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FFS, you pro-gun Americans (or any other country), just cant seem to get this around your head. WE are not terrified of home invasions (or other potentially lethal situations), and a majority of us DO NOT feel the need to be armed with guns.

I have not EVER seen or heard a gun on the streets. I have never felt unsafe to the point where i feel the need to arm myself with a gun. I do not know anyone who feels differently to me in Australia, or anywhere else for that matter.

Guns aren't a way of life for us, and I hope it stays this way.

again,

if a free society, you get to make your own choice about security, and I get to make mine.

freedom comes with responsibility, if you cant handle that thats your choice.

the comment about meth and grenades is so silly... you think that the meth heads in your neighborhood will stop doing it because its illegal?

you think because its illegal that it goes away magically?

you think that telling law abiding people to give up their guns, will somehow convince crooks to also give up their guns (or grenades as you put it)

can I now ban you from having gas/fireworks/bleach/fertilizer in your house because you could be making a bomb with it?
heck your house could burn down and catch the whole neighborhood.

same with your sports car, you dont NEED to go over 65mph, so cars that do go faster should be illegal, so that less people die in car crashes.

because as you say, it affects everyone, so no individual choice there.

same with fatty foods, smoking, and drinking. all those are bad for you, and therefore bad for society.

drinking leads to drunk drivers that run over my kids, so the only way to prevent drunk drivers, is to ban liquor, and ban cars.

you can ban everything, and its still going to come right up to your front door, because the people who follow the ban are not the problem.

not to mention its a serious detriment to anyone who isnt a self proclaimed "ninja" who can beat off multiple assailants with a hammer.

people with no conditions that normally bar responsible gun use, have a right to have a gun in case they need it.

those are the ONLY people who lose access to guns in a ban. The people that actually use them legitimately.

plenty of people have been in situations where guns have saved their lives, without firing a shot, thousands and thousands every year in the states.

but hey, if you think that you should trade freedoms and responsibility for dependance on the state, then go for it.

just stop trying to trade MY independence/freedom/responsibility

stop pretending that crooks see a gun ban and turn in their guns.

drugs were banned long ago, and it didnt stop crooks from having/using them.

murder is illegal, yet crooks still do it.

feel lucky you have never been in a situation where you needed to defend yourself, instead of crippling others ability to do so.

according to the Department of Justice’s 2007 Uniformed Crime Report, states with right-to-carry laws have a 30 percent lower homicide rate, as well as a 46 percent lower robbery rate. Four shootings by permit holders continues to be a tiny minority in gun crimes statistics.

but im sure youll just say those stats from the DoJ dont matter,
just like your aussie policemen, sports shooters, and the govenment officials in the video i linked dont matter.

We are afraid all the time of people wanting to take all our cool stuff.

easysauce wrote:again,

if a free society, you get to make your own choice about security, and I get to make mine.

freedom comes with responsibility, if you cant handle that thats your choice.

the comment about meth and grenades is so silly... you think that the meth heads in your neighborhood will stop doing it because its illegal?

you think because its illegal that it goes away magically?

you think that telling law abiding people to give up their guns, will somehow convince crooks to also give up their guns (or grenades as you put it)

can I now ban you from having gas/fireworks/bleach/fertilizer in your house because you could be making a bomb with it?
heck your house could burn down and catch the whole neighborhood.

same with your sports car, you dont NEED to go over 65mph, so cars that do go faster should be illegal, so that less people die in car crashes.

because as you say, it affects everyone, so no individual choice there.

same with fatty foods, smoking, and drinking. all those are bad for you, and therefore bad for society.

drinking leads to drunk drivers that run over my kids, so the only way to prevent drunk drivers, is to ban liquor, and ban cars.

you can ban everything, and its still going to come right up to your front door, because the people who follow the ban are not the problem.

not to mention its a serious detriment to anyone who isnt a self proclaimed "ninja" who can beat off multiple assailants with a hammer.

people with no conditions that normally bar responsible gun use, have a right to have a gun in case they need it.

those are the ONLY people who lose access to guns in a ban. The people that actually use them legitimately.

plenty of people have been in situations where guns have saved their lives, without firing a shot, thousands and thousands every year in the states.

but hey, if you think that you should trade freedoms and responsibility for dependance on the state, then go for it.

just stop trying to trade MY independence/freedom/responsibility

stop pretending that crooks see a gun ban and turn in their guns.

drugs were banned long ago, and it didnt stop crooks from having/using them.

murder is illegal, yet crooks still do it.

feel lucky you have never been in a situation where you needed to defend yourself, instead of crippling others ability to do so.

according to the Department of Justice’s 2007 Uniformed Crime Report, states with right-to-carry laws have a 30 percent lower homicide rate, as well as a 46 percent lower robbery rate. Four shootings by permit holders continues to be a tiny minority in gun crimes statistics.

but im sure youll just say those stats from the DoJ dont matter,
just like your aussie policemen, sports shooters, and the govenment officials in the video i linked dont matter.

Your poem sucks.





Beyond that, however: laws against theft don't seem to prevent criminals from stealing, yet we still have laws against theft.

 Ahtman wrote:


We are afraid all the time of people wanting to take all our cool stuff.

Hysterical

Exalted!

 motyak wrote:
Sure, maybe down in campbeltown (a really crappy area near sydney) they may have a bit more of that, or maybe in melbourne where there is a bit of organised crime (I think? I'm not sure though, it definitely isn't as bad as other countries though) home invasions might happen a bit more often, but that is just pure speculation on my part.

Excuse me. Maybe ask someone from Campbelltown before making that kind of bs up?

Like any other major population center, it's got its good suburbs and bad suburbs. I live in one of the dodgy suburbs around Campbelltown, and it's actually got a very low crime rate. My brother lived in one of the dodgyest suburbs, and never had problems (and walked the streets at night with his kids just fine). I used to live about 3 streets away from where the Rosemeadow riots happened, and incidentally, walked through that suburb at 3am looking for a McDonalds. To be fair, I did feel like I was going to get knifed when I did that.

So yes, there's good suburbs and bad subrubs, just like anywhere else.

easysauce wrote:
but hey, if you think that you should trade freedoms and responsibility for dependance on the state, then go for it.

just stop trying to trade MY independence/freedom/responsibility

stop pretending that crooks see a gun ban and turn in their guns.

drugs were banned long ago, and it didnt stop crooks from having/using them.

murder is illegal, yet crooks still do it.

feel lucky you have never been in a situation where you needed to defend yourself, instead of crippling others ability to do so.

For frick's sake! None of the evil big-government loving gun-fearing personal-liberty-restricting villains that you're arguing against are saying they should be banned! The "worst" thing that I have seen was arguing on restrictions of sale. Not taking them from people. Making it harder to get them if you shouldn't have them (in cases of mental illness for example). I repeat, not taking them away.

Also, again, please please please please please stop pressing enter at the end of every tiny sentence you write. Please. Pretty Please?
It makes it a pain in the arse to read, and just irritates those reading it.

 Goliath wrote:


Also, again, please please please please please stop pressing enter at the end of every tiny sentence you write. Please. Pretty Please?
It makes it a pain in the arse to read, and just irritates those reading it.

Yes, please.
And my addition:

Also, again, please please please please please start pressing shift at the beginning of every tiny sentence you write. Please. Pretty Please?
It makes it a pain in the arse to read, and just irritates those reading it.

easysauce wrote:
all the aussies I know think they are worse off without the ability to defend themselves, broad daylight home invasions have become something to fear, since the crooks know no aussies can defend their home, and the crooks still ahve guns.

All the Aussies I know either didn't own guns in the first place, or still have them due to being farmers with a legitimate reason to use them.


Broad daylight home invasions are still comparatively rare. Nobody I knows particularly worries about them, and most Australians are every bit as capable of 'defending their homes' as they ever were.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
So, what would you do if one of the Australian criminals who does own a gun comes calling?

In that rare event, he would take what he can find, and leave. And then I would have a talk to the police, and lodge an insurance claim.

Which, to my mind, is a much better outcome than a member of my family winding up injured or dead becuase I thought it would be a good idea to start a firefight in my living room.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

easysauce wrote:
OBS non owners still dont care about guns they never owned being taken. Really, they dont even know the real facts about guns, and have very little experience with them, beyond being scared when the talking heads on tv tell them how scary and evil guns and gun owners are.

I don't own a gun. I have never owned a gun.

I'm also ex-army, and so know plenty about guns, but thanks for the generalisation. I'm not scared of guns. I just see no particular reason for most people to own one.

if you dont feel you should at least have a plan B just in case some idiot drunk/druggie has a knife or a gun and targets you, then that is your choice,

I have a plan B. It's to not get into a fight with an armed idiot unless I can be certain of winning without someone I care about being hurt. Escalation is rarely a good solution.

Its when you make that choice for OTHER people that its a problem, some people are old, and cannot swing a hammer and beat back multiple, let alone, a single attacker with ninja skills like you.

But they're presumably spry enough to backflip into their hallway and grab their gun before the crazed, pistol-toting home-invader can bring his weapon to bear?

I find it amusing that some posters are claiming to live in dodgey areas and yet don't have to worry about anything. Doesn't sound very dodgey to me.

 azazel the cat wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I wouldn't dispute you have a lower crime rate, but I'd say its because you have little organized crime to be worried about. You don't have the drug cartels thoroughly entrenched in your society, nor do you border a country that's basically a warzone for said cartels. Plus you don't have massive amounts of immigration.

Your lower crime rate isn't related to having less guns around.

Are you seriously implying that immigrants are responsible for crime?

Two of them were last week...

Yes. Immigrants are responsible for crime, like derp any other population. However, the immigrants are brought here by organized criminal networks - aka cartels.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cheesecat wrote:

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
wat.

That is easily the most bizarre thing I've read all month. Broad daylight home invasions? Crooks running around with guns terrorising the defenseless populace?

It's like some alternate dimension dystopian Australia.

You mean Mad Max isn't a realistic depiction of Australia?

No that has to be right. Its the only thing that explains the killer crocs, killer drop bears, and spiders the size of VWs. WHATS GOING ON OVER THERE?!?!?!??!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ahtman wrote:


We are afraid all the time of people wanting to take all our cool stuff.

See thats just fake. Thats an FN. No wake that survives a good shower. Now if he had an AK, no problem.

AK-47, for all your shower tactical operator needs.

yellowfever wrote:
I find it amusing that some posters are claiming to live in dodgey areas and yet don't have to worry about anything. Doesn't sound very dodgey to me.

Just because a suburb might be a dodgy area dosen't mean theres things to be unduly worried about. Plenty of drug dealers/users in my area but they don't hassle you though (unless you owe them money) and plenty of them are nice enough blokes it's just they have a less then savoury past time. Within the last decade there was an outlaw motorcycle clubhouse a few streets from my house. Again, not the nicest group of characters but they didn't go around raping and murdering willy nilly. You just didn't want to mess with them or loiter around their club house.

 Frazzled wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I wouldn't dispute you have a lower crime rate, but I'd say its because you have little organized crime to be worried about. You don't have the drug cartels thoroughly entrenched in your society, nor do you border a country that's basically a warzone for said cartels. Plus you don't have massive amounts of immigration.

Your lower crime rate isn't related to having less guns around.

Are you seriously implying that immigrants are responsible for crime?

Two of them were last week...

Yes. Immigrants are responsible for crime, like derp any other population. However, the immigrants are brought here by organized criminal networks - aka cartels.

In 2011, DHS deported "1,119 aliens convicted of homicide; 5,848 aliens convicted of sexual offenses; 44,653 aliens convicted of drug related crimes; and 35,927 aliens convicted of driving under the influence."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/15/immigration-crime-statistics_n_1089164.html

Now, while it's up to debate on whether or not illegal immigrants have a higher crime rate then other sections of society, that is more then 87,000 people who shouldn't have been in our country, but were, and were committing crimes. And that is just people who were caught and deported.

I think it is disingenuous to pretend the question was as to whether or not immigrants commit crimes, which removes the context of the question. It is quite obvious that the question was in response to a statement that could be read as immigrants being almost solely responsible for crime, and the statement questioned the premise.

Funny how these conversations drift into other topics like illegal immigrants and we all get to hear the right wing muppets spout their illogical and immoral drivel.

In NZ the police don't even carry guns, and we are neither at the mercy of our government nor hordes of armed criminals.

 Ahtman wrote:
I think it is disingenuous to pretend the question was as to whether or not immigrants commit crimes, which removes the context of the question. It is quite obvious that the question was in response to a statement that could be read as immigrants being almost solely responsible for crime, and the statement questioned the premise.

He didn't infer it was solely. He layed out a number of factors, and that was one of them.

In 2011 there was an estimated 1.2 million violent crimes. A segment of our population that makes up .3% of the population accounted for a significant portion of that.

I'd say that falls in line with exactly what he is saying. An issue that Canada doesn't deal with like we do, causes a lot of crime, so of course their numbers are going to be differant.

 Ahtman wrote:
I think it is disingenuous to pretend the question was as to whether or not immigrants commit crimes, which removes the context of the question. It is quite obvious that the question was in response to a statement that could be read as immigrants being almost solely responsible for crime, and the statement questioned the premise.

Well thats not accurate. As the immortal bard once said: immigrant families don't cause crime. Immigrants named Luca Bratzi cause crime! Especially for da fishes!

 Snrub wrote:

yellowfever wrote:
I find it amusing that some posters are claiming to live in dodgey areas and yet don't have to worry about anything. Doesn't sound very dodgey to me.

Just because a suburb might be a dodgy area dosen't mean theres things to be unduly worried about. Plenty of drug dealers/users in my area but they don't hassle you though (unless you owe them money) and plenty of them are nice enough blokes it's just they have a less then savoury past time. Within the last decade there was an outlaw motorcycle clubhouse a few streets from my house. Again, not the nicest group of characters but they didn't go around raping and murdering willy nilly. You just didn't want to mess with them or loiter around their club house.

I think he was making the point that our definitions of "dodgy" might be a little different. It sounds like we're operating from a "high violent crime, potentially gang-controlled," definition, whereas you guys seem to have more of a, "Wait, there's not a communal oregano garden?" one.

In their defense you can't have many drive bys when everyone's looking up, watching for the telltale signs of a pending drop bear attack.

I think those posts weren't trying to say that we have bad problems, but instead the exact opposite. I think the majority of Aussies so far have posted to refute Easy's (and others) assertion that we live in fear of massive crime and that our lack of guns means we are doomed

 motyak wrote:
I think those posts weren't trying to say that we have bad problems, but instead the exact opposite. I think the majority of Aussies so far have posted to refute Easy's (and others) assertion that we live in fear of massive crime and that our lack of guns means we are doomed

Don't you guys just live in constant fear of the wildlife?

I walk through forests with mountain lions, wolves, and bears, with little apprehension, but Australia scarys the ever living gak outta me.

Knowing some of the stuff that lives there, I can understand why things like violent biker gangs, and mass murderer's don't do much to unsettle you guys.

I get what you mean djones. I think it is the poison. A deadly animal is a deadly animal, but if all it has yo do is bite you once and you are done, regardless if your mate gets it iff you a second later (assuming a remote part of aus here/the jungle)

 Seaward wrote:
I think he was making the point that our definitions of "dodgy" might be a little different. It sounds like we're operating from a "high violent crime, potentially gang-controlled," definition, whereas you guys seem to have more of a, "Wait, there's not a communal oregano garden?" one.

You know thats probably a fair assessment of the situation.

Frazzled wrote:In their defense you can't have many drive bys when everyone's looking up, watching for the telltale signs of a pending drop bear attack.

We don't have drive bys, we have drop ins. Swift and brutal attacks. Truely terrifying to behold.

djones520 wrote:Don't you guys just live in constant fear of the wildlife?

I walk through forests with mountain lions, wolves, and bears, with little apprehension, but Australia scarys the ever living gak outta me.

Knowing some of the stuff that lives there, I can understand why things like violent biker gangs, and mass murderer's don't do much to unsettle you guys.

When you live near a creek and things such as this and this are a not uncommon occurance in your backyard wheres the point in being worried about a whackdoo with a weapon.

yellowfever wrote:
I find it amusing that some posters are claiming to live in dodgey areas and yet don't have to worry about anything. Doesn't sound very dodgey to me.

All Australian men are experts with a cricket bat.

We don't have drive bys, we have drop ins. Swift and brutal attacks. Truely terrifying to behold.

Sounds like when the inlaws come over.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

When you live near a creek and things such as this and this are a not uncommon occurance in your backyard wheres the point in being worried about a whackdoo with a weapon.

Ratshot, or alternatively a real pissed off wiener dog will do ya. Rodney is the Red Baron of snake killing, like a mongoose but with a far worse disposition. Me I typically scream like a little girl and then go on a rampage with a shovel (while still screaming like a little girl).

MarsNZ wrote:
Funny how these conversations drift into other topics like illegal immigrants and we all get to hear the right wing muppets spout their illogical and immoral drivel.

In NZ the police don't even carry guns, and we are neither at the mercy of our government nor hordes of armed criminals.

Yes, but when 3/4ths of your population are also rugby players, that kinda lends to a non-need for firearms, well it should, but I guess that depends on your proportions of Backs to Forwards

Frazzled wrote:Well thats not accurate. As the immortal bard once said: immigrant families don't cause crime. Immigrants named Luca Bratzi cause crime! Especially for da fishes!

I can only assume then that either you haven't actually seen The Godfather, or else took the "Luca Brazi sleeps with the fishes" line way, waaaay out of context.

Frazz didn't see the Godfather, he IS the Godfather.

 azazel the cat wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Well thats not accurate. As the immortal bard once said: immigrant families don't cause crime. Immigrants named Luca Bratzi cause crime! Especially for da fishes!

I can only assume then that either you haven't actually seen The Godfather, or else took the "Luca Brazi sleeps with the fishes" line way, waaaay out of context.

Hey if you're a little fish, swimming around, and all of a sudden had a 250lb guy landing on top of you, you'd consider that a crime too!

 Frazzled wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

When you live near a creek and things such as this and this are a not uncommon occurance in your backyard wheres the point in being worried about a whackdoo with a weapon.

Ratshot, or alternatively a real pissed off wiener dog will do ya. Rodney is the Red Baron of snake killing, like a mongoose but with a far worse disposition. Me I typically scream like a little girl and then go on a rampage with a shovel (while still screaming like a little girl).

The mental image of that just made me lose it. At work.