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 Alfndrate wrote:
Wow... I went to Catholic schooling for 10 years and I had never see half of that ...

Me neither, I never actually had a Catechism while in my highschool years. I had to wait until I took an Ethics class at Laval University before being introduced to Catholic ethics.

My father, on the other hand, had to learn the Little Catechism by heart for his religious education.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rented Tritium wrote:
You're the second person who has tried to argue with me on this on the basis that "sacrifice" means "suicide". Take it up with the original post if you want to redefine "sacrifice".

I'm arguing that your claim that Catholic and christian morality allows for the martyrdom of its members is either unfounded or inadequate. You can either admit you do not know what your talking about, or indicate me where in the doctrine does it says that catholics and christians have a duty to sacrifice themselves in certain circumstances, and how those consequences makes it a act of martyrdom.

The quoted text was simply to show that the Catholics do not believe that any individual is entitled to a say over when his life ends. You do not own your life, it is not yours to forfeit. You cannot sacrifice something you do not own.

 Rented Tritium wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Rented Tritium wrote:

Nonsense. Christianity absolutely features martyrdom. It's even in the catholic catechism.

You'd have to point that out to me. We call the Christ's sacrifice the Sacrifice Pascal because it is explicitely supposed to be the only sacrifice necessary to the complete redemption of humanity's sins (#613-614 in the Catechism). On the other hand, the Catechism's position on suicide, regardless of the intent, is pretty clear ;

You're the second person who has tried to argue with me on this on the basis that "sacrifice" means "suicide". Take it up with the original post if you want to redefine "sacrifice".

Except that being a martyr does not mean sacrifice.

 Peregrine wrote:

Suicide is wrong because of the "permanent solution to a temporary problem" cliche. It causes a lot of pain to the people who care about you, and in hindsight you'll probably be glad someone stopped you from doing it.

And if no one cares about you, and implicitly does not stop you, is it still wrong?

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

Except that being a martyr does not mean sacrifice.

Right. Anyways, the christian doctrine on martyrdom is very clear :

Matthew 10 : 22 & 23 wrote:And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved. 23But when they persecute you in this city, flee you into another: for truly I say to you, You shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

The Church only asks that you do not abjure your faith. Otherwise, you have a duty to flee from persecution. If you do abjure your faith because of threats against you or your life, you are made a lapsi, that is, you are temporarily excluded from the Church until you accomplish a penitence.

On the other hand, martyrs are obviously glorified, and they get preferential treatment in Heaven. For exemple, a unbaptised martyr is considered baptised by his own blood.

 Rented Tritium wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Rented Tritium wrote:

Nonsense. Christianity absolutely features martyrdom. It's even in the catholic catechism.

You'd have to point that out to me. We call the Christ's sacrifice the Sacrifice Pascal because it is explicitely supposed to be the only sacrifice necessary to the complete redemption of humanity's sins (#613-614 in the Catechism). On the other hand, the Catechism's position on suicide, regardless of the intent, is pretty clear ;

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
On the other hand, martyrs are obviously glorified, and they get preferential treatment in Heaven.

My head is spinning from how fast you're moving the goalposts.

 Rented Tritium wrote:

My head is spinning from how fast you're moving the goalposts.

This whole line of debate stems from this point :

 Rented Tritium wrote:

Islam is just about the only religion that calls killing yourself "becoming a martyr"

Nonsense. Christianity absolutely features martyrdom. It's even in the catholic catechism.

I had this whole internal debate as a confirmed and educated catholic. This is not a straw man, that was actually me as a catholic thinking that at one point.

Which is what I've tried to answer to. No Catholic would ever call killing youself (which is what you answered to) becoming a martyr. Catholics have a duty to evade persecution to preserve their lives. If they cannot evade said persecution, they have a (lesser) duty to remain a true witness to God's word. The level of punishment is telling. Killing yourself gets you eternally damned, while abjuring your faith gets you a timeout.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Rented Tritium wrote:

My head is spinning from how fast you're moving the goalposts.

This whole line of debate stems from this point :

 Rented Tritium wrote:

Islam is just about the only religion that calls killing yourself "becoming a martyr"

Nonsense. Christianity absolutely features martyrdom. It's even in the catholic catechism.

I had this whole internal debate as a confirmed and educated catholic. This is not a straw man, that was actually me as a catholic thinking that at one point.

Which is what I've tried to answer to. No Catholic would ever call killing youself (which is what you answered to) becoming a martyr. Catholics have a duty to evade persecution to preserve their lives. If they cannot evade said persecution, they have a (lesser) duty to remain a true witness to God's word. The level of punishment is telling. Killing yourself gets you eternally damned, while abjuring your faith gets you a timeout.

Well there's your problem. You assumed I was speaking directly to the original post and not the general track of the posts before me in the thread.

A martyr in Christianity is someone who has been killed for their faith.

Sp a Christian martyr and an Islamic martyr are totally different. There is a reason we call them Suicide-bombers.

Someone who sacrifices himself so others may live is revered in Christianity. He is not a martyr or someone who commits suicide.

Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends - John 15:13

 Rented Tritium wrote:

Well there's your problem. You assumed I was speaking directly to the original post and not the general track of the posts before me in the thread.

My problem? Really???

Here's the formalized structure of this thread so far :

a : p
b : q
c : r
.
.
.
Ensis Ferrae : s
Rented Trentium : - s
.
.

And I'm not supposed to think your answer was directly aimed at the previous post? If someone as a problem here, believe me, its not on my side of the screen.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Rented Tritium wrote:

Well there's your problem. You assumed I was speaking directly to the original post and not the general track of the posts before me in the thread.

My problem? Really???

Here's the formalized structure of this thread so far :

a : p
b : q
c : r
.
.
.
Ensis Ferrae : s
Rented Trentium : - s
.
.

And I'm not supposed to think your answer was directly aimed at the previous post? If someone as a problem here, believe me, its not on my side of the screen.

Yeah, we're done here if you want to act like this,

 dogma wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Suicide is wrong because of the "permanent solution to a temporary problem" cliche. It causes a lot of pain to the people who care about you, and in hindsight you'll probably be glad someone stopped you from doing it.

And if no one cares about you, and implicitly does not stop you, is it still wrong?

Well in the unrealistic hypothetical scenario where nobody cares (and you don't do it in a way that harms someone else, like jumping in front of a train) it's uncertain whether it's wrong because you're pointlessly killing the future you, or just the kind of extreme self-destructive decision that isn't morally wrong but we have a duty to oppose.

 Peregrine wrote:

Well in the unrealistic hypothetical scenario where nobody cares (and you don't do it in a way that harms someone else, like jumping in front of a train)...

It is an unrealistic scenario, but what if only 1 person cares about you (not in a loving way). Is his emotional well-being worth your life?

 Peregrine wrote:

...it's uncertain whether it's wrong because you're pointlessly killing the future you...

Well, there might be a point. As future me does not exist I have the power to decide what future me is like, and one of the adjoined adjectives might be "dead".