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 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Black Templars fight like Doritos. Crunch all you want, we'll make more. While their fanaticism is commendable, their combat tactics, and training doctrines are ludicrous, lol. The Templars need 5000+ Marines because otherwise the turnover that their casualty rates would surely cause would have wiped them out millenia ago.

Fluff wise they're 11,000 strong. did you mean they die all the time game wise?

It's a joke. Mostly referencing their very unrealistic combat tactics and organization. In a real war, the Black Templars would be slaughtered constantly, and their recruits would rarely live to Initiate rank, lol. They have no artillery, virtually no reconnaissance, almost no fire support. They eschew ranged combat in almost every measure, in an era of las cannons and shoulder fired rocket rifles. They intermingle lightly armored recruits in with heavily armored, firepower attracting assault troops to just hope they don't get hit in the crossfire, but almost always do. Everything about the way Black Templars fight makes almost no sense, and gets explained away in these hand-waves of "Armored Spearhead!" (Supported by what? Nobody knows! Who cares? Forward!) and "Drop Pod Assault!" (Supported by what? Nobody knows!...)

The idea behind the Space Marines is a highly trained, highly diversified combined arms force. In fact, it's really the only thing about Space Marines that allows them to make sense in the setting. The Black Templars throw all of that out the window, hoping for thick plot armor to save them. And it works, because GW writes them as successful. But hey, it would be hard to sell models if the Black Templars were the universe's least glamorous army ever, dying in the droves they most assuredly would, and only ever winning by virtue of throwing as much power armor as possible at the enemy. They are the Tyranids of Space Marines.

What you say makes no sense at all....... I am not sure if you just hate the Black Templars, joking about it, or your just making things up.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:Fluff wise they're 11,000 strong.

Source?

Indeed. GW's Index Astartes guesstimates their numbers as "as many as 5-6000, if some reports are true".

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Black Templars fight like Doritos. Crunch all you want, we'll make more. While their fanaticism is commendable, their combat tactics, and training doctrines are ludicrous, lol. The Templars need 5000+ Marines because otherwise the turnover that their casualty rates would surely cause would have wiped them out millenia ago.

Fluff wise they're 11,000 strong. did you mean they die all the time game wise?

It's a joke. Mostly referencing their very unrealistic combat tactics and organization. In a real war, the Black Templars would be slaughtered constantly, and their recruits would rarely live to Initiate rank, lol. They have no artillery, virtually no reconnaissance, almost no fire support. They eschew ranged combat in almost every measure, in an era of las cannons and shoulder fired rocket rifles. They intermingle lightly armored recruits in with heavily armored, firepower attracting assault troops to just hope they don't get hit in the crossfire, but almost always do. Everything about the way Black Templars fight makes almost no sense, and gets explained away in these hand-waves of "Armored Spearhead!" (Supported by what? Nobody knows! Who cares? Forward!) and "Drop Pod Assault!" (Supported by what? Nobody knows!...)

The idea behind the Space Marines is a highly trained, highly diversified combined arms force. In fact, it's really the only thing about Space Marines that allows them to make sense in the setting. The Black Templars throw all of that out the window, hoping for thick plot armor to save them. And it works, because GW writes them as successful. But hey, it would be hard to sell models if the Black Templars were the universe's least glamorous army ever, dying in the droves they most assuredly would, and only ever winning by virtue of throwing as much power armor as possible at the enemy. They are the Tyranids of Space Marines.

Welcome to the world of fiction! We hope you enjoy your stay!

J99Pwrangler wrote:What you say makes no sense at all....... I am not sure if you just hate the Black Templars, joking about it, or your just making things up.

I'm sorry you don't know anything about combat or military theory. /shrug

Not really much i can do to help you. But there are a lot of good books on the subject.

I don't hate the Templars. Heck, I thought they were really cool when I was much younger and they first came out. But, I also recognize that they are remarkably silly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

d3m01iti0n wrote:Welcome to the world of fiction! We hope you enjoy your stay!

If you'd paid attention to the tongue in cheek way I phrased the original post, and the work "joke", you'd get that I am, indeed, enjoying myself.

But crusading through space and purging killer rabbits is a very serious topic. I dont know why youre being so flippant about it.

Well Mr. Veteran Sargeant. I was in the military. So I have a pretty good idea. Its a game buddy. Not everything makes sense. But if you read at all, pick up a templar book. The are not "Doritos" as you put it. They are like any other space marine, they just like assaulting in close combat more.

Emo marines or bunny-killing marines. I don't think it's a contest...did I also mention BTs have great tech marines.

Seems relevant somehow!
Crusade of the Ophidium Gulf

J99Pwrangler wrote:
Well Mr. Veteran Sargeant. I was in the military. So I have a pretty good idea. Its a game buddy. Not everything makes sense. But if you read at all, pick up a templar book. The are not "Doritos" as you put it. They are like any other space marine, they just like assaulting in close combat more.

Well, if you learned anything about combat in the military, you wouldn't have asked me such a silly question.

I mean, hey, a guy in the Air Force or Navy can say he was in the military. Or somebody who worked in supply. They still might not have the first clue about combat.

Like I said, the Black Templars win battles because the writers say they do. How is reading one of the novels going to help? Is there a model where the Black Templars don't fight like Black Templars? If so, then perhaps it offer something useful.

I never said it had to make sense. It was a joke. Somebody, very foolishly, asked me to explain the joke. Sorry if the explanation offends you. It's just kinda the way it is. Most everything in 40K doesn't make sense, and that's fine. Black Templars just make less sense. /shrug

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

It's a joke. Mostly referencing their very unrealistic combat tactics and organization. In a real war, the Black Templars would be slaughtered constantly, and their recruits would rarely live to Initiate rank, lol. They have no artillery, virtually no reconnaissance, almost no fire support. They eschew ranged combat in almost every measure, in an era of las cannons and shoulder fired rocket rifles. They intermingle lightly armored recruits in with heavily armored, firepower attracting assault troops to just hope they don't get hit in the crossfire, but almost always do. Everything about the way Black Templars fight makes almost no sense, and gets explained away in these hand-waves of "Armored Spearhead!" (Supported by what? Nobody knows! Who cares? Forward!) and "Drop Pod Assault!" (Supported by what? Nobody knows!...)

A lot of the stuff you're complaining about is easily explained or is indeed explained in the Codex. They use Land Speeders and Bike Squadrons for reconnaissance. The Armoured Spearheads are described as Predators, Razorbacks and Land Raiders behind a screen of Land Speeders and Bikes. Drop Pods, launched by Strike Cruisers and Battle-Barges (you know, the stuff that Templars have in droves) are supported, funnily enough, by Strike Cruisers and Battle-Barges, as well as Thunderhawk Gunships and Land Speeders.

First off, it's not "complaining". You are complaining. I'm just making humorous observations.


And you still don't get it, because you're still avoiding about 90% of the observations I've made. Probably because there's no answer for them. Look, it's okay. Stop taking it so seriously. It's just a game, and the Black Templars being kinda silly don't make you less of a man. Whining on the Internet about the humorous depiction of your favorite plastic toy soldiers might do that, but the Black Templars being silly will not.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

J99Pwrangler wrote:
Well Mr. Veteran Sargeant. I was in the military. So I have a pretty good idea. Its a game buddy. Not everything makes sense. But if you read at all, pick up a templar book. The are not "Doritos" as you put it. They are like any other space marine, they just like assaulting in close combat more.

Well, if you learned anything about combat in the military, you wouldn't have asked me such a silly question.

I mean, hey, a guy in the Air Force or Navy can say he was in the military. Or somebody who worked in supply. They still might not have the first clue about combat.

Like I said, the Black Templars win battles because the writers say they do. How is reading one of the novels going to help? Is there a model where the Black Templars don't fight like Black Templars? If so, then perhaps it offer something useful.

I never said it had to make sense. It was a joke. Somebody, very foolishly, asked me to explain the joke. Sorry if the explanation offends you. It's just kinda the way it is. Most everything in 40K doesn't make sense, and that's fine. Black Templars just make less sense. /shrug

Wow, just trying to get under my skin, arent you? Ill be the better person then here and just end this conversation.

It's not about being the better person. If you disagree with my expert opinion, then offer your own.

If you're not an expert, don't attack my opinion from the get go by asking me if I hate the Black Templars or I'm making stuff up. and certainly don't call anyone "buddy" if you're trying to be the bigger man.

meh, both their models are badass, their both heavily influenced fluff wise by the knights templar.
although BT didnt have epic heavy cavalry like the DA



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

J99Pwrangler wrote:
Well Mr. Veteran Sargeant. I was in the military. So I have a pretty good idea. Its a game buddy. Not everything makes sense. But if you read at all, pick up a templar book. The are not "Doritos" as you put it. They are like any other space marine, they just like assaulting in close combat more.

Well, if you learned anything about combat in the military, you wouldn't have asked me such a silly question.

I mean, hey, a guy in the Air Force or Navy can say he was in the military. Or somebody who worked in supply. They still might not have the first clue about combat.

Like I said, the Black Templars win battles because the writers say they do. How is reading one of the novels going to help? Is there a model where the Black Templars don't fight like Black Templars? If so, then perhaps it offer something useful.

I never said it had to make sense. It was a joke. Somebody, very foolishly, asked me to explain the joke. Sorry if the explanation offends you. It's just kinda the way it is. Most everything in 40K doesn't make sense, and that's fine. Black Templars just make less sense. /shrug

Couple things here, just cause someone is in the air force of navy doesnt mean that they don't see combat. RAF regiment and the Royal marines come to mind here.
secondly, and this is more to j99p wrangler than anyone else. The fact that you were in a so far inmentioned military branch doesnt mean you know much about combat, I'm not saying you don't and then there have been generals with no idea about warfare. And just out of curiosity, which military branch was it?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Mostly referencing their very unrealistic combat tactics and organization. In a real war, the Black Templars* would be slaughtered constantly, and their recruits would rarely live to Initiate rank, lol.

*If by "Black Templars", you mean "Space Marines, and the armies of 40K in general", then yeah, sure.

They have no artillery

Predators, Vindicators, missile options for Land Speeders, and 5-man Termies w/ 2x Cyclone + TH, and a fair few orbital Starships all say "hi".

virtually no reconnaissance

Bikes, Land Speeders, and a fair few orbital Starships all say "hi".

almost no fire support.

Wow... let's see; all the usual special, assault and heavy weapons, razorbacks, LRs, LRCs, Drop Pods, Dreadnaughts... oh and all the aforementioned options that come with various forms of fire support, including the every 2-out-of-5 HW options for Termie squads, all say a big "hello", too.

They* eschew ranged combat in almost every measure, in an era of las cannons and shoulder fired rocket rifles. Everything about the way Black Templars* fight makes almost no sense, and gets explained away in these hand-waves of "Armored Spearhead!" (Supported by what? Nobody knows! Who cares? Forward!) and "Drop Pod Assault!" (Supported by what? Nobody knows!...)

*Again, if by "they", and "Black Templars", you mean "Space Marines, and the armies of 40K in general", then yeah, sure.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I'm just making humorous observations.

If by "humorous", you mean "incorrect", then yeah, sure.

In summary, your whole "Black Templars" observational effort is actually a misallocation of how the entire setting in general works. Besides, your argument has failed to account for one simple fact: rarely do the Astartes, or any of the Imperiums vast and varied branches of military force, deploy alone. Imperial Crusades, whether they involve Templars or not, tend to be quite large, well supported and well supplied endeavours. Aside from that, trying to bring in RL military frames of reference when talking about this space fantasy, where people still engage in ground campaigns filled with trench-line artillery duels and "fix bayonets! Chaaaarrrrge!" style tactics, instead of sitting comfortably in their space ships blasting the hell out of each other from km away instead, is laughably futile, at best. A certain phrase involving glass houses, and another involving a pot and a kettle, spring to mind.

It's a good job you were "only joking", though, eh?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
It's not about being the better person. If you disagree with my expert opinion, then offer your own.

If you're not an expert, don't attack my opinion from the get go by asking me if I hate the Black Templars or I'm making stuff up. and certainly don't call anyone "buddy" if you're trying to be the bigger man.

Hey buddy, back at your old habits again of thinking you are the bigger man? Lawl expert, if you are an expert you wouldn't have time to pick on internet guys there pal. Why don't you just back off and realize your joke not only was a bad one but you clearly lack understanding of the game mechanics in the first place.

Hate to say this (Wait, no i don't ) but if you want to argue real combat you are the biggest represenation of the exact failure you are trying to mock. You honestly are approaching 40k from a realism perspective? in a universe full of hundred of thousands of super humans wrapped in magical knight armor and wielding guns that have almost more kick than a 50 cal that creates no recoil, serves a dead dude on a throne who acts like a glorified lighthouse in a made up sub-space full of SPOOKY Emotion monsters that fancy the name demons as ... realisitc.



You sir just lost any and might i stress ALL credibility as both an expert of combat and a guy who plays this game casually. Instead you poke fun at things which really is just an ill conceived excuse to project malice at a whole group of people for no reason other than simple poopstirring.

If you want to be a professional please consider politics or a long rewarding career as a Forum Troll elsewhere I hear it's deeply rewarding for someone with priorities like you.
COUNTER-TROLL COMPLETE

Orks are the penultimate beings in the universe, but if I had to choose dem space marines I'd do Black Templar. I am facsinated by the Crusades in history and they seem to be honestly one of the least strange within the 40k universe, they hate for hatred's sake, they persecute and butcher that which wasn't like the Emperor and their Fluff Origins are great not to mention the fact the are THE most numerous chapter in all of 40k with the most experience and expertise in Ship combat. I have faced many black templars and as orks they don't scare me alot, but as i can say i prefer them and everything veteran has said isn't true fluff or mechanically speaking,

I really have tried to like Dark Angels especially since they are so well woven into the storyline of 40k but i just can't do it. their robes look so silly to me, their helms and paint scheme as well. It isn't awful or anything it just... *shudder* it urks me sorta. I think they are a fine army and all they just don't get my love for a reason... i just really can't place to be honest other than aesthetics

Hmmm Teutonic knights crusading in space against the mutants, heretics and blasphemers....... yes I'll have to go with them!

dark angels, i love their look

Black Templars for 2 reasons

1. When you shoot at them they get angry and charge you.

2. The literally have the Holy Hand Grenade what more do you want?


Also some things about the crusades being an interesting part of history, being easy to paint and numbering at least 6x as many men as other chapters.

Once DA get their new Dex in a month, everyone who voted BT will change their minds.....I went with Templars but I run Imperial Fists so...that makes me Biases. However I am building a DA army to fill my allies slot.

Had to vote DA because I have them

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
It's not about being the better person. If you disagree with my expert opinion, then offer your own.

If you're not an expert, don't attack my opinion from the get go by asking me if I hate the Black Templars or I'm making stuff up. and certainly don't call anyone "buddy" if you're trying to be the bigger man.

Hey buddy, back at your old habits again of thinking you are the bigger man? Lawl expert, if you are an expert you wouldn't have time to pick on internet guys there pal.

I'm out of the Marine Corps numb nuts. I didn't forget everything suddenly, lol. A decade is a long time. You tend to learn things in that span.

And I definitely don't pretend to be the bigger man. I just laugh when clowns try to pretentiously claim they are, after insulting me, lol. Look, Kiddo. Just because I am immune to having my feelings hurt by you crybabies doesn't mean I can't recognize when you're trying.

Hate to say this (Wait, no i don't ) but if you want to argue real combat you are the biggest represenation of the exact failure you are trying to mock. You honestly are approaching 40k from a realism perspective? in a universe full of hundred of thousands of super humans wrapped in magical knight armor and wielding guns that have almost more kick than a 50 cal that creates no recoil, serves a dead dude on a throne who acts like a glorified lighthouse in a made up sub-space full of SPOOKY Emotion monsters that fancy the name demons as ... realisitc.

Sorry you suck at reading. I didn't say that 40K had to abide by those rules. It doesn't. I just said if it did, that's why the poor Black Templars would be the Doritos army. Besides, the first sentence of this quoted brain mush ejaculation is so painfully stupid and nonsensical I worry about you.

Oh, and technically, since the bolter uses two stage munitions, they might not have that much recoil. Recoil on modern firearms is caused by the blow back of gasses produced inside the weapon to push the projectile forward. They have to exit somewhere. If the bolter functions in the manner it is described as, it might have only moderate recoil, with the bulk of the propellant forces not occurring until after the round has left the barrel. Plus, they are typically very large and heavy, which is a good counter for noticeable recoil effect as well. The biggest logistical problem of the bolter is probably the size and weight of the ammunition. That's also likely what makes it impractical for use by the Guard, but not as big of a problem for units like Space Marines who wouldn't fall into the same kind of long term mission profiles.

Look son. Like Donny, you're out of your element.

You sir just lost any and might i stress ALL credibility as both an expert of combat

In your imagination. Good lord you are pathetic. I am fairly certain you look just like I imagine you do.

Anfauglir wrote:

They have no artillery

Predators, Vindicators, missile options for Land Speeders, and 5-man Termies w/ 2x Cyclone + TH, and a fair few orbital Starships all say "hi".

Orbital starships are artillery (sorta, but they would fulfill a similar role). None of the rest of those are. Do some research. Regardless, what happens when the Black Templars cannot bring naval fires to bear? What I am pointing out is that the Black Templars are ridiculously specialized with little capability for adapting to situations and environments that remove their principal attack strategies. They can't always armored spearhead. They can't always drop pod assault. What do they do then? What if they come across a situation they have to adapt to? They are drastically limited compared to other Space Marine forces.

virtually no reconnaissance

Bikes, Land Speeders, and a fair few orbital Starships all say "hi".

What about situations where terrain prevents bikes, or conditions prevent land speeders? What if they need concealed, long term observation? What if planetary/atmospheric/space conditions prevent the use of orbital assets? What do they do then? What if they come across a situation they have to adapt to? They are drastically limited compared to other Space Marine forces.

almost no fire support.

Wow... let's see; all the usual special, assault and heavy weapons, razorbacks, LRs, LRCs, Drop Pods, Dreadnaughts... oh and all the aforementioned options that come with various forms of fire support, including the every 2-out-of-5 HW options for Termie squads, all say a big "hello", too.

What about terrain that restricts the use of fire support vehicles? What if you don't have a bunch of terminators to support everybody everywhere at once? They have no organic fire support at the infantry level. And when they do, its employment is hampered by the nature of all the other Marines having only short ranged firepower and a reliance on mobility. What do they do then? What if they come across a situation they have to adapt to? They are drastically limited compared to other Space Marine forces.

They* eschew ranged combat in almost every measure, in an era of las cannons and shoulder fired rocket rifles. Everything about the way Black Templars* fight makes almost no sense, and gets explained away in these hand-waves of "Armored Spearhead!" (Supported by what? Nobody knows! Who cares? Forward!) and "Drop Pod Assault!" (Supported by what? Nobody knows!...)

*Again, if by "they", and "Black Templars", you mean "Space Marines, and the armies of 40K in general", then yeah, sure.

Except not in any way, shape or form. Standard Space Marine chapters have Devastators, scouts with sniper rifles, etc. They have Whirlwinds for indirect fire support. They have every option that the Templars have, except nearly twice as many, in a more flexible package.

This is where you're having problems. You don't think about the big picture. You don't think about all kinds of different scenarios. Three dimensional environments, unconventional warfare, combined arms, etc. The list goes on. Which is fine. You only know combat as it is presented on the table top. Just remember that when you try to argue with somebody who does know these things.

You don't have to find my humor pleasing. Lord knows I'm not trying to make everyone laugh. Just me, and maybe a handful of people who would understand. The rest of you are ancillary characters in my comedy club, and more than welcome to tune it out or leave.

is actually a misallocation of how the entire setting in general works.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Besides, your argument has failed to account for one simple fact: rarely do the Astartes, or any of the Imperiums vast and varied branches of military force, deploy alone.

Apparently, yes. Again though, if the Templars need all of these other entities to function, then they are still less effective than a more "conventional" Space Marine Chapter which has organic solutions for a broader range of mission profiles and theoretical scenarios.

It's a good job you were "only joking", though, eh?

If only you had done half as well as you thought you did. Remember, the effectiveness of typing, and communication in general, is not measured by volume.

Couple things here, just cause someone is in the air force of navy doesnt mean that they don't see combat. RAF regiment and the Royal marines come to mind here.

I said "might not". I mean sure, in any discussion, somebody will bring up Navy SEALs, or the SAS. Which is why I don't say that everybody in those branches. There are exceptions to every rule, and I word everything very carefully so that I do not speak in absolutes in any case where there is a chance for aberration. It's why I'm so good at this, and why these two clowns above are not. If he had any relevant knowledge though, he would have offered it up. Since he did not, it's a fair bet that he he doesn't so I don't feel too uncomfortable about my choice to call him on it.

I personally like black templars more, they have more character than DA.

That said we don't know whats going on exactly with the new DA book, but if it's all bikes and terminators, I already do that with another army so no thanks.

Black templars still hold their own well, you just have to play to their strengths and not copy a list then try to play it.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Orbital starships are artillery (sorta, but they would fulfill a similar role). None of the rest of those are. Do some research.

First, in contemporary usage, "artillery" can mean any number, class, grade and size of shell-firing ballistics/ordnance, including but not limited to; cannons, mortars, missiles and rockets. You said something about research... time for you to do some on the armaments/weaponry I listed. Secondly, GW have little scope for artillery in the true sense (dealing in distances of km away from the front), and have to make do with what can be represented by a 4x6 table, therefore they stick with smaller, simplified things that are what passes for "real" artillery (see, the problem I mentioned before about mixing RL with 40K rears its ugly head again).

Regardless, what happens when the Black Templars cannot bring naval fires to bear? What I am pointing out is that the Black Templars are ridiculously specialized with little capability for adapting to situations and environments that remove their principal attack strategies. They can't always armored spearhead. They can't always drop pod assault. What do they do then? What if they come across a situation they have to adapt to? They are drastically limited compared to other Space Marine forces.

...

What about situations where terrain prevents bikes, or conditions prevent land speeders? What if they need concealed, long term observation? What if planetary/atmospheric/space conditions prevent the use of orbital assets? What do they do then? What if they come across a situation they have to adapt to? They are drastically limited compared to other Space Marine forces.

...

What about terrain that restricts the use of fire support vehicles? What if you don't have a bunch of terminators to support everybody everywhere at once? They have no organic fire support at the infantry level. And when they do, its employment is hampered by the nature of all the other Marines having only short ranged firepower and a reliance on mobility. What do they do then? What if they come across a situation they have to adapt to? They are drastically limited compared to other Space Marine forces.

No, no, and no again. They're not drastically limited at all. Not having Whirlwinds and sniper rifles as a trade off for 5-6 times more of everything else doesn't cause the level of deficiency that you're trying to imply. Not by a long shot. What are they missing from Whirlwinds*... a missile rack on top of a Rhino - oh no! What will they do!? Oh right, they have plenty of other missile options, in far greater numbers. What's that you say? No scouts!? All is lost - everybody knows a Space Marine operation lives and dies by its scouts! Oh wait... no it doesn't, they specialise in rapid assaults launched from their starships. Maybe they need scouts to look out the window and tell them if the continent with the enemy fortress on is below them yet

As for your "what ifs"; first you say they don't have this that and the other as the basis of your argument, and then when I point out your mistake, it becomes "well what if they can't use it". Yeah, same as before I'm afraid - you're taking limitations that easily apply to Marines in general and singling out BT. That's called trying to have you cake and eat it. Tut, tut.

This is where you're having problems. You don't think about the big picture. You don't think about all kinds of different scenarios. Three dimensional environments, unconventional warfare, combined arms, etc. The list goes on. Which is fine. You only know combat as it is presented on the table top. Just remember that when you try to argue with somebody who does know these things.

Uh huh. Coming from one who is fuzzy on what is classed as artillery, and who can't get past the concept of a combined arms force, or what the Marines in 40K are, pretty much exclusively, called upon to perform within the context of the setting... (i.e. yes they can always perform drop pod assaults and armoured spearheads, because in an age where you have starships as your staging post you get to pick and choose the time and place of your assaults, and any BT commander worth his cross will know exactly when and where to strike). Okay, then.

If only you had done half as well as you thought you did. Remember, the effectiveness of typing, and communication in general, is not measured by volume.

Indeed...

*Note on the Whirlwind, the first example of the model you see on Lexicanum is a BT one, and they are pictured on pages 57, 62 and 65 of IA2. Clearly BT have access to Whirlwinds. Oh well.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
It's not about being the better person. If you disagree with my expert opinion, then offer your own.

If you're not an expert, don't attack my opinion from the get go by asking me if I hate the Black Templars or I'm making stuff up. and certainly don't call anyone "buddy" if you're trying to be the bigger man.

Hey buddy, back at your old habits again of thinking you are the bigger man? Lawl expert, if you are an expert you wouldn't have time to pick on internet guys there pal.

I'm out of the Marine Corps numb nuts. I didn't forget everything suddenly, lol. A decade is a long time. You tend to learn things in that span.

And I definitely don't pretend to be the bigger man. I just laugh when clowns try to pretentiously claim they are, after insulting me, lol. Look, Kiddo. Just because I am immune to having my feelings hurt by you crybabies doesn't mean I can't recognize when you're trying.

Hate to say this (Wait, no i don't ) but if you want to argue real combat you are the biggest represenation of the exact failure you are trying to mock. You honestly are approaching 40k from a realism perspective? in a universe full of hundred of thousands of super humans wrapped in magical knight armor and wielding guns that have almost more kick than a 50 cal that creates no recoil, serves a dead dude on a throne who acts like a glorified lighthouse in a made up sub-space full of SPOOKY Emotion monsters that fancy the name demons as ... realisitc.

Sorry you suck at reading. I didn't say that 40K had to abide by those rules. It doesn't. I just said if it did, that's why the poor Black Templars would be the Doritos army. Besides, the first sentence of this quoted brain mush ejaculation is so painfully stupid and nonsensical I worry about you.

Oh, and technically, since the bolter uses two stage munitions, they might not have that much recoil. Recoil on modern firearms is caused by the blow back of gasses produced inside the weapon to push the projectile forward. They have to exit somewhere. If the bolter functions in the manner it is described as, it might have only moderate recoil, with the bulk of the propellant forces not occurring until after the round has left the barrel. Plus, they are typically very large and heavy, which is a good counter for noticeable recoil effect as well. The biggest logistical problem of the bolter is probably the size and weight of the ammunition. That's also likely what makes it impractical for use by the Guard, but not as big of a problem for units like Space Marines who wouldn't fall into the same kind of long term mission profiles.

Look son. Like Donny, you're out of your element.

You sir just lost any and might i stress ALL credibility as both an expert of combat

In your imagination. Good lord you are pathetic. I am fairly certain you look just like I imagine you do.

Anfauglir wrote:

They have no artillery

Predators, Vindicators, missile options for Land Speeders, and 5-man Termies w/ 2x Cyclone + TH, and a fair few orbital Starships all say "hi".

Orbital starships are artillery (sorta, but they would fulfill a similar role). None of the rest of those are. Do some research. Regardless, what happens when the Black Templars cannot bring naval fires to bear? What I am pointing out is that the Black Templars are ridiculously specialized with little capability for adapting to situations and environments that remove their principal attack strategies. They can't always armored spearhead. They can't always drop pod assault. What do they do then? What if they come across a situation they have to adapt to? They are drastically limited compared to other Space Marine forces.

virtually no reconnaissance

Bikes, Land Speeders, and a fair few orbital Starships all say "hi".

What about situations where terrain prevents bikes, or conditions prevent land speeders? What if they need concealed, long term observation? What if planetary/atmospheric/space conditions prevent the use of orbital assets? What do they do then? What if they come across a situation they have to adapt to? They are drastically limited compared to other Space Marine forces.

almost no fire support.

Wow... let's see; all the usual special, assault and heavy weapons, razorbacks, LRs, LRCs, Drop Pods, Dreadnaughts... oh and all the aforementioned options that come with various forms of fire support, including the every 2-out-of-5 HW options for Termie squads, all say a big "hello", too.

What about terrain that restricts the use of fire support vehicles? What if you don't have a bunch of terminators to support everybody everywhere at once? They have no organic fire support at the infantry level. And when they do, its employment is hampered by the nature of all the other Marines having only short ranged firepower and a reliance on mobility. What do they do then? What if they come across a situation they have to adapt to? They are drastically limited compared to other Space Marine forces.

They* eschew ranged combat in almost every measure, in an era of las cannons and shoulder fired rocket rifles. Everything about the way Black Templars* fight makes almost no sense, and gets explained away in these hand-waves of "Armored Spearhead!" (Supported by what? Nobody knows! Who cares? Forward!) and "Drop Pod Assault!" (Supported by what? Nobody knows!...)

*Again, if by "they", and "Black Templars", you mean "Space Marines, and the armies of 40K in general", then yeah, sure.

Except not in any way, shape or form. Standard Space Marine chapters have Devastators, scouts with sniper rifles, etc. They have Whirlwinds for indirect fire support. They have every option that the Templars have, except nearly twice as many, in a more flexible package.

This is where you're having problems. You don't think about the big picture. You don't think about all kinds of different scenarios. Three dimensional environments, unconventional warfare, combined arms, etc. The list goes on. Which is fine. You only know combat as it is presented on the table top. Just remember that when you try to argue with somebody who does know these things.

You don't have to find my humor pleasing. Lord knows I'm not trying to make everyone laugh. Just me, and maybe a handful of people who would understand. The rest of you are ancillary characters in my comedy club, and more than welcome to tune it out or leave.

is actually a misallocation of how the entire setting in general works.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Besides, your argument has failed to account for one simple fact: rarely do the Astartes, or any of the Imperiums vast and varied branches of military force, deploy alone.

Apparently, yes. Again though, if the Templars need all of these other entities to function, then they are still less effective than a more "conventional" Space Marine Chapter which has organic solutions for a broader range of mission profiles and theoretical scenarios.

It's a good job you were "only joking", though, eh?

If only you had done half as well as you thought you did. Remember, the effectiveness of typing, and communication in general, is not measured by volume.

Couple things here, just cause someone is in the air force of navy doesnt mean that they don't see combat. RAF regiment and the Royal marines come to mind here.

I said "might not". I mean sure, in any discussion, somebody will bring up Navy SEALs, or the SAS. Which is why I don't say that everybody in those branches. There are exceptions to every rule, and I word everything very carefully so that I do not speak in absolutes in any case where there is a chance for aberration. It's why I'm so good at this, and why these two clowns above are not. If he had any relevant knowledge though, he would have offered it up. Since he did not, it's a fair bet that he he doesn't so I don't feel too uncomfortable about my choice to call him on it.

TL DR, oh and pics or it didn't happen

Good thread, would read again.

 Anfauglir wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Orbital starships are artillery (sorta, but they would fulfill a similar role). None of the rest of those are. Do some research.

First, in contemporary usage, "artillery" can mean any number, class, grade and size of shell-firing ballistics/ordnance, including but not limited to; cannons, mortars, missiles and rockets.

And yet, none of the things you described fit into the class weaponry described as artillery. Yes, artillery comes in many forms. It doesn't make a battle tank like the Predator artillery. Please try again. At least you don't have to insert coins, so your failures are free.

No, no, and no again. They're not drastically limited at all. Not having Whirlwinds and sniper rifles as a trade off for 5-6 times more of everything else doesn't cause the level of deficiency that you're trying to imply. Not by a long shot. What are they missing from Whirlwinds*... a missile rack on top of a Rhino - oh no! What will they do!? Oh right, they have plenty of other missile options, in far greater numbers.

Except all of their missile options are direct fire. The lack of any and all IDF is significant. You can try to blow it off, but all you will ever be about that is wrong, haha. Back to being a Couch Commando. That's the only place you will ever win a war.

What's that you say? No scouts!? All is lost

Never said "all". I just said it was a significant deficiency in capability, and one that drastically limits the scope of their mission profiles. Space Marines are supposed to be highly flexible fighting formations. Compared to most Space Marine Chapters, the Black Templars are not flexible. This is really very simple. But, by all means, keep arguing to the contrary. It's kinda cute.

then when I point out your mistake

I'm still waiting for this to happen. You call out my "mistakes" by making a categorically false statement. What else am I supposed to do about that? I cannot write good posts on your behalf.

who can't get past the concept of a combined arms force,

You don't actually seem to know what combined arms is. Otherwise you'd recognize that while yes,the Black Templars can be integrated into other forces to create a combined arms environment, the average Space Marine Chapter is a combined arms force in and of itself. Which means, it can function in a combined arms environment autonomously, or integrate with another force to create more specialized roles. The Black Templars are only fully capable of the latter. Their ability to operate unsupported is limited to very specific attack profiles. Thus, they are limited.

(i.e. yes they can always perform drop pod assaults and armoured spearheads, because in an age where you have starships as your staging post you get to pick and choose the time and place of your assaults

Gosh, if only this was actually true.

My vote is in for the DA. Cloaks and stuff are pretty neat.

I like Dark Angels, but I'm afraid you will be very frustrated trying to convert the DV marines to Templars. You'd be better off buying regular models and the Templar conversion ki.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
I like Dark Angels, but I'm afraid you will be very frustrated trying to convert the DV marines to Templars. You'd be better off buying regular models and the Templar conversion ki.

yep and if you are trying to do it cheaply look for the basic marines preassembled or in bits on ebay you should find some easy desperate deals and then buying the kit :p