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nkelsch wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Rayvon wrote:

I prefer finecast to metal, i have not had a miscast model for about 12 months now, i think its better than metal in every way.

When did you last encounter a miscast metal?

all the Time. Don't pretend metal had no miscasts as it did frequently. It was just easier to replace metal for a company because the pieces were each on their own mold opposed to a single sprue, and faulty parts could go back into the smelter for literally no loss.

Metals had miscasts, but they also lend themselves to better QC.

I also have not had fine cast miscasts in over a year. And the rate of miscasts was about the same as when I bought metals and the level of miscasts of PP and other resin casters.

This is a, how shall we call it? Oh, I know: a purposeful misrepresentation of the truth.

Feel free to give me any links for threads with 80+ pages and actual photographic evidence of GW metal miscasts and PP miscasts in the same scale as GW's Failcrap.

Just for a reference, I'll leave one here, regarding Failcrap, that is 4 months old: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/2640/414690.page

 htj wrote:

Mike712 wrote:

 Eiríkr wrote:
Any hobby can be prohibitively expensive.

I dread to think how much money I've spent on snowboard equipment in the past couple of years.

I'm sure you're getting allot more value from that though, as long as the snow is good!

I dunno, I think I get a lot better value for money from GW than I do from skiing. The pass costs alone are pretty brutal in a cost-per-hour level of enjoyment.

Weather is fickle. What can I say! I've blown over a grand on trips out to the Alps before and the weather forecast//current situation was dire. It leaves quite a sour taste in the mouth; wet snow and ice for a board. Everything has a limit; I find wargaming to be one of my cheaper hobbies.

nkelsch wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Rayvon wrote:

I prefer finecast to metal, i have not had a miscast model for about 12 months now, i think its better than metal in every way.

When did you last encounter a miscast metal?

all the Time. Don't pretend metal had no miscasts as it did frequently. It was just easier to replace metal for a company because the pieces were each on their own mold opposed to a single sprue, and faulty parts could go back into the smelter for literally no loss.

Metals had miscasts, but they also lend themselves to better QC.

I also have not had fine cast miscasts in over a year. And the rate of miscasts was about the same as when I bought metals and the level of miscasts of PP and other resin casters.

You've encountered metal miscasts as an end customer? TBH I don't think I've even heard of any, and I've certainly never seen one and I've encountered many hundreds of metal figures (since before they went to pewter). My limited experience of finecast has yielded a 75% failure rate, that's 3 good figures out of 12.

I don't doubt that metal miscasts have appeared in manufacture, but from talking to casters they get stuck back into the pot immediately and cast again as they are completely re-usable. I also don't doubt that resin figures can be made properly, I own dozens of non-GW figures, so the issue is purely one of QC. But I don't buy the idea that finecast is higher quality or a better product that metal.

Buy an entire army of 1850 points for about 200-300$ on ebay n' stuff.

 Pacific wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

clively wrote:
So, in my opinion: $20 for one little guy is a lot of money. But I will certainly enjoy that model for years whereas a dinner is gone pretty quick and most movies are utter trash anyway.

This is the key difference to other hobbies. That $20 miniature? Forever useful. Even if the game collapses, there's other ways and games you can use them in. New model comes out? Doesn't invalidate your current model at all.

I have a vast amount of miniatures that are sitting in boxes or on shelves, and will be forever unloved (I apologise to them for any Toy Story scenario where they are coming awake during the night and reading this post! )

Sorry I'm being facetious! Although I think reading people's comments above the point is that the perceived value of something is the most important issue. People will hand over money for something if they deem it to be worth it - yes even Sushi for $80, airsoft for $500, to quote some examples above. No doubt many would still purchase a miniature wargaming starter box for $200, should that situation ever occur in the future - many arguments for it providing relative worth would still apply, even in that case.

The problem comes to GW that there are less and less people for whom this perceived value applies - yes there are still many, as this thread testifies (although on a GW-centric forum, they would be in deep trouble if that were not the case!), but I think the number of people for whom that relative value is 'worth it' is reducing.

*snip*

The number of people who can afford this hobby is absolutely reducing. In any industry there exists a price/perceived value curve and GW is adjusting to locate the right place to be on that curve. Well run companies want to be at the top: meaning that they make the highest profit available for the number of units shipped.

As an example, you could sell 1000 boxes of marines for $5. However, jump the price to $10 and you might very well sell 10,000. Going further to $20 and that sales number might drop down to just 1000 again. The interesting part is that most people think that if something is cheap then it's not worth it and they won't buy. The top end is usually capped by those that can no longer afford the product; yes you will find a few fools in the world willing to pay $50k on a box of marines just because they can but the volume would be so low as to not be viable.

Which leaves the middle as a balance between perceived value and ability / desire to pay. Even in the middle there will be some level of lost sales. Both from a lack of perceived value as well as from an inability to actually pay the price.

So the big question for GW is: who is actually buying their product? If it's teenagers, then they have are close to pricing them out of the market. My 17 year old for example is unable to pick up additional models. Between paying for his own insurance, car repairs, gas, going out money and saving for college, he doesn't have anything left over. For him it's more important to see a movie with friends than pick up a box of marines: which is absolutely fine.

On the other hand, I enjoy painting and playing the game with friends and my kids, so dropping $100 a month on this is less than what I spend on pretty much anything else I do. (I have 5 kids, so my grocery bill is way more than that a week...)

For the short term, pricing teenagers out in order to focus on adults with disposable income is an okay strategy. However, they have to be really careful they don't go the way of the railroad hobbyists. What I mean by this is that getting into the train hobby is extremely expensive (think $100+ for a single car). As such only more established adults even bother. This has had a negative feedback that led to even higher prices and fewer people starting. That industry has long passed the danger point and has nearly entered irrelevance as the number of new train hobbyists drops every single year.

There are certainly teenagers that are interested; however, there tends to be a group think amongst them as to what's cool or not. With prices reaching the point of being difficult for younger kids to get into this then they will look at other game systems. If those game systems are similarily priced then they'll look at a completely different hobby altogether and we'll end up with only adults playing.

Herzlos wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Rayvon wrote:

I prefer finecast to metal, i have not had a miscast model for about 12 months now, i think its better than metal in every way.

When did you last encounter a miscast metal?

all the Time. Don't pretend metal had no miscasts as it did frequently. It was just easier to replace metal for a company because the pieces were each on their own mold opposed to a single sprue, and faulty parts could go back into the smelter for literally no loss.

Metals had miscasts, but they also lend themselves to better QC.

I also have not had fine cast miscasts in over a year. And the rate of miscasts was about the same as when I bought metals and the level of miscasts of PP and other resin casters.

You've encountered metal miscasts as an end customer? TBH I don't think I've even heard of any, and I've certainly never seen one and I've encountered many hundreds of metal figures (since before they went to pewter). My limited experience of finecast has yielded a 75% failure rate, that's 3 good figures out of 12.

I don't doubt that metal miscasts have appeared in manufacture, but from talking to casters they get stuck back into the pot immediately and cast again as they are completely re-usable. I also don't doubt that resin figures can be made properly, I own dozens of non-GW figures, so the issue is purely one of QC. But I don't buy the idea that finecast is higher quality or a better product that metal.

Yes, dozens over the years. Pitting, rounding, incomplete formed parts. And you call GW and they send you the part in the mail.

I bought about 40 ultramarine metal shoulderpads from GW which came in blisters which had 5 per cast, and of the 8 castings, 2 of them had flaws for a total of 4 unusable shoulderpads.

The difference is casters are able to cast a 5-part model 100 times in metal molds, and then match together 5 good pieces... finecast puts all 5 pieces on one sprue and one flaw ruins the entire sprue. If they cased each piece individually and then packed blisters with 5 good pieces, it would be the same as metal. It is all a QC issue, not material. Resin, Plastic, Metal and even these hybrid resin/plastic like finecast all have their places and are useful in different situations.

The rate of miscasts is off topic.

Going back to the subject, for someone like me who is a veteran, there is a massive price shock when you go into the GW shop and see that a single small unit -- say six cavalry -- can cost as much as a 15mm Ancients army.

Wargaming is a cheap or expencive as you want it to be.
Down load some free rules, proxy minatures or cardboard bases for models/units.Play the rules see if you like them...

Full Thrust rules free to down load, 12 space ships from EM4 minatures(£2.50), and a black table cloth from a charity shop.(£4.00)And now add in a bit of painting and terrain making.(Youghurt pot space station etc.)
Great game hours of fun for less than £10/ $20.Is that expencive?

The table top minature game hobby is wide diverse and full of great creativity and social interaction and a genuine force of good .IMO.

GW plc '..are in the buisness of selling toy soldiers to children...'

They are not the same...

- Has war-gaming become cost prohibitive?

GW has certainly become more expensive. When I started in 1993 I bought a box of 10 marines for £4.99, which equates to £8.34 in today's money:

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/education/Pages/inflation/calculator/index1.aspx

However, last week I bought a box of 40 Perry Miniatures for £18, so you make your choice and pay your money :-)

http://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=23_34&products_id=2471

clively wrote:


For the short term, pricing teenagers out in order to focus on adults with disposable income is an okay strategy. However, they have to be really careful they don't go the way of the railroad hobbyists. What I mean by this is that getting into the train hobby is extremely expensive (think $100+ for a single car). As such only more established adults even bother. This has had a negative feedback that led to even higher prices and fewer people starting. That industry has long passed the danger point and has nearly entered irrelevance as the number of new train hobbyists drops every single year.

There are certainly teenagers that are interested; however, there tends to be a group think amongst them as to what's cool or not. With prices reaching the point of being difficult for younger kids to get into this then they will look at other game systems. If those game systems are similarily priced then they'll look at a completely different hobby altogether and we'll end up with only adults playing.

model railroad cars only cost around $20 thank god!, your thinking of engines(locos) that cost $100, the cost has gone up because the quailty has gone up you now get locos with dcc sound(computer chip) fantastic levels of detail and painting,you can still get cheap trainsets aimed at the youngster but i think like all hobbies it struggles to recruit new young followers over games consoles and instant easy entertainment but dcc sound is starting to get them back(go search youtube for dcc sound its great)
as for GW when i first started you got 30 marines for £10 no way i could afford GW for a complete army now but i just got 1250 points of imperial guard using other makers for £60 total and the guys at my local club aren't worried about the stand ins so works for me

 cormadepanda wrote:

 illuknisaa wrote:
Actually wargaming (even with gw prices) is one of the cheapest hobbies. Most game stores have painting tables which are free to use and even more expensive kits are at the console game price range. If you are even slightly smart you can significantly reduce the cost of minis.

The real question is how are people able afford game consoles? Those things burn money like crazy.

hes got a point, a 300-600$ system, plus 100$ in two controllers, plus 10 games from 40-60$ average at 50$ - 500$. totaling at average of 1000$. Can easily hop into warhammer for 1/3rd that.

I really don't think so. For about 250 euros you can get an xbox360. As for games, there are many solutions. From online sales, to second hand and even piracy. If you use a PC the cost while bigger it doesn't seem the same because of the many uses ( even professional, or studying). It's more like buying a multi purpose tool.
War gaming on the other hand, is extremely expensive nowdays. Actually it was always expensive for countries that imported the whole industry and even more for countries where there were limited shopping options and 1-2 stores acted as monopoly. Even without the existing economic disaster I can't imagine any kid having this kind of money to spend. Most of the gamers are guys over 25 years old, with a big percentage over 30. Lets face it. Just for paints and basic tools you need over 100 euros. I mean if you want to do the things right. If you want to be Spartan yes there are solutions for cheaper paints, or a limited range that will probably wont give you the result wished for.

I am in a plasma donation center right now selling my precious body fluids...

These 5 armies arn't gonna complete themselves

 cormadepanda wrote:

 illuknisaa wrote:
Actually wargaming (even with gw prices) is one of the cheapest hobbies. Most game stores have painting tables which are free to use and even more expensive kits are at the console game price range. If you are even slightly smart you can significantly reduce the cost of minis.

The real question is how are people able afford game consoles? Those things burn money like crazy.

hes got a point, a 300-600$ system, plus 100$ in two controllers, plus 10 games from 40-60$ average at 50$ - 500$. totaling at average of 1000$. Can easily hop into warhammer for 1/3rd that.

What crack are you smoking? Game systems top out at about $400 for a 250 gig xbox holliday bundle. you can get them from $200-$300 easily. Come with one controller, a second one costs about $40 maybe $50....games can run from $20 TO $60 depends if you want the latest and greatest new one or pick it up used or even older games that you missed out on, even cheaper if you want to statr assassin creed or halo series.

Cut that total price easily in half to a one third. And I'd LOVE to see the crappy army you are designing for $333. Please also include in that cost the hefty $75 rule book and new and improved $50 hardcover codex. So what great army have you come up with now $208. Please show your math and list of models.

The first is that, in the long run, it will be cheaper than a console, as some of my fellow posters have already posted. But of course consoles are different - if you decide that you don't want to assemble, paint and push toy soldiers around a table for a few hours then that maybe $35+ investment was wasted. With a console, if you don't like a game, you can get a new one and not waste a lot of money.

There's no doubt about it - wargaming is fething expensive. Like, really fething expensive. If you did what I did, this is what you'll be spending (roughly, in Singapore dollars):

35 for starter paint set, 12 Moria goblins
75 for 5 Easterling Kataphrakts
50 for paints
120 for Mines of Moria set with paints
70 for Eastern Invades set (40 Easterlings, 6 Kataphrakts, command)
27 for Easterling set (20 Easterlings)
15 for Easterling Command (captain + banner bearer)
75 for 10 Khandish Warriors
50 for Khandish King, foot and on Chariot
50 for Khandish Chariot
120 for Mumakil
75 for 5 Serpent Riders
35 for 6 Haradrim Raiders
12 for A Storm from the East
12 for Harad

That's 821, a huge amount. This got me about 1,200 pts, a big army for LOTR, but even so, it's ridiculous.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
The first is that, in the long run, it will be cheaper than a console, as some of my fellow posters have already posted. But of course consoles are different - if you decide that you don't want to assemble, paint and push toy soldiers around a table for a few hours then that maybe $35+ investment was wasted. With a console, if you don't like a game, you can get a new one and not waste a lot of money.

There's no doubt about it - wargaming is fething expensive. Like, really fething expensive. If you did what I did, this is what you'll be spending (roughly, in Singapore dollars):

35 for starter paint set, 12 Moria goblins
75 for 5 Easterling Kataphrakts
50 for paints
120 for Mines of Moria set with paints
70 for Eastern Invades set (40 Easterlings, 6 Kataphrakts, command)
27 for Easterling set (20 Easterlings)
15 for Easterling Command (captain + banner bearer)
75 for 10 Khandish Warriors
50 for Khandish King, foot and on Chariot
50 for Khandish Chariot
120 for Mumakil
75 for 5 Serpent Riders
35 for 6 Haradrim Raiders
12 for A Storm from the East
12 for Harad

That's 821, a huge amount. This got me about 1,200 pts, a big army for LOTR, but even so, it's ridiculous.

in 28mm via GW it's expensive, but there are other rulesets, ranges and scales available (i.e. Kallistra does a 12mm fantasy range where an entire unit is about £6), it is just under half of the size of a GW figure though

please how many of you people have an overpriced iphone? Gw is not expensive.
Try smoking-- expensive
Try golfing-- expensive
Try sprue necrons-- cheap

For LOTR miniatures?

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
The first is that, in the long run, it will be cheaper than a console, as some of my fellow posters have already posted. But of course consoles are different - if you decide that you don't want to assemble, paint and push toy soldiers around a table for a few hours then that maybe $35+ investment was wasted. With a console, if you don't like a game, you can get a new one and not waste a lot of money.

There's no doubt about it - wargaming is fething expensive. Like, really fething expensive. If you did what I did, this is what you'll be spending (roughly, in Singapore dollars):

35 for starter paint set, 12 Moria goblins
75 for 5 Easterling Kataphrakts
50 for paints
120 for Mines of Moria set with paints
70 for Eastern Invades set (40 Easterlings, 6 Kataphrakts, command)
27 for Easterling set (20 Easterlings)
15 for Easterling Command (captain + banner bearer)
75 for 10 Khandish Warriors
50 for Khandish King, foot and on Chariot
50 for Khandish Chariot
120 for Mumakil
75 for 5 Serpent Riders
35 for 6 Haradrim Raiders
12 for A Storm from the East
12 for Harad

That's 821, a huge amount. This got me about 1,200 pts, a big army for LOTR, but even so, it's ridiculous.

And no one plays LotR. Try a 40k or fantasy army like that gets played here. Nor have you inlcuded army books, brushes, clippers, knives. Nor is it in the $333 range you CLAIMED that was 1/3 of the price of the $1000 gaming console area.

FURTHER, its not cheaper in the long run. No one builds an army and stops, just liek gamer consoles buy another game, wargamers buy ANOTHER unit. Again and again.

Its not cheaper.

Wargaming is not that expensive, most of my Chaos Marine army came off ebay. I also plan to buy Mantic's Z-Corps from Wayland Games with £80 minis in for £40... it's going to be the start of my zombie cultists.

j_p_chess wrote:
please how many of you people have an overpriced iphone? Gw is not expensive.
Try smoking-- expensive
Try golfing-- expensive
Try sprue necrons-- cheap

Agreed, it's all about spending your money wisely and moderation, if you don't have money for a hobby you enjoy, then don't buy that Iphone 5 or cut back on the amount you spend drinking ect...

Alot of people I know like to go out clubbing most weekends, I bet it's even more expensive for them to go clubbing than me to play 40k, and playing 40k will benefit me in the long run; I'll have a nice army that should last me for ages if I keep it in good condition, would of built up friendships with fellow hobbyists, devolop painting skills, develop my mental maths and tactical skills, whilst still having fun.

Comparing wargaming minis to iphones and golf clubs should be less relevant than comparing them to each other.

So the price of GW minis should be directly compared to wargames factory, mantic etc. Then you can see how high cost they are.

carmachu wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
The first is that, in the long run, it will be cheaper than a console, as some of my fellow posters have already posted. But of course consoles are different - if you decide that you don't want to assemble, paint and push toy soldiers around a table for a few hours then that maybe $35+ investment was wasted. With a console, if you don't like a game, you can get a new one and not waste a lot of money.

There's no doubt about it - wargaming is fething expensive. Like, really fething expensive. If you did what I did, this is what you'll be spending (roughly, in Singapore dollars):

35 for starter paint set, 12 Moria goblins
75 for 5 Easterling Kataphrakts
50 for paints
120 for Mines of Moria set with paints
70 for Eastern Invades set (40 Easterlings, 6 Kataphrakts, command)
27 for Easterling set (20 Easterlings)
15 for Easterling Command (captain + banner bearer)
75 for 10 Khandish Warriors
50 for Khandish King, foot and on Chariot
50 for Khandish Chariot
120 for Mumakil
75 for 5 Serpent Riders
35 for 6 Haradrim Raiders
12 for A Storm from the East
12 for Harad

That's 821, a huge amount. This got me about 1,200 pts, a big army for LOTR, but even so, it's ridiculous.

And no one plays LotR. Try a 40k or fantasy army like that gets played here. Nor have you inlcuded army books, brushes, clippers, knives. Nor is it in the $333 range you CLAIMED that was 1/3 of the price of the $1000 gaming console area.

FURTHER, its not cheaper in the long run. No one builds an army and stops, just liek gamer consoles buy another game, wargamers buy ANOTHER unit. Again and again.

Its not cheaper.

When did I say it was in the $333 range?

Storm from the East and Harad are the army books that were around for Easterlings and Harad at the time I've started. And where I lived, LotR was played a lot.

My point is it's not cheaper. That's what I'm getting at.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Comparing wargaming minis to iphones and golf clubs should be less relevant than comparing them to each other.

So the price of GW minis should be directly compared to wargames factory, mantic etc. Then you can see how high cost they are.

GW minis are not the same as any other companies products. They are the finest miniatures available.

I believe i was the one who said the 333$ price range.

For one that is more then enough to start a army, and get a good 1000-1500pt range. Sure its not all the single priced box set of sexy stuff or the best units, but its a start. for 333$ you can get two box sets of any race. The best box set for points be space wolves or space marines or look for a old army. Or even doing the starter sets, you can get 60 marines for 40$ (i know i did, all dark vengeance) and if 60 tactical marines are not enough for you snobby chain saw riding donkeys then i am gonna have to through you off the band wagon. Point is - for 333$ you can easily even get a 2000 pt s or more if you look for starter kits/split them with your buddy or ebay it up. There is always set dealers. Now for about 220$ you got a lot of models depending on your selection you can get 50-150 that leaves about 60$ for a few paints, brushes and primer. If you argue you cant do it for 333$ for at least already 40+ hours of hobby time then you are arrogant and ignorant and refuse to believe you can hobby/game for cost effectiveness.

 cormadepanda wrote:
Sure its not all the single priced box set of sexy stuff or the best units, but its a start.

Which makes your comparison ridiculous. You're comparing getting the bare minimum to play 40k (and lose every time because you don't have the best units) with the cost to get a console and a complete library of games. Either compare bare minimum to bare minimum, or complete cost to complete cost.

 Peregrine wrote:

 cormadepanda wrote:
Sure its not all the single priced box set of sexy stuff or the best units, but its a start.

Which makes your comparison ridiculous. You're comparing getting the bare minimum to play 40k (and lose every time because you don't have the best units) with the cost to get a console and a complete library of games. Either compare bare minimum to bare minimum, or complete cost to complete cost.

Lose every time if you play optimized lists? or lose some of the time?

 Mr. Burning wrote:
Lose every time if you play optimized lists? or lose some of the time?

Lose all of the time. Battleforces suck, and if your army consists of a couple battleforces you're going to get tabled over and over again against anyone who isn't limited to a couple battleforces.

The Space Wolves and old Chaos Space Marine battleforce don'tt suck too much.

It is interesting to see that at my local club many WFB players do not build units out of individual models any more and now make space fillers in their units made of larger bases with one or two (or less) models on them. This is especially noticeable given that most GW units are made of (cheap?) plastic.

On a related note.
'..we are investing heavly in plastic manufacture to LOWER the ENTRY cost to the GW hobby..'

'...plastic manufacture allows high volume low cost production , we will be able to sell more at a lower retail price and maintain profit...'

All good practice in manufacturing and customer retension.

8 years later...
'Our customers are happy to pay the same price for plastic minatures as we charged fro white metal minatures , as they are easier to work with...'
'.. we have to charge such a high price as not many people buy them...'

Oh dearie dearie me...

ONLY the 'GWplc hobby' is getting prohibitivley expencive.(Doubleing actual cost over inflation at an ever shorter cycle.)

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:




When did I say it was in the $333 range?

Storm from the East and Harad are the army books that were around for Easterlings and Harad at the time I've started. And where I lived, LotR was played a lot.

My point is it's not cheaper. That's what I'm getting at.

The claim keeps coming up its cheaper then a console, including one gentleman that he could get a good army for 1/3 of the console lay out:

hes got a point, a 300-600$ system, plus 100$ in two controllers, plus 10 games from 40-60$ average at 50$ - 500$. totaling at average of 1000$. Can easily hop into warhammer for 1/3rd that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cormadepanda wrote:
I believe i was the one who said the 333$ price range.

For one that is more then enough to start a army, and get a good 1000-1500pt range. Sure its not all the single priced box set of sexy stuff or the best units, but its a start. for 333$ you can get two box sets of any race. The best box set for points be space wolves or space marines or look for a old army. Or even doing the starter sets, you can get 60 marines for 40$ (i know i did, all dark vengeance) and if 60 tactical marines are not enough for you snobby chain saw riding donkeys then i am gonna have to through you off the band wagon. Point is - for 333$ you can easily even get a 2000 pt s or more if you look for starter kits/split them with your buddy or ebay it up. There is always set dealers. Now for about 220$ you got a lot of models depending on your selection you can get 50-150 that leaves about 60$ for a few paints, brushes and primer. If you argue you cant do it for 333$ for at least already 40+ hours of hobby time then you are arrogant and ignorant and refuse to believe you can hobby/game for cost effectiveness.

Really? $333 is enough to start an army? Does it include the $75 rule book, $50 new hard cover codex, paints, clippers, kinves and glue as well?

What starter set goves you 60 marines for $40? No set thats around anymore.

thats like saying I can get a game for $4.75 with tax(I just did that today, for an older game-gears of war 2 BTW). Can you match that? We're not talking about what deals, bartertown, trades you can get. New folks rares if ever know about that stuff early on.

*I* could do it, but I'm a 22 year veteran with 14 years on bartertown, so I know how to wheel and deal. New guys, whether consoles or gaming probably arent going that route.