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 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
And yet, none of the things you described fit into the class weaponry described as artillery. Yes, artillery comes in many forms. It doesn't make a battle tank like the Predator artillery. Please try again. At least you don't have to insert coins, so your failures are free.

Come on now, how will you ever learn anything if you don't complete the homework I set you? Hmm? Once more; cannons, mortars, missiles and rockets are all types of artillery. Fact. Plain and simple. BT have access to these types of artillery, just like they have access to recon and fire support like you incorrectly stated otherwise, and like I clearly corrected you on in my first post. I also see you've glossed over the fact that in the fluff, BT do have access to Whirlwind tanks. It matters little, however, being a drop in the ocean.

Except all of their missile options are direct fire. The lack of any and all IDF is significant. You can try to blow it off, but all you will ever be about that is wrong, haha. Back to being a Couch Commando. That's the only place you will ever win a war.

Direct or indirect matters little in the world of 40K (once again we hit that little snag I've warned you about), where the laws of battle work very differently than in RL. It matters even less to Space Marines, who benefit much more from highly mobile, direct artillery and fire support, combined with calling in bigger, more static guns alongside air support from orbital assets/other branches in order for their all important assaults to hit home. Which is all besides the point anyway, seeing as the missile rack on a Whirlwind is in no way shape or form a deal-breaking piece of SM kit. Especially not with all the other missile/rocket/shell options on hand. Space Marines move fast and hard, they're just too few of them for any other kind of engagement. That's the beauty of my position over yours - I don't need to be anything more than a "couch commando" for my points to be valid in this context. Whereas I see you try and play the "I was in the Marines" card often... it is rarely (if ever) relevant to the discussions at hand, and therefore seldom prevents you from being wrong, unfortunately. I'll happily sit on my comfy couch, winning the war while you march in circles outside.

I just said it was a significant deficiency in capability, and one that drastically limits the scope of their mission profiles.
Space Marines are supposed to be highly flexible fighting formations. Compared to most Space Marine Chapters, the Black Templars are not flexible. This is really very simple. But, by all means, keep arguing to the contrary. It's kinda cute.

And I just said that it's nowhere near as significant or as drastic a limitation as you're trying to make out. Yes, SM are flexible. Yes, not having dedicated scout or devastator troops makes BT slightly less flexible than other SM. It doesn't make them not flexible. And, most importantly, it impacts very little on their tactical value due to both the general MO of Astartes forces and their specialisations. This is simply the nature of the setting, the nature of warfare in 40K. Operation Desert Storm this is not. I think it's about time you let go of that fact and move on (then maybe we can all move on - and you can come inside and join us on our lovely couch), because frankly - and apparently unlike my own contributions - it isn't cute. Sad, maybe, but not cute.

You call out my "mistakes" by making a categorically false statement. What else am I supposed to do about that? I cannot write good posts on your behalf.

You're supposed to learn by acknowledging that you're wrong, allowing the discussion to move forward. It's called having a debate. Perhaps if you focussed more on writing good posts yourself, you wouldn't need to have your mistakes called out in the first place, and therefore wouldn't need to worry yourself with writing other people's posts at all...

You don't actually seem to know what combined arms is. Otherwise you'd recognize that while yes, the Black Templars can be integrated into other forces to create a combined arms environment, the average Space Marine Chapter is a combined arms force in and of itself.

Yet I seem to have no trouble grasping the fact that lone SM chapters are far, far too small in number to operate effectively as a true combined arms force. In pretty much every instance I can think of, SM function as a small, elite, precision strike force, tipping a much, much larger spear. Again, this coming from one who can't grasp what artillery is... hmm, now that is a little cute.

Wow...I just have to say, Veteran Sergeant, you have taken this thread off the reservation. I was never in the military, nor did I ever study military tactics. What I have done is play a table top game and am interested in peoples thoughts about this table top game. I would assume that most people that come to this forum are as well.

For someone who is new to 40k (especially if they are younger), this can be a VERY expensive hobby and choosing the right army before spending a lot of money can be a very important decision. If someone, like the OP, where trying to decide between DA and BT, or even a C:SM chapter, your continued arguments about the strengths and weaknesses of these armies in situations that are not applicable to a 2000pt or less game on a 4' x 6' table with a few buildings, craters, and objectives are not helpful at all. Stating that they seem the silliest because you don't think they would be successful in a real war, doesn't help a new person make a good decision about how they want to spend hundreds of dollars.

You're arguing about the viability of the BT army being able to adapt in a bunch of real world when we are playing with a bunch of 6 legged super insects connected by a hive mind, green neanderthal creatures that understand aerodynamics well enough to build planes and choppers but can't speak coherently (no offense to you Ork players), daemons and librarians that control the warp, lol...and super-humans wrapped in ceramite that live for hunderds of years.

Now to be helpful to the OP, Lawlet, I'd go with Black Templars. They have cooler fluff, their upgrade sprue is a lot of fun to use to put together a bunch of unique looking models. And, who knows, maybe they will get a new codex next year.

As for Dark Vengeance, with a bit of practice, it's not too difficult to scrape/cut away the Dark Angels iconography. With the Black Templars upgrade sprue, you can cover up parts that don't look great. I've converted the bike with the chainsword to a bike Marshall and I've converted the Terminator squad. I even cut off the sword hand (which isn't available in the BT codex) and replaced it with a power fist from the BT upgrade sprue. It turned out pretty good.

BT all the way, though I'm adding an allied detachment of DA to mine, they will fit both having that medievalistic theme. I'm droping the usual DA painting schemes and cutting off all the Native American totems though, hate those.

chadsteam wrote:
Wow...I just have to say, Veteran Sergeant, you have taken this thread off the reservation. I was never in the military, nor did I ever study military tactics. What I have done is play a table top game and am interested in peoples thoughts about this table top game. I would assume that most people that come to this forum are as well.

I made a joke that these clowns took personally because they are crybabies.

They then tried to pretend that they knew something about the military, and have obstinately continued to argue with me despite being dramatically, and hilariously wrong? WTF are you blaming me? I never took this thread anywhere.

And with that, I think this thread is irredeemably off-topic.