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Happygrunt wrote: The child. They are the ones who will have to live with the choice, after all
By the time that they can make a fully informed choice it would be too late. The physiological changes brought on by puberty are irreversable and while puberty itself can be delayed that has its own consequences.
If anyone makes the choice it should be a geneticist, failing that the parents.
In a utopian society a hermaphroditic child would be fully accepted but we are not a utopia. It is far easier, and much more humane, for the child to be assigned a standard sex as early as possible.
I would have said something like this if I wasn't on a phone, but more basic and less informed, the latest would be 13-14 and take testostorone or estrogen, anyway my last post as I'm tired and my spelling has gone to pot.
No, I'm saying that laws aren't designed with 'what's statistically best' in mind, or at least not all the time. On top of things, you have no way to determine a basis for your statistics. That would require, you know, empirical data and stuff.
Killing someone is extreme for such a small act, secondly for a pedant point it would cost money to kill people and keep order, possibly more money than the people who don't do anything take up
A bullet, a gun and the salary for the person doing the execution would always be gakload cheaper than just about any social net. Plus, I thought we were talking from the point of view of statistics only? 'Such a small act' is a value judgement, and doesn't come into statistics.
I have aspergers, I was sent away to a school designed for it because that helps the majority, it didn't work. Yet I still feel that going with the statistical view is the best option, stop living in rainbow land, someone will suffer with every choice, the good ones are ones that have more people benefit than suffer.
Still no basis for your 'this is the best choice', therefore your argument is empty.
Not empty but just to show I've been on that side of things.
It's earlier over in canada give a brit a break it's midnight and I'm on a phone my arguements and reasons aren't as indepth as I could were it midday.
The truth is, none of us have the capacity to make any sort of decision about a law being put in to place or anything like that regarding any of this. We do not have any real information, we have not had any data thrown our way. We do not know what it is like to be in this situation.
What should be done is, doctors should consult those hermaphrodites that are out there and see how it has impacted their lives, what choices were made and how those choices have been good/bad for them.
Ratbarf wrote: I would actually assume that hermaphrodites will become much less common in the near future as natal medicine advances. Seeing as hermaphrodites and homosexuals arise, in part, due to in the womb conditions it isn't far fetched that they would be able to correct for any abnormalities to avoid those kind of conditions, similar to how down syndrome can be screened for today. Although currently the only cure for that is abortion.
I think this may open a monstrous can of worms though.
How have people not flipped the feth out about this post...
Ratbarf wrote: I would actually assume that hermaphrodites will become much less common in the near future as natal medicine advances. Seeing as hermaphrodites and homosexuals arise, in part, due to in the womb conditions it isn't far fetched that they would be able to correct for any abnormalities to avoid those kind of conditions, similar to how down syndrome can be screened for today. Although currently the only cure for that is abortion.
I think this may open a monstrous can of worms though.
How have people not flipped the feth out about this post...
I've developped a floating blind spot to compensate for the Homosexuality Threads in Dakka's OT.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/24 00:19:33
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
Ratbarf wrote: I would actually assume that hermaphrodites will become much less common in the near future as natal medicine advances. Seeing as hermaphrodites and homosexuals arise, in part, due to in the womb conditions it isn't far fetched that they would be able to correct for any abnormalities to avoid those kind of conditions, similar to how down syndrome can be screened for today. Although currently the only cure for that is abortion.
I think this may open a monstrous can of worms though.
How have people not flipped the feth out about this post...
Once someone compares homosexuality to down syndrome, there's no point in trying to reason with them.
Ratbarf wrote: I would actually assume that hermaphrodites will become much less common in the near future as natal medicine advances. Seeing as hermaphrodites and homosexuals arise, in part, due to in the womb conditions it isn't far fetched that they would be able to correct for any abnormalities to avoid those kind of conditions, similar to how down syndrome can be screened for today. Although currently the only cure for that is abortion.
I think this may open a monstrous can of worms though.
How have people not flipped the out about this post...
I just kind of ignored it. I do that a lot now on Dakka.
40k: IG "The Poli-Aima 1st" ~3500pts (and various allies) KHADOR X-Wing (Empire Strong)
Ouze wrote: I can't wait to buy one of these, open the box, peek at the sprues, and then put it back in the box and store it unpainted for years.
Once someone compares homosexuality to down syndrome, there's no point in trying to reason with them.
Assuming that there is a genetic component to homosexuality, not that thas has been proven of course, then its not an inaccurate comparison. Its not exactly tactful but you can't have everything.
RegalPhantom wrote: If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog
Making a choice at birth carries a high risk of causing severe harm to the person, since if you make the wrong guess they will be stuck in the wrong body for their brain's gender (something that is incredibly harmful psychologically), at high risk of bullying/suicide/etc, forced to deal with an extremely difficult process of changing sex at some point in the future (or stuck living a miserable life if they can't afford it), etc.
Making a choice later in life carries a small risk of forcing the person to make a difficult decision about which gender they want to be. However this is a very small risk, since by the time you have to make a decision one way or the other most people have a pretty solid idea of who they are and the choice will be easy to make.
Therefore the obvious conclusion is to do nothing at birth, and only make a decision later in life once the person reaches an age where they have formed a gender identity and gained the ability to make an informed decision.
And no, the parents have no right to decide, just like the parents have no right to decide to cut their child's arms off at birth because they think it will be better for them.
Once someone compares homosexuality to down syndrome, there's no point in trying to reason with them.
Assuming that there is a genetic component to homosexuality, not that thas has been proven of course, then its not an inaccurate comparison. Its not exactly tactful but you can't have everything.
Of course it's an inaccurate comparison. Down syndrome is a crippling problem that removes any chance of having a normal life. Homosexuality is just a personality characteristic, and no different than a preference for brown hair vs. blonde, or liking football over baseball. The only "problem" caused by homosexuality is from bigots who are determined to make life hell for anyone who deviates from their idea of what is "right", homosexuality itself has no harmful effect.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/24 00:33:49
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Of course it's an inaccurate comparison. Down syndrome is a crippling problem that removes any chance of having a normal life. Homosexuality is just a personality characteristic, and no different than a preference for brown hair vs. blonde, or liking football over baseball. The only "problem" caused by homosexuality is from bigots who are determined to make life hell for anyone who deviates from their idea of what is "right", homosexuality itself has no harmful effect.
Well done for not actually reading my post.
RegalPhantom wrote: If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
RegalPhantom wrote: If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog
Palindrome wrote: In a utopian society a hermaphroditic child would be fully accepted but we are not a utopia. It is far easier, and much more humane, for the child to be assigned a standard sex as early as possible.
See I disagree with this mentality because it doesn't solve the problem it just encourages intolerance, that's like having a black baby's skin altered because they aren't tolerated in society. If you want to fight intolerance sometimes you have to risk offending others and hurting yourself as well.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/24 00:53:53
I did read it. I was just giving you an opportunity to gracefully change what you said into what you might have meant to say. But since you stand by what you wrote, my criticism stands.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
He suggested that homosexuality is possibly a condition linked to prenatal developpment. Which, if were true, would be an apt comparison as long as, like you've noted, we don't compare them as defect.
Which he should have noted himself. Possibly, that's what Ratbarf also meant, but didn't convey very well.
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
Kovnik Obama wrote: He suggested that homosexuality is possibly a condition linked to prenatal developpment. Which, if were true, would be an apt comparison as long as, like you've noted, we don't compare them as defect.
Except it's not even close to an apt comparison, since it doesn't say anything meaningful. "Things that have genetic components" is such a broad category that saying any two things are in that category is about as useful as saying that they're both words typed into a forum page. The only way to make the statement into a meaningful one is to include "harmful conditions" in the comparison, which makes it meaningful but completely false.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
I am for the traditional option for all children, that they are the ones who decide whether to live life as a boy or a girl. Most children know what they are by at 5, so the traditional age for decision making has always been 6 years.
Doctors and Parents should make the other decisions for health and safety, but this is one to butt out of.
I did when I stated that it wasn't a tactful comparison. I have little time for internet chest beating.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/24 00:59:43
RegalPhantom wrote: If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog
Of course it's an inaccurate comparison. Down syndrome is a crippling problem that removes any chance of having a normal life. Homosexuality is just a personality characteristic, and no different than a preference for brown hair vs. blonde, or liking football over baseball. The only "problem" caused by homosexuality is from bigots who are determined to make life hell for anyone who deviates from their idea of what is "right", homosexuality itself has no harmful effect.
Oh I wouldn't know about that, increased probability of depression/suicide, increased probability of drugs and alcohol abuse, not to mention sexual abnormality.
Edit; that's about the "homosexuality having no harmful effect" part.
Of course it's an inaccurate comparison. Down syndrome is a crippling problem that removes any chance of having a normal life. Homosexuality is just a personality characteristic, and no different than a preference for brown hair vs. blonde, or liking football over baseball. The only "problem" caused by homosexuality is from bigots who are determined to make life hell for anyone who deviates from their idea of what is "right", homosexuality itself has no harmful effect.
Yeah you missed my point, I wasn't comparing Homosexuality to Down Syndrome in its effect or negativeness, I was simply comparing that they were both conditions that can/could potentially be screened for and corrected in the womb. I mean there isn't anything wrong with homosexuals from a personal point of view, but to say there isn't anatomical abnormalities is simply wrong.
He suggested that homosexuality is possibly a condition linked to prenatal developpment. Which, if were true, would be an apt comparison as long as, like you've noted, we don't compare them as defect.
Which he should have noted himself. Possibly, that's what Ratbarf also meant, but didn't convey very well.
Yeah that's pretty much what I meant.
As a side note once that becomes possible I wonder what the reaction from the LGBTQ community would be, seeing as they would possibly be faced with extinction. (I can't really see too many non homosexual parents choosing to knowingly have a homosexual child.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/24 00:55:28
Ratbarf wrote: Oh I wouldn't know about that, increased probability of depression/suicide, increased probability of drugs and alcohol abuse, not to mention sexual abnormality.
Edit; that's about the "homosexuality having no harmful effect" part.
Except all of those problems are caused by abuse by bigots, not by homosexuality itself. It's ridiculous victim blaming.
Yeah you missed my point, I wasn't comparing Homosexuality to Down Syndrome in its effect or negativeness, I was simply comparing that they were both conditions that can/could potentially be screened for and corrected in the womb. I mean there isn't anything wrong with homosexuals from a personal point of view, but to say there isn't anatomical abnormalities is simply wrong.
Err, what? What do anatomical abnormalities and homosexuality have to do with each other? And how exactly do you "correct" homosexuality?
As a side note once that becomes possible I wonder what the reaction from the LGBTQ community would be, seeing as they would possibly be faced with extinction. (I can't really see too many non homosexual parents choosing to knowingly have a homosexual child.)
The reaction of course will be a ban on that kind of genetic engineering, since it enables every racist/sexist/etc belief in eugenics. Once we reach a point where we can detect and modify things with that kind of precision (which is much easier said than done) I think there will be a new law that you can only use it to remove obvious harmful disabilities, not to choose specific personality traits that you want your child to have.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
This is a dangerous choice for any of the parties to make. The doctor needs to advise the parents if there is any medical risk involved in sex assignment. Often in cases of hermaphroditism, the "plumbing" can be tangled or non-existant. The parents then risk the possibility of raising "a boy in a girl's body" or vice versa and dealing with its consequences later. When the child is old enough to understand its gender identity, it can scar the child physically and psychologically.
No one factor or individual choice is going to be an easy one. It is often a difficult life for children born with both or ambiguously formed genitals. Unless you're Jamie Lee Curtis....
Oh I wouldn't know about that, increased probability of depression/suicide, increased probability of drugs and alcohol abuse, not to mention sexual abnormality.
Edit; that's about the "homosexuality having no harmful effect" part.
Correlation =/= causation. Those issues are more likely related to the reaction of society to homosexuality. Change that, and you fix the issue.
Imagine the gakstorm I would get if I said that being black is a defect because it causes you to have a lower income, and suggested that we should 'fix' them by gene therapy...
Yeah you missed my point, I wasn't comparing Homosexuality to Down Syndrome in its effect or negativeness, I was simply comparing that they were both conditions that can/could potentially be screened for and corrected in the womb. I mean there isn't anything wrong with homosexuals from a personal point of view, but to say there isn't anatomical abnormalities is simply wrong.
As far as I know, there's no known anatomical abnormalities related to homosexuality.
As a side note once that becomes possible I wonder what the reaction from the LGBTQ community would be, seeing as they would possibly be faced with extinction. (I can't really see too many non homosexual parents choosing to knowingly have a homosexual child.)
I'm about 99% sure that it's a psychological issue, so I doubt it'll become an issue. Most gay guys that I know figured it out around 14-16, which is a little bit later then normal sexualisation.
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
As far as I know, there's no known anatomical abnormalities related to homosexuality.
I agree, but gay men usually have bigger penises then straight guys, although the study was self reported so they could be lying (there's no evidence to show if gay guys lie more than straight guys and I don't know if they counted bisexuals as gays in the study either).
Err, what? What do anatomical abnormalities and homosexuality have to do with each other? And how exactly do you "correct" homosexuality?
There is good, if limited, science on the differences in brain formation of homosexuals and transgenders, which generally stems from either an excess or lack of estrogen/testosterone during development in the womb. The result is that the section of the brain which is responsible for gender and sexual "preference"? is out of whack with the rest of the person physiology. Literally a female/male brain stuck in a male/female body. Watched a documentary on it in Psych class in high school, I see if I can find it for you.
Essentially if that could be screened and corrected for there could potentially come a day where there are few, if any, homosexuals.
Think I found it, not 100% sure because my internet is slow right now and I couldn't watch it.
As far as I know, there's no known anatomical abnormalities related to homosexuality.
There is a specific region/gland in the brain that is either too large or too small for the persons physical gender. This was discovered by dissecting the brains of transgendered and homosexuals. When they attempted to replicate this in rats the result was the same, that physically male rats with the female brain behaved like female rats, and female rats with male brains acted like male rats, ie tried to have sex with what they recognised as the opposite gender as well as other behavioral differences.
Correlation =/= causation. Those issues are more likely related to the reaction of society to homosexuality. Change that, and you fix the issue.
True, just sayin, what parent would knowingly and willingly put their child through that?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/24 01:25:37
As far as I know, there's no known anatomical abnormalities related to homosexuality.
I agree, but gay men usually have bigger penises then straight guys, although the study was self reported so they could be lying (there's no evidence to show if gay guys lie more than straight guys and I don't know if they counted bisexuals as gays in the study either).
Yeah, I was going to mention this one factoid, had heard about it when the study came out in the 90s. I've got my doubts.
Also, my friend noted that the Village here has shops where you can buy padded underwear, to suggest more then there is. I thought it was funny you didn't find those elsewhere... Maybe gays are even more superficial about this than straight men?
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
Ratbarf wrote: There is good, if limited, science on the differences in brain formation of homosexuals and transgenders, which generally stems from either an excess or lack of estrogen/testosterone during development in the womb. The result is that the section of the brain which is responsible for gender and sexual "preference"? is out of whack with the rest of the person physiology. Literally a female/male brain stuck in a male/female body. Watched a documentary on it in Psych class in high school, I see if I can find it for you.
What does that have to do with anatomy?
Essentially if that could be screened and corrected for there could potentially come a day where there are few, if any, homosexuals.
First of all, "correcting" homosexuality is just as morally appalling as "correcting" being black, so please stop using that term.
Second, the way to "correct" a mismatch between brain gender and body is to fix the body, not to modify someone's brain and in the process destroy who they are as a person. "Correcting" the brain is just as morally appalling as "correcting" homosexuality.
True, just sayin, what parent would knowingly and willingly put their child through that?
What parent would knowingly and willingly put their child through being born black? After all, racists are still a problem in society and you can't deny that white children have an easy life.
But feel free to keep blaming the victim.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: This is a dangerous choice for any of the parties to make. The doctor needs to advise the parents if there is any medical risk involved in sex assignment. Often in cases of hermaphroditism, the "plumbing" can be tangled or non-existant. The parents then risk the possibility of raising "a boy in a girl's body" or vice versa and dealing with its consequences later. When the child is old enough to understand its gender identity, it can scar the child physically and psychologically.
No one factor or individual choice is going to be an easy one. It is often a difficult life for children born with both or ambiguously formed genitals. Unless you're Jamie Lee Curtis....
Just so there's no confusion with my OP, the intersexual doesn't necessarily have to choose a sex either, he/she/it should be allowed to stay an intersexual if they want to.
KHADOR 
X-Wing (Empire Strong) 
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