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If you get really lucky with a daemon prince with a black mace and wings and draw invisibility, warp speed and iron arm you could drop swarmy hard. The luck factor on that is rather extreme and expensiv3 however. Horus would still smash that dp however. That 3++ is rough on a 6 wound model.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
All these swarmlord arguments depend on him getting Iron Arm. Without it, he is biting the dust hard on turn 1. Can we really take such an important factor for granted?

He has an 80% chance of getting it, if not he has the rest of the biomancy table, none of which is bad. Or if you want to be cheeky he could be invisible and thus autowin most fights and be immune to dakka.

But Horus as standard? Short of Daemon Angron, nobody who's not a gargantuan creature is beating him in assault without buffing shenanigans.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Has anyone run Horus against the Daemon Lords like Zarakynel?

 Kain wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Has anyone run Horus against the Daemon Lords like Zarakynel?

An'ggrath ought to win. He's got on average 10 attacks at WS10 S10 I5 on the charge (and he flies 24" a turn, so he'll get the charge) and has 8 wounds backed up by a 4++ so that he can take a punch and keep going. His T8 is a bit of a letdown, but that's his only flaw in this lineup. He pretty much murderizes anything he comes into contact with.

Enfeeble is great but yet again its dependent on getting it off and not having it denied. Than you still have the problem that Skarbrand is swinging way before you and if you dont have Eternal Warrior your insta-dead. Even if your toughness a million he still wounds you on a +2. Everyone of your arguments depends on what you get, and what you get is all random, no gurantees. With the Primarchs and Skarbrand have gear that instantly makes them a problem. The real question to be asked is can anyone reliably deal with a Primarch?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Has anyone run Horus against the Daemon Lords like Zarakynel?

An'ggrath ought to win. He's got on average 10 attacks at WS10 S10 I5 on the charge (and he flies 24" a turn, so he'll get the charge) and has 8 wounds backed up by a 4++ so that he can take a punch and keep going. His T8 is a bit of a letdown, but that's his only flaw in this lineup. He pretty much murderizes anything he comes into contact with.

Doesn't An'ggrath rather amusingly lose to Zarakynel in assault due to her ability to outright ignore invulnerable saves?

UncleGlock wrote:
Enfeeble is great but yet again its dependent on getting it off and not having it denied. Than you still have the problem that Skarbrand is swinging way before you and if you dont have Eternal Warrior your insta-dead. Even if your toughness a million he still wounds you on a +2. Everyone of your arguments depends on what you get, and what you get is all random, no gurantees. With the Primarchs and Skarbrand have gear that instantly makes them a problem. The real question to be asked is can anyone reliably deal with a Primarch?

The Swarmlord swings at I6.

rigeld2 wrote:If he doesn't get IA (unlikely) he's very likely to get Enfeeble. Enfeeble + Smash == dead Skarbrand iirc (no Eternal Warrior, right?)

Or just regular wound = dead Skarbrand, Bonesabres always inflict instant death.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
All these swarmlord arguments depend on him getting Iron Arm. Without it, he is biting the dust hard on turn 1. Can we really take such an important factor for granted?

Pretty much, yes. Even if he doesn't get Iron Arm he has the potential to stack other powers (Warp Speed, Endurance, Enfeeble all help significantly) to increase his chances.


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 PrinceRaven wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:If he doesn't get IA (unlikely) he's very likely to get Enfeeble. Enfeeble + Smash == dead Skarbrand iirc (no Eternal Warrior, right?)

Or just regular wound = dead Skarbrand, Bonesabres always inflict instant death.

I always forget that...

Anyway this thread is about Abaddon's pappy, not Skarbrand and Swarmy.

The Swarmlord swings at I6.

UncleGlock wrote:

The Swarmlord swings at I6.

Skarbrand is I10.

I still think DOOMBREAD can take Horus.

 Kain wrote:

UncleGlock wrote:

The Swarmlord swings at I6.

Skarbrand is I10.

Ahem, *smacks Glock with the WORLDBREAKER to get him back on topic*.

UncleGlock wrote:

 Kain wrote:

UncleGlock wrote:

The Swarmlord swings at I6.

Skarbrand is I10.

Ahem, *smacks Glock with the WORLDBREAKER to get him back on topic*.

LOL Glock goes to I1 and gains Unwieldy.
I wish i had my book with me. I cant remember what Mortarion and Fulgrim can do but they both do some awesome crap too. I know that Angron, depending on the game, can get up to and xtra 10 attacks i believe stacked onto his profile so its quite possible under a perfect world he could slay Horus np since the longer battle goes on the bigger and badder he gets.

Blood Angels my first army. I love them in the books. Cant wait for Sanguinius, flying monstrous primarch. Other thing to consider for the Primarchs is that they can join units so they can keep jumping into units for ablative wounds. Mephiston cant do that, neither can Skarbrand, Swarmlord has body guards i believe so he has something but once there gone he stuck too.
Another thing to remember is that if you take a Primarch in a regular game than your opponent has access to taking a Super Heavy such as a Baneblade or a Titan so technically Horus isnt the most powerful model at that point because your not playing Apocalypse.

 ductvader wrote:

Dundas wrote:

I suspect Swarmy will get hit with a bit of a nerf bat; after all when he was originally designed he was never intended to have psychic powers that boost his toughness, strength, attacks, and give him EW and IWND.

I think SL using only Codex powers would probably lose pretty quick to Horus, or any of the Primarchs - as you'd expect given the difference in points cost.

I very much doubt Tyranids and Swarmy in particular will lose access to Biomancy or Telepathy.

Iron Arm, Biomancy being given to bugs, and most bug psykers being T6 is not something that is just "unintended"

I think Swarmlord will stay close to what he is. He is supposed to be the master of all tactics and combat...his weakness is being slow and easy to shoot.

I don't think he'll lose Biomancy, what I think he'll lose is 4 rolls on the table which all but guarantee him Iron Arm and/or Warp Speed and Endurance. At most I'd see him get Mastery Level 3, so three rolls on the table, and a distinct possibility he'll only be level 2, or that he'll have at least one forced roll on a new Tyranid psyker table. It's not Swarmy possibly getting Iron Arm that's an issue just now, it's the fact he's almost guaranteed it.

Dundas wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

Dundas wrote:

I suspect Swarmy will get hit with a bit of a nerf bat; after all when he was originally designed he was never intended to have psychic powers that boost his toughness, strength, attacks, and give him EW and IWND.

I think SL using only Codex powers would probably lose pretty quick to Horus, or any of the Primarchs - as you'd expect given the difference in points cost.

I very much doubt Tyranids and Swarmy in particular will lose access to Biomancy or Telepathy.

Iron Arm, Biomancy being given to bugs, and most bug psykers being T6 is not something that is just "unintended"

I think Swarmlord will stay close to what he is. He is supposed to be the master of all tactics and combat...his weakness is being slow and easy to shoot.

I don't think he'll lose Biomancy, what I think he'll lose is 4 rolls on the table which all but guarantee him Iron Arm and/or Warp Speed and Endurance. At most I'd see him get Mastery Level 3, so three rolls on the table, and a distinct possibility he'll only be level 2, or that he'll have at least one forced roll on a new Tyranid psyker table. It's not Swarmy possibly getting Iron Arm that's an issue just now, it's the fact he's almost guaranteed it.

Ahem

*Smacks Dundas with the WORLDBREAKER to get him back on topic*.

krazykishere wrote:
If you get really lucky with a daemon prince with a black mace and wings and draw invisibility, warp speed and iron arm you could drop swarmy hard. The luck factor on that is rather extreme and expensiv3 however. Horus would still smash that dp however. That 3++ is rough on a 6 wound model.

The best possible combo is a daemon prince but stuff the black mace. Daemon prince of Tzeentch, prescienced, forewarned and grimoired, Iron arm and warp speed with 4+ FNP and greater etherblade and staff of change. Thats up to 10 attacks on the charge re rolling to hit at str 10 ap2, any return blows have to get through a 2plus re rolling 1's. Good luck to swarmy and Horus

MarkyMark wrote:

krazykishere wrote:
If you get really lucky with a daemon prince with a black mace and wings and draw invisibility, warp speed and iron arm you could drop swarmy hard. The luck factor on that is rather extreme and expensiv3 however. Horus would still smash that dp however. That 3++ is rough on a 6 wound model.

The best possible combo is a daemon prince but stuff the black mace. Daemon prince of Tzeentch, prescienced, forewarned and grimoired, Iron arm and warp speed with 4+ FNP and greater etherblade and staff of change. Thats up to 10 attacks on the charge re rolling to hit at str 10 ap2, any return blows have to get through a 2plus re rolling 1's. Good luck to swarmy and Horus

Of which maybe two or so will wound. And then Horus hits back and then smashes in the Daemon Prince's face.

out of 10 attacks on the charge why only 2 will wound?, and with a 2 plus invul re rolling 1's I doubt he will lose many wounds.

So 10 attacks on the charge, 3's to hit re rolling, then 2's to wounds, thats like 7 wounds on Horus, with a 3 plus save he will lose a couple of wounds, Horus hits back with 5 attacks hitting on 4's and wounding on 2's if using str 10 then prince has to do say 3 2plus invul's re rolling failed saves, lucky to get one wound on the prince.

MarkyMark wrote:

krazykishere wrote:
If you get really lucky with a daemon prince with a black mace and wings and draw invisibility, warp speed and iron arm you could drop swarmy hard. The luck factor on that is rather extreme and expensiv3 however. Horus would still smash that dp however. That 3++ is rough on a 6 wound model.

The best possible combo is a daemon prince but stuff the black mace. Daemon prince of Tzeentch, prescienced, forewarned and grimoired, Iron arm and warp speed with 4+ FNP and greater etherblade and staff of change. Thats up to 10 attacks on the charge re rolling to hit at str 10 ap2, any return blows have to get through a 2plus re rolling 1's. Good luck to swarmy and Horus

Where do you get the 2+ reroll from? I get that Daemon of Tzeentch lets you reroll 1's, but where's the 2++ from? At best you'd have a 3++ from the Grimoire (unless I've completely misunderstood how it works, which is possible).

MarkyMark wrote:
out of 10 attacks on the charge why only 2 will wound?, and with a 2 plus invul re rolling 1's I doubt he will lose many wounds.

So 10 attacks on the charge, 3's to hit re rolling, then 2's to wounds, thats like 7 wounds on Horus, with a 3 plus save he will lose a couple of wounds, Horus hits back with 5 attacks hitting on 4's and wounding on 2's if using str 10 then prince has to do say 3 2plus invul's re rolling failed saves, lucky to get one wound on the prince.

Is your Daemon Prince's WS higher than Horus'? If not then only half of your attacks will get to hit.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:

krazykishere wrote:
If you get really lucky with a daemon prince with a black mace and wings and draw invisibility, warp speed and iron arm you could drop swarmy hard. The luck factor on that is rather extreme and expensiv3 however. Horus would still smash that dp however. That 3++ is rough on a 6 wound model.

The best possible combo is a daemon prince but stuff the black mace. Daemon prince of Tzeentch, prescienced, forewarned and grimoired, Iron arm and warp speed with 4+ FNP and greater etherblade and staff of change. Thats up to 10 attacks on the charge re rolling to hit at str 10 ap2, any return blows have to get through a 2plus re rolling 1's. Good luck to swarmy and Horus

Where do you get the 2+ reroll from? I get that Daemon of Tzeentch lets you reroll 1's, but where's the 2++ from? At best you'd have a 3++ from the Grimoire (unless I've completely misunderstood how it works, which is possible).

Forewarn grants a 4++, which is then increased by 2 by the Grimoire. Also, MarkyMark, I dare you to make a list designed to create that monstrosity.

Cast Forewarning, gives you a 4plus invul save then cast the grimoire equals 2 plus invul re rolling failed saves of 1.


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 Kain wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
out of 10 attacks on the charge why only 2 will wound?, and with a 2 plus invul re rolling 1's I doubt he will lose many wounds.

So 10 attacks on the charge, 3's to hit re rolling, then 2's to wounds, thats like 7 wounds on Horus, with a 3 plus save he will lose a couple of wounds, Horus hits back with 5 attacks hitting on 4's and wounding on 2's if using str 10 then prince has to do say 3 2plus invul's re rolling failed saves, lucky to get one wound on the prince.

Is your Daemon Prince's WS higher than Horus'? If not then only half of your attacks will get to hit.

Horus WS8, Prince WS9 plus presience lets you re roll misses.

MarkyMark wrote:
Cast Forewarning, gives you a 4plus invul save then cast the grimoire equals 2 plus invul re rolling failed saves of 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
out of 10 attacks on the charge why only 2 will wound?, and with a 2 plus invul re rolling 1's I doubt he will lose many wounds.

So 10 attacks on the charge, 3's to hit re rolling, then 2's to wounds, thats like 7 wounds on Horus, with a 3 plus save he will lose a couple of wounds, Horus hits back with 5 attacks hitting on 4's and wounding on 2's if using str 10 then prince has to do say 3 2plus invul's re rolling failed saves, lucky to get one wound on the prince.

Is your Daemon Prince's WS higher than Horus'? If not then only half of your attacks will get to hit.

Horus WS8, Prince WS9 plus presience lets you re roll misses.

And if Horus wants to he can instead use his claw and reduce your WS and strength by one every time he hits at initiative.

Your prince won't be very tough when he hits at WS1 at lower than grot strength.

 Kain wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Cast Forewarning, gives you a 4plus invul save then cast the grimoire equals 2 plus invul re rolling failed saves of 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
out of 10 attacks on the charge why only 2 will wound?, and with a 2 plus invul re rolling 1's I doubt he will lose many wounds.

So 10 attacks on the charge, 3's to hit re rolling, then 2's to wounds, thats like 7 wounds on Horus, with a 3 plus save he will lose a couple of wounds, Horus hits back with 5 attacks hitting on 4's and wounding on 2's if using str 10 then prince has to do say 3 2plus invul's re rolling failed saves, lucky to get one wound on the prince.

Is your Daemon Prince's WS higher than Horus'? If not then only half of your attacks will get to hit.

Horus WS8, Prince WS9 plus presience lets you re roll misses.

And if Horus wants to he can instead use his claw and reduce your WS and strength by one every time he hits at initiative.

Your prince won't be very tough when he hits at WS1 at lower than grot strength.

Bad move, str 6 toughness 8 is 6's to wound, plus with iron arm its ok for toughness for str he is base 6 plus 2 for staff plus whatever for iron arm. Plus I have to be wounded first no?.


Its a slim chance to get all those powers but its unstoppable if you do

MarkyMark wrote:

 Kain wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Cast Forewarning, gives you a 4plus invul save then cast the grimoire equals 2 plus invul re rolling failed saves of 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
out of 10 attacks on the charge why only 2 will wound?, and with a 2 plus invul re rolling 1's I doubt he will lose many wounds.

So 10 attacks on the charge, 3's to hit re rolling, then 2's to wounds, thats like 7 wounds on Horus, with a 3 plus save he will lose a couple of wounds, Horus hits back with 5 attacks hitting on 4's and wounding on 2's if using str 10 then prince has to do say 3 2plus invul's re rolling failed saves, lucky to get one wound on the prince.

Is your Daemon Prince's WS higher than Horus'? If not then only half of your attacks will get to hit.

Horus WS8, Prince WS9 plus presience lets you re roll misses.

And if Horus wants to he can instead use his claw and reduce your WS and strength by one every time he hits at initiative.

Your prince won't be very tough when he hits at WS1 at lower than grot strength.

Bad move, str 6 toughness 8 is 6's to wound, plus with iron arm its ok for toughness for str he is base 6 plus 2 for staff plus whatever for iron arm. Plus I have to be wounded first no?.


Its a slim chance to get all those powers but its unstoppable if you do

Zarakynel could kill your model in an eyeblink due to a superior initiative and her ignoring of invulnerable saves. No you don't get to reroll them, you don't get to roll them period. And she's not that much more expensive than Horus.

Who is this Zarakynel?, ah the FW Slaanesh GD, nice cant say I know her rules!

This thread intrigued me, so I went ahead and worked out a dice test between Swarmlord and Horus.

I rolled on biomancy with all 4 powers and managed to get iron arm and warp speed. I then proceeded to work out the combat 1v1, not giving the bonus attack for charging.

ROUND 1

Swarmlord passed both psychic tests, getting +1 strength/toughness and 3 initiative/attacks. Because Horus has initiative 6, simply casting off warp speed means Swarmy goes first. Swarmlord gave himself Preferred Enemy via Swarm Leader ability, and ended up causing 2 wounds to Horus. Horus in return dished out 5 attacks with his special lightning claws at strength 7 with reroll to wound due to shred, causing 2 wounds. Because of this, Swarmlord is now down 2 WS and 2 S. Horus then proceeded to fail his It Will Not Die roll.

ROUND 2

Swarmlord passed both psychic tests again, bringing him up to strength 5 and toughness 7, with i7 and 5 attacks, and again, preferred enemy. He strikes first, dealing 2 more wounds to Horus. Horus in return dealt another 2 wounds with his Talons, dragging down another 2ws and strength. Horus again fails his it will not die roll.

ROUND 3

Swarmlord passes his psychic tests again, getting +3 s/t and +2 attacks/initiative, however, the lightning claws are seriously taking their toll. Before modifiers, he's currently fighting at ws5 and strength 2 vs Horus's ws8 and t6. To overcome this, he smashes with his iron flesh to bring his attack up to strength 7. With preferred enemy, and my surprise, he manages to make Horus reroll his invulnerable save to cause him to lose his final two wounds, killing him. Swarmlord wins...down 4 ws, 4 strength, and only one wound remaining, but still alive.


Conclusion: Is Horus insanely powerful? Yes indeed. Is he invincible? Of course not. Personally I was surprised at how close these two can duke it out in close combat, though if the Swarmlord didn't have his powers, I'm sure the result would have been very different. I did a second dice test after this one, which turned into a long battle of attrition. Swarmy had iron arm and endurance this time, but whiffed in a few rounds, and after 7 rounds of Horus beating on him with the Talons and World Breaker, the Swarmlord went down, but not before causing Horus 4 wounds.

If you ask me, the reason why Swarmlord is able to hold his own against a 600 point model is for a couple reasons. Due to blade parry, iron arm, and warp speed, he is able to counteract Horus's debuffs and his beastly 3++. Without iron arm, Swarmlord would be getting considerably weaker due to Horus's ability to cripple as he fights, not to mention at t9, world breaker only wounds on a 3. However also keep in mind these two are almost never found alone - Horus is an independent character and Swarmy has his tyrant guard.


My personal favorite part of this whole thing? Despite costing as much as a land raider, the Swarmlord is still technically a "point efficient" way of dealing with Horus. Then again so is tarpitting him with gaunts for the whole game, but that's another scenario entirely

Funny, I don't remember rules for Horus in 40k or Apocalypse...