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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And after that he'll formulate an elaborate reason why Dragio is an allegory for man's suffering and the futility of fighting Chaos when really it's just a badly written piece of gakky fan-fiction.

Please don't get the Ward apologists started...

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Tiberius Atellus wrote:
After joining Dakka I see alot of Ultramarine hate calling them Smurfs and the like. Where does all that come from? For the record i'm not that into the Ultramarines, my favorite chapters are the Grey Knights and Black Templars.

Because, at the end of the day, for all their hatred, for all their multi-paragraph posts spewing vitriol and rage at the boys in blue, these posters, know one fact... No matter their accomplishments, they can never be Ultramarines.

I literally lol'ed. Exalted.

I don't hate Ultramarines, I just don't particularly like them and would've liked a bit more fluff about other chapters in the Space Marine Codex (Imperial Fists, Salamanders, etc). I also feel that the way some of the background information is worded makes it seem like even venerable, storied chapters like the aforementioned Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, etc are inferior to Ultramarines and they know they are.

Again, it's not really hate, more like... a dismissive hand-wave accompanied by a "pfft".

I used to be more indifferent towards the Ultramarines (I have always liked Torias Telion since I first read about him though, for some reason), and apparently used to actively dislike them (I truly can not recall this, but Beavis swears this is true), but recent stories and characters have made me somewhat fond of them. The Space Marine game helped, with the character of Captain Titus, Know No Fear had some problems, but I really liked its portrayal of the Ultramarines as a legion.

On the whole, they're still not nearly my favorite, but there are reasons to like them.

As presented in the current codex though? Meh.

What do I swear is true?

That I used to hate the Ultramarines.

I dislike them because their colour scheme looks bland to me and because their fluff is generic and unappealing in my opinion.

I'm not presuming you to hate the Ultramarines. Infact as I earlier mentioned I think much of the reason for the hatred is more the fans of the Ultramarines than the Ultramarines themselves.

 ragingmunkyz wrote:

First off, it isn't tautological.

"More people would find Ultramarines interesting if they were written in a more interesting way" is the definition of tautology.

smurfs were written better, people would have been more likely to care about them.

Duh. lol

Again, those are simply examples, and on their own they don't equal interesting, but given the proper context, they can and do. A dark secret, for example, is a tropes which can be used to create conflict, and conflict is at the heart of all good stories. Character flaws can add depth and humanity, depth makes a story more engaging and humanity makes it more relatable. Tragic flaws and the path to redemption or downfall are classic writing elements, and great catalysts. I could go into more detail but I don't feel like teaching you creative writing 101. Suffice it to say, many people feel that Ultrasmurfs in the fluff are rather one dimensional and bland, so they don't particularly care for them.

And my point is that making them horse-fethers wouldn't make then any less bland or one-dimensional.

In general principal I agree that the problem with Ultramarines is that they're bland as gak- that's certainly why I yawn at them. However, a problem arises when Ultramarine apologists bring up other chapters, namely the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Templars and Dark Angels, and attempt to rationalize that the reason why people dislike the Ultramarines is because they're emo's who don't like the fact that Ultramarines lack a gimmick (which is what a "dark secret", "flaw" is). I would really consider that a strawman of the real reason many dislike the Ultramarines.

Secondly, thats both a straw man and reductio ad absurdum at the same time, so nice job on the two for one I guess? I never said or suggested that if they changed the Ultramarine fluff tomorrow, people would magically care. I specifically said if they had a better/different backstory from the beginning, people might have liked them more to begin with. Of course, it wouldn't make a difference in the case of your asinine suggestion, and its a bit late for a makeover now anyhow. All of that aside, I never presented an uninteresting background as the only reason for the hate, and I can see its pointless to continue responding to your myriad logical fallacies.

You don't know what tautological means. I'm more than dubious about your knowledge of fallacies.

 Melissia wrote:


Ultras just kind of ... exist.

+1 and /thread


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ragingmunkyz wrote:
Ultramarines see a bit more hate because of the spotlight GW likes to put on them, and because some of the fluff is so OTT, going out if its way to portray them as the shining, squeaky-clean, goodie two shoes marines. People don't like that they don't have a genetic defect, a dark secret, or seemingly any flaws, and they really didn't like the idea that every other chapter would venerate Guilliman and his teachings above their own primarchs and their teachings.

Although it may seem that the Smurfs get a disproportionate amount of hate, a good deal of it is all in good fun, and nearly every other chapter/faction with any popularity is mocked for some humorous OTT aspect of their fluff. GK are mary sues that hang out with space orangutans, SW are space puppies, BA are space vampires or twilight wannabes, DA are all repressed gays that afraid to come out of the closet, Eldar are space elves/elfdar, Tau are pathetically naive space communists, Necrons are terminators, Abaddon is Failbaddon and has no arms, half the chaos primarchs are whinny emogoths with daddy issues, etc. You get the picture. Most of it is tongue in cheek though, I know I've joked about all of the above and more, but its not like I really hate any of them. Its a game, don't take it so seriously.

Then again, there are those few people who take it WAY too seriously, and actually hate the smurfs or some other faction with a vitriolic passion, but most of them are trolls and don't get out much. I pity them, rather than get offended by them.

Woooo maestro - you nailed it, hats down to you Sir !!!
I don't like BA and I simply ignore them - to spit on them in every thread is beneath me, but sometimes when people are insulting "my puppies" I tend to lose control and lower myself to their level....
Weaknes in me which will be purged

I think I dislike them because there are so many poorly painted Ultramarine models out there! Because it's usually the first scheme most beginners start with, before they've learned how to paint well. At least here where I live. I don't mean to sound elitist, we've all sucked at painting once. They're all over eBay, and looking through all of my nerd friends' 40k boxes I find them! "Gah, they're everywhere!"
I think it's a tricky color scheme, but when it's done right it looks awesome.

Now my distaste has spread to all loyalist chapters. It would actually be refreshing to play against Ultramarines now, instead of endless waves of SW and GK that the kids seem to like nowadays.

Like a few people have said, it's more the newest codex.
The stories can be very over done, I tend to ignore the more outrageous ones, but the way people hate them for being the focus of C:SM is silly. In 2nd it was still C:UM, it still is, in all but name, and they deserve the focus. You don't get Flesh Tearers players complaining that it's called Codex: Blood Angels.
As for badly done Ultramarines armies, yes I hate them too, but everyone has to start somewhere, and a well done Ultramarines army with fluffy builds and models with character, will be one of the most unique armies you'll see.
Yes, you will see lots of Ultramarine armies, but most of these are blue Vanilla. A real Ultramarines army is rarely seen and quite a sight.

 captain collius wrote:
Because of the Fluff ward wrote.

That's actually just more recently.

People always hated the Ultramarines. Just before it was because they were "poster boys" or "boring".

Codex: Ultramarines, and it's offspring Codex: Space Marines, always lacked fancy, sparkly units like the other offshoot codex books for the Space Wolves or Blood Angels. Since it was perceived as the weakest of the SM codex books, players rebelled against the idea that the Ultramarines could be "the greatest of all Space Marine chapters" like they were written about as.

People are also very poor literary critics, lol. They think that having some cartoony trope like being ragey vampires, or brooding emo guys in bathrobes give other chapters "depth" and that the Ultramarines are bad and have no flaws simply because they're just the sort of middle of the road "Normal Marines", All Space Marines, by their very nature, are pretty heavily flawed. They're sociopathic, heavily indoctrinated murder machines devoid of all but the most basic shreds of empathy for their fellow man and live a life devoted entirely to warfare, absent of any true joy or experience, and serve almost unquestioningly despite the often extreme severity of their orders. Giving them a "dark secret", or some kind of gene seed flaw is just a plot hook to tie them into some other cultural reference (Vikings, or Crusaders, or Vampires, etc) as a marketing ploy. It's not actually about making them any more interesting or complex. I have a quiet laugh every time I read somebody's high school level critical analysis of the Ultramarines "character".


Ultimately, what it comes down to is some kind of bizarre plastic toy soldier envy. Back in the long long ago of 2nd Edition, there was a Big Four. Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Ultramarines. Games Workshop chose the Ultramarines as the flagship chapter for the Space Marine product line. Why did they do this? Because the Ultramarines needed very little extra explanation. They were big guys in big armor with big guns. If you knew what a real world Marine was, and you imagined them 40,000 years in the future, that's more or less what an Ultramarine looks like. No need to explain fangs, or excessive body hair, or hoodie bathrobes. The funny part is, the Ultramarines just replaced the Blood Angels in this role.

Ever since then, there's been this sort of subdued, but potent hatred because Games Workshop didn't pick their favorite color of Space Marines.


Then, you have a different breed of Ultramarines haters. That of the "We're confused and don't realize Codex: Space Marines 5th Edition is actually just Codex: Ultramarines version 4.0"

These guys have picked another color of Generic Marines, and feel like their guys don't get an even shake. They don't understand that Codex: Space Marines has always been Codex Ultramarines. They don't remember, or just ignore, that in every single Codex: Space Marines, the painting guide has been for Ultramarines, and the special characters predominantly Ultramarines. They don't realize that the name of the Codex book series was changed from Codex: Ultramarines because it was easier to market the book that way since it was less confusing to new players how to play as "Regular Space Marines". This group of players feel like Codex: Space Marines should represent a larger array of Space Marine chapters. Theirs, to be specific. They usually can't offer an explanation as to why the Ultramarines don't deserve their own codex and the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Templars do, but reasoning and rationality has never been a part of this equation.

The have the anti-underdog hate. People like underdog's, but ultramarines always have to win in the fluff.

Evileyes wrote:
The have the anti-underdog hate. People like underdog's, but ultramarines always have to win in the fluff.

You haven't read too much of the fluff have you?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Evileyes wrote:
The have the anti-underdog hate. People like underdog's, but ultramarines always have to win in the fluff.

You haven't read too much of the fluff have you?

Enough to say I have never read a fluff passage where the ultramarine's lost. Even in other codex's xD

Then the answer is "No", you haven't read much of the fluff.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Then the answer is "No", you haven't read much of the fluff.

I've read a lot. But it's always ultramarines killing an eldar avatar, ultramarines slaughtering orks, ultramarines fending off tyranids. I've yet to read a fluffpiece where they lose. That isn't an indication that I have not read fluff, it's an indication that they seem to win an awful lot more than most forces.

Which is understandable, seeing as how they are pretty much the face of 40k. But it doesn't change the fact it makes them the anti-underdog's.

People now hating on the Ultramarines? News to me :l

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And after that he'll formulate an elaborate reason why Dragio is an allegory for man's suffering and the futility of fighting Chaos ...

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Please don't get the Ward apologists started...

Don't tempt me!

They call it the Nerd Hierarchy in other places.

By ridiculing and looking down on a hobby aspect virtually identical to their own, those deep-down uncomfortable with their hobby, too immature to face up to it and admit it to their peers and friends, can feel "more mature" about themselves and their time in the hobby by the self-delusion of collecting the "superior" plastic toys and reading the "superior" plastic-toy-background-fluff. "

I have the feeling the kind of degenerates that like either the eldar or dark eldar,

what sort of person would like Chaos Marines?

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

They call it the Nerd Hierarchy in other places.

By ridiculing and looking down on a hobby aspect virtually identical to their own, those deep-down uncomfortable with their hobby, too immature to face up to it and admit it to their peers and friends, can feel "more mature" about themselves and their time in the hobby by the self-delusion of collecting the "superior" plastic toys and reading the "superior" plastic-toy-background-fluff. "

I have the feeling the kind of degenerates that like either the eldar or dark eldar,

what sort of person would like Chaos Marines?

Someone who likes the aesthetic of the line? Not everyone wants their character or army to be a bunch of lawful good shining armor space paladins.

Veteran sergeant is as always half-right. The Ultras has always been the posterboys of boring. That's the correct phrasing of his sentence.

From what I have seen...The internet HATES the ultras...but out in the real world no one seems to mind.

Pfft, Ultramarines are old news. The Dark Angels are the new poster boys: First codex release (this is a bad thing), Dark Vengeance Box Set, six new units in a space marine codex (unprecedented, although four not entirely useful) Novelisations, etc. When's the last time you saw an Ultramarine release by GW? Honour Guard five years ago? They clearly are reacting to the blandness of it all and have chucked in the blue for the black, bone and green .

Ultraborings: A case in chapter envy? No, I don't think so, it's just the fact that they are somewhat righteous paragons in a grimdark universe- and utterly bland as a result. Bland armies appeal to bland personalities, we surmise. Whether this is true I can't say, but it's possible to come round to liking them via fluff, as is anything well written I suppose.

I do think the whole Dark Angels premise is fundamentally silly, however. Their Dark Secret isn't really all that dark or terrible- in an age where everybody was turning traitor, staying loyal (and beating the traitors) shouldn't have to be such a big deal- it does seem like 10,000 years of pointless secrecy (although I guess that's part of the point.) They need to have a deeper, darker secret.

Honour Guard came out way longer than 5 years ago. 2008 was Chronus and Telion for UM figures.

And in all recent fluff, UM have been far from bland, they're recovering from losses, trying to defend the Eastern Fringe, waging general war, same as every other Chapter's story, just a different arm of the Milky Way.

I'm more than happy for the DA to be the new posterboys though, it was BA in 2nd, we had 3rd-5th, you can have 6th, maybe we'll lose some haters and pass them on to you guys. From other forums though, even Dakka to some extent, UM players seem to be able to take hate against their chapter far better than most other fanboys. So we'll see who's laughing soon.
Personally, I find the DA boring, they're just a little dull, they're too dark and brooding, it's a little comical at times.

I hate all space marines not just ultrasmurfs

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:

And in all recent fluff, UM have been far from bland...

... same as every other Chapter's story

Therein lies the problem...






All in all, the UM's are just the most boring, obvious chapter out there. There's just nothing really to make them interesting.

Much could be made of their rather hypocritical managing of an empire within an empire and vast control over successor chapters and Imperial Guard/PDF units of the Ultramar region in violation of the intent and letter of the Codex: Astartes, but that irony and hypocrisy is never addressed and such things merely used to show how Ultra the Ultramarines are instead.

I hate them mainly because of their more recent fluff, they went from being the saviors of the Imperium to a bunch of handwringing mary sues, and usually not hand wringing about anything important like if they should virus bomb an entire world because of one cult but because someone broke the codex (Uriel Ventris).

As an Iron Warrior Warsmith said: what great sin does it take for an Ultramarine to be exiled, did you turn left instead of right during a parade or did you forget to say you prayers in the morning.

To me the ultras are like that guy who has to top everyone elses story so a salamander guy will say "i slew the ork warboss and won the battle to which the smurf guy will reply " do you remember the time i tamed a carnifex stopped the 12th black crusade and bitch slapped Abaddon with my wabg all in 1 afternoon?"
anyway makes no difference to me i dislike all spacemarines
Chaos forever

I have to admit I really like the Ultramarines. They're sort of a guilty pleasure of mine. I'm big on fluff, that goes a long way into the armies I like and want to play.

Wardian fluff has kind of soured me on them, and I would really like to see someone, anyone, else (if there is some recently, please let me know) take over and at least try to move away from fluff worse than a poetry book written by a middle schooler. I think that's what really keeps me from actually building any. I'd like to do a vanilla army, and be able to compare/contrast between them and my SW.

Because of the fluff issues, I've looked to other chapters and found some I like, that have decent, if not the most in depth, fluff. At least some that doesn't consist of every one killing themselves simply because they can't be part of the chapter. I imagine He Who Shall Not Be Named embittered many towards the Ultramarines, but mostly I think people just get carried away.