanese Geisha.

Ten thunders is straight up Chinese Wuxia.

I gave this some though and feel the main reasons why I've given up GW over PP are as follows

No Codex Creep

The whole converstion from MKi to MKii was done pretty much over a year per system - and there was new stuff added that didn't break the game for each faction one a month

No FOTM

When a new books released theres something for everyone - you can debate who 'won' each book but normally theres a few good and a few bad for everyone....

It still has a few ultra competative type lists/casters but nothing silly broken, we have a few casters we don't break out for casuals - there's still a few cheezey lists, but we're straying into 'fun vs competative' and that's a whole diffrent kettle of fish

So far nothings been 'retired'

This maybe infancy issues but in WH I often feel each time a new codex arrives it's designed to rape your wallet and replace as much as possiable....PP adds. Ok this may last only a few more years and eventually they may feel the need to 'shake up' forces....but I feel unlikely.....the revamp to Mkii did have some affect I admit, to me as a Menoth player I'm happy I hadn't brought the skirmishers yet, as they've become not worth the points really and they dropped from top of my list to near bottom....When the new necron codex arrived and I borrowed it I shuddered as to how much I'd have needed to spend

Price

Yeh I got into my army cheep and it grew.....as you add casters, and other units you start to approuch WH levels of cost....but it starts lower and ramps up slower and overall I feel PP still win this one but the addition of bigger models last 2 books is a concern but hopefully that's just a phase

Rules

Are razor sharp, and once you understand the wording crystal clear....

Fluff

Not all grimdark, and possiability to progress, and so far....no back story rapeage, necrons again being my example....last codex, egnimatic duped enslaved warriors under old pwoerful gods, to tombkings in space.....really? Why?

The best thing about 40k story telling, the universe is so vast and the black libary and the books make fantastic reading on some examples....maybe PP will grow into this

...but the first 2 make me back PP all the way - I left 40k not long after they released a new edition which gimped necrons so badly, IMHO, with a simple change.....watching a 12 point necron warrior down a tank was fun.....and was there whole thing, and the moral in CC just tore them apart as their CC unit, sucked, you never took it, so where once you'd wither them at range and then grind and attrition in CC and maybe flank to dig them with a CC lord/small unit......well you'd shoot for a bit then get torn open in CC break run and get overrun