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nosferatu1001 wrote:
Alyssis - again, read the actual rulebook, and the example given by Happy. It totally destroys your argument which is why you have yet to address it.

So answer this, or concede your position:

I have 2 outflanking units turn up on turn 4. I have a blessing / Eldar power'ed psyker next to them, on the board edge they turn up on.

As per the FAQ, i choose to roll AND, as REQUIRED in the outflank rules, move on unit A.

As per the FAQ, I then choose to use a blessing on that unit. This is still the start of the turn, as stated in the FAQ

As per the FAQ, i choose to roll AND, according to the rules for Outflank, immediately move the unit on. THis is still, according to the FAQ, the start of the turn

If you do not agree that this sequence is possible, then provide an argumment otherwise.

I wont agree with you, as you have failed to present a rulesbased argument that actually agrees with the rules. You are told that "arriving from reserve" is done at the start of the turn, and moving on from reserves, part of arriving, is therefore STILL at the start of the turn as it is part of this action.

Your group can houserule however they want. It remains purely a houserule, so it is good for your education to know what th erules actually say, in case you play in tournaments etc that use the real rules.

Wheres the AND come from?, The faq lets you do the rolls only no mention of movement, this you have only addressed by saying the etc at the end (after two examples both of which are rolls...)lets you do this thats your opinion not a rules based arguement.

Alyssisl wrote:The faq doenst tell you that you can move units onto the table and then cast a blessing. It tells you that blessins occur at the same time as reserve rolls, and outflanking rolls.

The rules for outflanking rolls do, however

If youd actually read the example, and responded, your undermined position would be clear as a bell to you

You roll the side for Outflank WHEN you move that model on
You then move the model on
You then make ANOTHER roll for outflank
You then move the unit on

So, when you are told that ALL outflanking rolls are simultaneous with the start of turn, and therefore blessings, then moving on from outflank must ALSO be start of turn

THis is solid, unassailable RAW.

Continue with your opinion, if you want. You have yet to answer the query, so I accept you have conceded your position.

Alyssisl wrote:
You want me to answer something that ive done several times now.. well, go and read the book, and the rules, until you actually see what it says, and dont stop after the first lines..

Have done. You clearly havent, otherwise you would actually answer the query. is it possible, or isnt it?>

Alyssisl wrote:You simply ignore all the rules in the book, an bases your entire ruling on three letters: ETC.

That is a strict lie. Nothing in my last post relied on that. "etc" is simply proof that your claim that ONLY the rolls are simultaneous is WRONG. You refuse to accept this however

Alyssis wrote:And obviously im the one not following the rules..

You are not, because you are beraking thge rules requiring you to move the outflanking unit on BEFORE rolling outflank for the next unit. You refuse to see that you are doing so, as to do so would destroy your argf8ument

Alyssis wrote:We are not houseruling anything. I refuse to play with houserules.

Yes, you are, as has been proven over and over. Keep ignoring the proof to the contrary if you iike, as facts will not alter due to your opinion.

Alyssisl wrote: If i do play in a tournament, i doubt that they to will base everything on three letters comming after reserve rolls, and outflanking rolls. The rules are clear.. your assumption isnt..

Good job my argument doesnt rely on that, but on the written rules laying out the sequence of Reserves, including outflank, that totally and fatally undermines your entire argument

Your refusal to answer is noted.

Mark - again, go through the steps of moving outflanking units on. You roll, move a unit on, roll, move a unit on. By definition the rolls are start of turn, therefore yb definition SO IS THE MOVEMENT on from outflank.
Address the point, or concede. This is not an opinion, but fact

Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement
phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves
rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously - – as such, the player whose
turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per
page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

The first problem is if you break down the entire process of arriving from reserves, reserve rolls and outflanking rolls do not occur simultaneously, thus making their answer invalid from the get go. It's akin to saying that 1+1=5. I don't care how loudly or how "official" you try to make it, it's not true. The only way you can group their timing as happening at the same time is if you group the entire process of arriving from reserves as happening as a single "Start of the Movement Phase" action

The second problem is you cannot say, precisely, what "etc." actually means. That is the worst possible term they could have inserted into a FAQ that is supposed to be clarifying a rule. It could encompass every single action in the game. Obviously, that is not a logical interpretation. We are left to guess what "etc" means. The only logical interpretations are:

1) "etc" means "all other Start of Movement Phase actions". This is logical if you conclude that the entire process of arriving from reserves, including Reserve Rolls, Outflanking Rolls, and moving onto the board, is conducted as a single "Start of Movement Phase/Start of Turn" action. If you separate moving onto the board as "arriving" and is not a "Start of Movement Phase" action, then you must also separate Outflanking Rolls as not being "Start of Movement Phase", which completely goes against the proper usage of "etc." in this form.

2) "etc." means "the rest of the process of arriving from reserves". This again places Reserve Rolls, Outflanking Rolls, and moving onto the board as a single "Start of Turn/Start of Movement Phase" action.

Except their answer cannot be invalid meaning that as far as the rules are concerned they are simultaneous.

I found the 5th paragraph of the 'Arriving From Reserve' section (BRB p124) to be interesting.

It seems to differentiate between rolling for reserves (seeing if they arrive this turn) and moving them onto the table. It implies you must have already rolled for all of your reserves before you choose one arriving unit to move onto the table. It implies this because you must 'pick any of the arriving units' and deploy it. You can't pick from 'any' of them until you have rolled for all of them.

It also states that these onto the table moves must be done sequentially. It says that after you move the 1st choice unit onto the table you then pick another arriving unit and so on till all are on the table.This is another point in favor of the arrival rolls all happening before any arriving unit is placed on the board.

It also states that these arriving onto the table moves must be done before moving other units as normal. I think it is this last part that needs our attention.

'Before normal moves' may or may not = 'at the start of the Movement phase.' From a RAI / HIWPI point of view, I think it is something that happens at the start of the movement phase. IMO, anything that I have to do before I am free to move my units normally would fall into this category.

From a RAW strict interpretation, I can see a reasonable case for the non-permissive point of view.

I have to say, it does not seem to support the 'roll for a unit in reserve and if it arrives, immediately place it on the board' point of view.

I read the Deepstrike and Outflank rules. They seem to follow the same procedure, or at least not specifically counter it. They only differ in how the arriving unit moves onto the table, and the 6th paragraph folds that in nicely.

The ongoing reserves rule (BRB p125) says that "Units in Ongoing Reserves always re-enter play at the start of their controlling player's following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves." If we read the 'otherwise' to refer to the 'always' (as opposed to on a 3+) then we have confirmation that Reserves enter play at the start of the turn. If we read the 'otherwise' to refer to the 'always' and the 'at the start ' then we are no closer. I think the first reading is more RAI, but I would be interested in other's thoughts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The faq entry combined with the Outflank rules convinced me. I'm firmly persuaded in favor of the permissive position.

Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement
phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves
rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose
turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per
page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

underlining mine

The 5th paragraph in the 2nd column of BRB p124 tells us to pick an arriving unit and deploy it, using the rules in the 6th paragraph.
The 6th paragraph tells us how to move the arriving unit onto the table, noting at the end that models arriving via DS or OF deploy using their own special rules.
The Outflank rule (BRB p40) says that an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, you roll for table edge. I believe this to be the 'Outflanking roll'
Since the faq entry says Outflanking happens simultaneously with the start of the movement phase, I believe the Outflanking roll happens at the start of the movement phase.
The Outflanking roll is only made in the course of deploying the picked arriving unit onto the table, per the 5th and 6th paragraphs
Since the arriving units can be picked in any order the active player chooses, and the outflanking roll is happening at the start of the movement phase, I believe all of the arriving onto the table deployments must occur at the start of the movement phase.

IIRC, the key opposition to the permissive position was an uncertainty whether or not an Arriving unit's movement/deployment onto the table was also at the start of the Movement phase.
This, plus the above information, seems to indicate that it is.

Since someone doesn't want to just look at the BRB FAQ/Errata, despite it being linked in Happyjew's signature:

Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)

A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

Ta-da! Mind you, what has been said previously has been slightly off in one thing (I think!): You have to roll your Reserves all at once. But you can still roll your Reserves and then do your powers.

Why can you do this? Well since someone is forgetting how Reserves works:

When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal.

So the "movement" of the units coming in from Reserve actually happens prior to the Movement Phase proper actually gets going. By that, I mean before "step 1" where you pick a unit and then move it. You can't move a single unit before you finish all the "at start of turn" stuff, of which even the movement of Reserved units onto the board is a part of.

And there you have it.

Indeed. Totally, 100% conclusive RAW.

Now if only the detractors from the position could answer the points raised.

Explain why it says reserve rolls then?, the etc of that in no way implies that the rest of the reserve process is followed in the instance of the FAQ, etc does not include the reserve movement, etc is so on. So you have two mentions of rolls then etc aka and so on so this implies only that other start of turn rolls can be made.

If you take the stance that the reserve process is a unbroken chain I argue that the FAQ lets you change that by doing reserve rolls (defined on page 125 arriving from reserves first para).

You must roll a d6 for each unit being held in reserve - these are known as Reserve rolls

This is what the FAQ references, not the rest of the reserve process.

Movement on from reserves is movement, regardless of whether it is normal movement or not it is no longer the start of the movement phase.

Marky - AGAIN look at Happys example

The rules for Outflank roles REQUIRE You to immediately move the unit on once you roll for the side they turn up on

You are then told that outflank rolls PLURAL are *still* start of turn actions, yet we know that one outflank roll MUST be immediately followed by the move, before you can make the next roll

You are ignoring the rules for moving Outflanking models onto the board, despite being shown otherwise.

Your contention that this is no longer the start of the movement phase is false, as has been proven.

If you disagree, show how all outflank rolls occur BEFORE you move the unit on. You cannot do so, b ut as per the tenets of this forum please provide some rules support to your argument.

MarkyMark wrote:
Explain why it says reserve rolls then?, the etc of that in no way implies that the rest of the reserve process is followed in the instance of the FAQ, etc does not include the reserve movement, etc is so on. So you have two mentions of rolls then etc aka and so on so this implies only that other start of turn rolls can be made.

If you take the stance that the reserve process is a unbroken chain I argue that the FAQ lets you change that by doing reserve rolls (defined on page 125 arriving from reserves first para).

You must roll a d6 for each unit being held in reserve - these are known as Reserve rolls

This is what the FAQ references, not the rest of the reserve process.

Movement on from reserves is movement, regardless of whether it is normal movement or not it is no longer the start of the movement phase.

I cover this in my post. I don't even reference the 'etc.' I only reference the listed examples in the faq entry.
I presented 3 logical, rules-based arguments for why the Arriving unit's deployment onto the board occurred 'at the start of the Movement phase.'
I would focus on the 3rd if I were you. It's much stronger than the first two.
I'm not sure what this 'unbroken chain' you are are referring to. I certainly didn't need to refer to any such thing to make a persuasive case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grats, respect, and such to happyjew for stating my argument much more concisely and a full page earlier in this thread

I did read the whole thread before posting. Perhaps I should start trying to read with comprehension

MarkyMark wrote:
Movement on from reserves is movement, regardless of whether it is normal movement or not it is no longer the start of the movement phase.

You seem to be missing the point, and misunderstanding the RAW:

1. At the start of your Turn Two,you must roll a D6 for each unit being held in reserve - these are known as Reserve Rolls.
2. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn.
3. When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below.
4. Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and soon until all arriving units are on the table.
5. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal.

Item 1 tells us what to do on Turn Two. Likewise, there is a bit of the rules for what happens on Turn Three but it still works the same. We are given a term to refer to these specific dice rolls strictly because there are other rules that can modify only these kinds of rolls.

Item 2 tells us what happens when a Reserve Roll hits a 3+/2+ (depending if its Turn Two/Three). Notice the last half of that sentence? That tells us that as soon as we roll the 3+ the unit "arrives". We're told to make all our rolls at one time.

Item 3 tells us what to do when a unit "arrives". Very clearly, the rules tell us to deploy the Reserve unit as soon as we got a successful Reserve Roll. Under your interpretation you'd never be able to get more than one Reserve unit per turn, which is clearly not the way the game works. Especially since Item 4 tells us to pick another Reserve unit and deploy it if its Reserve Roll was successful.

So, as several people have been trying to tell you, you are wrong. You misunderstand what the rules say. Not a big deal, the rules are convoluted and poorly written at times. Hence YMDC!

Edit: And now I'm confused, as I'm not sure which side of the fence MarkyMark is on o.O I *think* I got your opinion right, but if I didn't let me know!

MarkyMark wrote:
Explain why it says reserve rolls then?, the etc of that in no way implies that the rest of the reserve process is followed in the instance of the FAQ, etc does not include the reserve movement, etc is so on. So you have two mentions of rolls then etc aka and so on so this implies only that other start of turn rolls can be made.

If you take the stance that the reserve process is a unbroken chain I argue that the FAQ lets you change that by doing reserve rolls (defined on page 125 arriving from reserves first para).

You must roll a d6 for each unit being held in reserve - these are known as Reserve rolls

This is what the FAQ references, not the rest of the reserve process.

Movement on from reserves is movement, regardless of whether it is normal movement or not it is no longer the start of the movement phase.

Example:
Unit 1 and 2 are Normal Reserves, Units 3 and 4 are Outflanking Units

Turn and Movement Phase Starts
Make Reserve Rolls for all four Units. Yay, they are all successful
Move Unit 1 onto the board
Outflank Roll for Unit 3
Move Unit 3 onto the board
Outflank Roll for Unit 4
Move Unit 4 onto the board
Move Unit 2 onto the board

1)Reserve Rolls are done at the Start of the Movement Phase
2)FAQ says Reserve Rolls and Outflanking Rolls are simultaneous
3)Outflanking rolls HAVE to be done at the same time that you move units on the board.

The only logical conclusion is that all three things (Reserve Rolls, Outflanking Rolls, and moving units on from reserves) is a single process that all happens together and happens at the Start of the Movement Phase. Any other conclusion breaks one of the 3 rules above.

Exactly. You can argue all you want that they're not simultaneous, but the FAQ makes them simultaneous.

I think people have a hard time resolving RL definitions of words (like simultaneous) with their functional equivalent in 40k (in this case, simultaneous just means part of the same subphase).

I agree with the "yes you can" crowd (cause that's what the rules say), but I can see the source of the dogmatic position of the detractors.

Agreed.

It's a sloppy section of the 6th ed rules. I think part of the problem is that you have a relatively simple idea (do this 1st) being made complex by its repeated application (do this, and this, and this, and this 1st)

You have several things that may or must be done at the start of the movement phase. Things listed in BRB and various codex.
You have the choice of doing them in the order you choose per the faq entry and BRB
Some of them must be done before others. This is a logical imperative in some cases - you must roll for Reserve Arrival before you chose an Arriving unit
They are simultaneous.

Suffice it to say that these things must be done before normal movement. Yes, they do include some movement - abnormal movement.

Tautology for the day - Special rules are special because they are special