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Blah page 67 duh

tankboy145 wrote:
I am pretty surprised IG, C:SM, SOB didnt get updated, like other said hopefully last minute changes. If not is there really nothing to correct with the 3 dex's?

Also someone mentioned a problem with drop pods? whats wrong with them?

There's a debate (which basically is in a never-ending circle) on whether or not being treated as an immobilised vehicle causes you to lose a hull point. However, (afaik) nobody actually plays that it does lose a hull point.

On a side note, I noticed that the FAQ covered Toughness used for Challenges, but they left out WS. Hmmm...

Different note: Not trying to start an argument, just curious about it (basically it's a HWYPI question). Based on the FAQ regarding Force Weapons and FNP, how would that interact with other weapons that have the potential of causing ID or similar ability, such as boneswords and the hexrifle?

 Happyjew wrote:

Different note: Not trying to start an argument, just curious about it (basically it's a HWYPI question). Based on the FAQ regarding Force Weapons and FNP, how would that interact with other weapons that have the potential of causing ID or similar ability, such as boneswords and the hexrifle?

With their stance it would appear

Bone Sword wound
Passes leadership, gets FnP roll.

Hexrifle
This one is RFP IIRC.

Wound, armor save, FnP, characteristic test if still needed.

At least that's the only way that makes sense to me. While possibly ignoring some rules.

Based on the precedent from the Force rule and the idea that rulings should be consistent, all "unsaved wound" triggers should come before FNP rolls.

It's dumb, it results in horribly stupid situations, but that's how GW has ruled.

Actualy the hexblade has been updated i think in the faw to cause ID. double check though.

As far as psykers, reserves still are not on the board at the time the powers are used, only the roll is made before the use of psychic powers.

 jegsar wrote:
As far as psykers, reserves still are not on the board at the time the powers are used, only the roll is made before the use of psychic powers.

No - you roll for all units then move them on. Moving on is part of arriving from reserves.
But page 67 restricts it anyway.

yes moving on is part of arriving reserves which is AFTER rolling for reserves. there is a longer thread on this subject alone.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/501040.page

Agreed conclusion was

Roll for reserves -> Use Psychic Powers -> Reserves arrive
or
Use Psychic Powers -> Roll for Reserves -> Reserves arrive
The rolling and the use of powers happens at the same time

And the advantages and disadvantages of each were described.

 jegsar wrote:
yes moving on is part of arriving reserves which is AFTER rolling for reserves. there is a longer thread on this subject alone.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/501040.page

Agreed conclusion was

Roll for reserves -> Use Psychic Powers -> Reserves arrive
or
Use Psychic Powers -> Roll for Reserves -> Reserves arrive
The rolling and the use of powers happens at the same time

And the advantages and disadvantages of each were described.

So you can roll for reserves separately from arriving? It's one process - find permission to interrupt it.
Roll a die - 3. That unit arrives from Reserves. When it arrives its placed on the board and moved.

The agreed conclusion in that thread is wrong.

Reserves pg.124

At the start of your Turn Two, you must roll aD6 for each
unit being held in reserve - these are known as Reserve
Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or rnore, that unit arrives this turn.

It does not say it immediately arrives. However the FAQ does say that the roll for reserves and the use of psychic powers happens at the same time.

When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units
arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described
below. Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and so on
until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then
proceed to move his other units as normal.

This paragraph says to deploy the models, "The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal".
Where does it say i can interrupt this and cast psychic powers before moving other models.


this wasn't used in the thread but another example of something happening in between an event 'x' and "when x happens"
If you look at the force weapon FAQ and read the page where it says when a model fails a saving throw it suffers a wound. FNP says "when a unsaved wound is suffered", and it seems like force weapons can interrupt that.

rigeld2 wrote:

 jegsar wrote:
As far as psykers, reserves still are not on the board at the time the powers are used, only the roll is made before the use of psychic powers.

No - you roll for all units then move them on. Moving on is part of arriving from reserves.
But page 67 restricts it anyway.

That's not actually true. If you look at the rules it is really clear that you roll for all units in reserve and THEN you pick one unit arriving from reserve, move it on, etc. There is no indication that rolling for the reserves and moving the units on is one big action that must be resolved together. The only restriction listed is that you must finish moving on all your units arriving from reserve before you start moving any of your other units.

So the rules work absolutely fine if you roll to see what reserve units are arriving that turn, then resolve your start of turn psychic powers and then have your units arriving from reserve move on, one at a time.

I agree with the Yak.

When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal.

This indicates quite clearly that you make all the rolls first, then move the arriving units on in whatever order you choose.

The new FAQ ruling makes it clear that those units moving onto the board are arriving at the start of the turn, and thus since you can choose the order of things which happen at the start of your turn, you could have a unit arrive and then have a psyker who was already on the table cast a Blessing on it.

 yakface wrote:


So the rules work absolutely fine if you roll to see what reserve units are arriving that turn, then resolve your start of turn psychic powers and then have your units arriving from reserve move on, one at a time.

For straight reserves it can work that way. But the FAQ also mentions rolling for Outflank, which clearly happens when the unit "arrives" from reserves. And "arriving" from reserves clearly includes moving onto the board.


And the question mentions reserves and Outflanking "etc."; which leaves us to wonder what other things they were including as being simultaneous.


edit: Mannahinn, Idon't think what you wrote actually agrees with what Yak wrote.

I think it does, although he described a different choice of order. Blessings and units moving on from Reserve both happen at the start of the turn, which is also the start of the movement phase. Page 67 does still prevent a unit which is arriving from Reserve this turn from itself casting a Blessing or Malediction, though.

Does it allow you to cast a blessing on a unit that has arrived from reserve from a unit that is already on the board?

 Mannahnin wrote:
I think it does, although he described a different choice of order. Blessings and units moving on from Reserve both happen at the start of the turn, which is also the start of the movement phase. Page 67 does still prevent a unit which is arriving from Reserve this turn from itself casting a Blessing or Malediction, though.

But the way I read his post, you make all the rolls for reserves, then do all the psy powers, then do all the arriving. Not allowing for any arriving before the psy powers.
But that does not address Outflank rolls.... (which your stance would allow for.)

Right. I'm saying that I think he's describing one way you CAN choose to order your start of turn actions. Not the one and only way.

Eldercaveman wrote:
Does it allow you to cast a blessing on a unit that has arrived from reserve from a unit that is already on the board?

Yes, to my read, that should work fine per the new FAQ.

 Mannahnin wrote:
I agree with the Yak.

When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal.

This indicates quite clearly that you make all the rolls first, then move the arriving units on in whatever order you choose.

The new FAQ ruling makes it clear that those units moving onto the board are arriving at the start of the turn, and thus since you can choose the order of things which happen at the start of your turn, you could have a unit arrive and then have a psyker who was already on the table cast a Blessing on it.

Heh, actually I was trying to argue that RAW when the units actually move on the table from Reserve this is no longer the 'start of the turn', as you make all the Reserve rolls as the start of turn action and THEN you pick one of the units arriving from reserve to move it on (so pretty much the opposite of what you said).

But I do agree with the concept that since the FAQ question includes the reference to rolling for Outflanking (which seems to happen when the unit actually arrives on the table), that the intent of the FAQ ruling is probably to allow a unit that moves onto the table to then benefit from a 'start of the turn' ability cast by another unit that was already on the table at the start of the turn.

However, I do think that this is a case where one reference in the FAQ seems to be slightly at odds with the way the rest of the question/answer was written and therefore ambiguity arises. To prevent this ambiguity the question in the FAQ really should have been written referencing 'units arriving from reserve' instead of just 'reserve rolls'.

I see what you're saying, but I think (as Janthkin did) that there's evidence even in just the rulebook text that units entering from reserve are doing so at the start of the turn/phase, so this could work. Enough so that I let an opponent at BFS in October do it. The FAQ ruling just lends more weight to that, IMO.

At the start of your Turn Two, you must roll a D6 for each unit being held in reserve - these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn.

Notice how it doesn't say then deploy the unit, just that it will arrive this turn. (never specifies timing)

To figure out the timing we look a little further down page 124 and see

When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal.

All we know is this happens before moving units but after the roll of when they come in.
Blessings/Maledictions

Blessings are manifested at the start of the Psyker's Movement phase.

at the same time as the roll, you can resolve this is either order, but the effects of the roll are not necessarily directly after the roll, just before 'normal' movement.

If this isn't good enough we can take a look at other things that happen at the same time as something else and see how they work but I am pretty confidant that you cannot cast blessings on a unit that arrived from reserves in the same turn, unless there is wording in the book somewhere that i missed.

side note: Reserves and outflank use the same wordingIf you are talking about which side of the table they come on from, that happens after the reserves roll also. I would say either time that you cast a psychic power, you would be doing this before rolling to see which side they come on.

You have 2 options
Roll Reserves -> Use Powers -> Reserves arrive -> normal move (as directed by the arrival of reserves paragraph)
Use Powers -> Roll Reserves -> Reserves arrive -> normal move (as directed by the arrival of reserves paragraph)

You can not do this
Roll Reserves -> Reserves arrive -> use powers -> normal move
The roll is at the start of the turn but the arrival is after, that is why the timing of the start of arrival is it is left out, for other start of turn effects.
All it states is that you do the arrival move before your normal move and after the reserve roll.

I disagree. As you said, Blessings are cast at the start of the movement phase. Reserves enter the table in the movement phase, before any other units move. This could also reasonably be described as being at the start of the movement phase.

But after the reserve roll. the FAQ specifically says reserve roll.
No where does it say that the arrival of the reserves is directly after the reserve roll but it does say that the normal movement is directly after the arrival move.

Now i'm not arguing RAI or what i think would be cool, personally i think psykers should be able to cast blessings/maledictions on the turn they arrive and you should also be able to assault out of reserves but that isn't RAW.

Start of movement phase is the start, not sometime kinda around the start. If it's said, before the psyker moves then i would agree.

 jegsar wrote:
But after the reserve roll. the FAQ specifically says reserve roll.
No where does it say that the arrival of the reserves is directly after the reserve roll but it does say that the normal movement is directly after the arrival move.

Now i'm not arguing RAI or what i think would be cool, personally i think psykers should be able to cast blessings/maledictions on the turn they arrive and you should also be able to assault out of reserves but that isn't RAW.

Start of movement phase is the start, not sometime kinda around the start. If it's said, before the psyker moves then i would agree.

Agree with this, it is called a reserve roll (3 plus unit is eligible to come on), outflanking roll would be done after the reserve roll and psyhic powers always, outflanking roll is done at the same tme as deep strike scatter. All the FAQ is allowing us to do is do the psyhic powers before the reserve roll, the issue being with certain psyhic powers that influence the reserve rolls (GK one, Scriers gaze etc).

To say that any unit arriving from reserves cannot use rules or abilites that have to be used at the beginning of the turn proves that after the reserves come on, this is NOT the beginning of the turn.

Tomb King wrote:Also, rending on vehicles is no longer ap2. That is a pretty significant nerf to rending units.

Seems fine to me i play orks so i dont have this lol.

One of the bigger things i saw in the FAQ that appealed to me was:

Q: If a Flyer arrives via Deep Strike, can embarked passengers
disembark from it on the same turn it arrives? (p80-)
A: No.

Reason being, a local necron player likes to abuse the fact that he can spam air transports that can deepstrike. He has a tendancy to drop half of his army right behind you and provide coverfire with the transports themselves. He cant do this anymore. Drop pods arent THAT big of an issue for the fact that the pod itself isnt that much of a threat, necron fliers can wreck havoc on their own not to mention what they brought.

They can still drop at 36 inches for crons... not as good but still.
Side note you made sure he declared which were which during deployment and rolled them separably for reserve rolls right?

Happy about the Force Weapon test before FnP.

Still waiting, but this does kinda open the door for 'Entropic Strike' to still work regardless of the FnP result.

 jegsar wrote:
But after the reserve roll. the FAQ specifically says reserve roll.
No where does it say that the arrival of the reserves is directly after the reserve roll but it does say that the normal movement is directly after the arrival move.

Now i'm not arguing RAI or what i think would be cool, personally i think psykers should be able to cast blessings/maledictions on the turn they arrive and you should also be able to assault out of reserves but that isn't RAW.

Start of movement phase is the start, not sometime kinda around the start. If it's said, before the psyker moves then i would agree.

Rolling a 3+ means a unit arrives.
When a unit arrives it is moved on.

Not "at some indeterminate point after rolling for reserves" not "after the beginning of the turn" but when. There's no delay built in, you need permission to insert a delay.

Still no answer on how explosions work outside of a vehicle.



http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/481504.page

So i am deep striking warp talons and termis. I make my reserve roll, both get 3+. Where is the sentence that says they come in right then? That is rai not raw, next i cast powers but lets say i have no psykers so we don't care. Then i select my warp talons to come in and don't scatter, they then get to try and blind the unit before i select my next unit, the terms. Notice how many actions and interruptions have taken place.

Pay power is after the ROLL for reserves as stated in the faq, read the other thread for more quotes and rules. Even Yak agrees.

 Akar wrote:
Still waiting, but this does kinda open the door for 'Entropic Strike' to still work regardless of the FnP result.

You can use that faq as a precedent. Both ES and Force happen "immediately" after an unsaved wound. So essentially their timing is the same.

copper.talos wrote:

 Akar wrote:
Still waiting, but this does kinda open the door for 'Entropic Strike' to still work regardless of the FnP result.

You can use that faq as a precedent. Both ES and Force happen "immediately" after an unsaved wound. So essentially their timing is the same.

I agree with your logic, however there is one major difference:

In the case of a Force Weapon vs. FNP, if the Force Weapon is activated first, the model is then nuked so the FNP result cannot possibly be enacted (as FNP cannot be taken against unsaved wounds that cause ID and at that point the unsaved wound now has ID).

In the case of Entropic Strike, even if you say that it is resolved before FNP, the effect of FNP then changes the unsaved wound into a saved result (thereby retroactively negating any thing else generated by it being an unsaved wound). Now, there is certainly all sorts of arguments to made either way on this matter (and they have been in the past), but I don't think that even using the precedent of resolving Entropic Strike before FNP necessarily gives a clear edict like it does with the Force Weapon.