Self Sacrifice or Suicide? I legimately want opinions, as it came up in discussion last night

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**Jihadin**

Thou shall not kill!

When an insurgent trying to opt you out.....it gets real deep and personal like....in fact it make you out right P.T.F.O. and then you "Do unto others as they do unto you."

So you always goto hell period!

They have ice cubes in Iraq other then that...

**djones520**

Kovnik Obama wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
Depends. If he does so reflexively, then no. If he has the time to make a split-second deliberation about it, then it's perfectly acceptable to call it a suicide. And a sacrifice. Both are not exclusive.

No one knows how much time is left on the fuse once a frag is thrown. You do not know if the thrower held it for couple more seconds to get a airburst or pulled the pin and threw it. Depends on your Situational Awareness

The only thing that matters in the case of a suicide is weither or not the action who ended up costing the suicide's life was deliberate or not. If you sacrifice yourself to save a thousand, and did so willingly and knowingly (and it would be weird to talk of self-sacrifice otherwise) then you also committed suicide.

I'll be waiting for those promised punches, djones.

Well, you most certainly deserve it, but I never said I'd deliver it. Simple issue of logistics.

It's ok though, you've made it clear that you think making a sacrifice to save lives is the same as the most supremely selfish action someone could ever take, and I'd say that shows the world the true nature of your character more then a bruised neck ever would.

**MrDwhitey**

The act of suicide is intending/wanting to kill oneself. I don't see a man who jumps on a grenade to save his mates as intending to kill himself, or wanting to.

He just does it to save his mates. He doesn't want to die.

**KalashnikovMarine**

That's a good point too. A willing sacrifice doesn't want to die. He or she is willing to lay down their lives for others, but I'm sure if there was an alternate way to save those they're saving, or do what they're doing that must be done they'd rather preserve themselves. A suicide whether the standard selfish variant, or the rarer variant that seeks release from a life of pure physical pain, is actively seeking to die.

**Talizvar**

Just trying to ground myself in the meaning:

Oxford Dictionary: Suicide: The action of killing oneself intentionally.

Oxford Dictionary: Sacrifice: An act of giving up something valued for the sake of something else regarded as more important or worthy.

If I went with these meanings literally you could do both: you could "intentionally" or deliberately kill oneself as an act of giving up your "valued" life for the sake of the more important many.

One of my favorite quotes:

“The instinct to survive is human nature itself, and every aspect of our personalities derives from it. Anything that conflicts with the survival instinct acts sooner or later to eliminate the individual and thereby fails to show up in future generations. . . . A scientifically verifiable theory of morals must be rooted in the individual's instinct to survive--and nowhere else!--and must correctly describe the hierarchy of survival, note the motivations at each level, and resolve all conflicts.
We have such a theory now; we can solve any moral problem, on any level. Self-interest, love of family, duty to country, responsibility toward the human race . . . .
The basis of all morality is duty, a concept with the same relation to group that self-interest has to individual.”

― Robert A. Heinlein, Starship Troopers

**SilverMK2**

djones520 wrote:
It's ok though, you've made it clear that you think making a sacrifice to save lives is the same as the most supremely selfish action someone could ever take, and I'd say that shows the world the true nature of your character more then a bruised neck ever would.

At the end of the day both leave you with a sack of meat, the rest is semantics. Suicide and sacrifice are not mutually exclusive concepts and has already been pointed out, suicide isn't always "the most supremelt selfish action someone could ever take", especially so if you consider causing the end of your life to help/save others to be suicide, which I would say is a perfectly acceptable usage of the word suicide.

Never heard of the expression suicide by combat?

**Kovnik Obama**

MrDwhitey wrote:
The act of suicide is intending/wanting to kill oneself. I don't see a man who jumps on a grenade to save his mates as intending to kill himself, or wanting to.

He just does it to save his mates. He doesn't want to die.

No, the act of suicide is taking a deliberate action toward ending one's life. The intent may be something much more complex than just wanting to kill yourself. Often, the intent is to avoid the continuation of a particularly difficult situation which could have many solutions, but the suicide's state of mind 'prevents' him from seeing those other ways out. Most suicide's don't actually want to die, which makes intent a bad identifier, and intentionnality (or directiveness) a much better one.

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djones520 wrote:

It's ok though, you've made it clear that you think making a sacrifice to save lives is the same as the most supremely selfish action someone could ever take, and I'd say that shows the world the true nature of your character more then a bruised neck ever would.

Value judgements. Value judgements everywhere.

**MrDwhitey**

Deleted, as I can't be bothered.

**Kovnik Obama**

MrDwhitey wrote:
Deleted, as I can't be bothered.

Ah chucks, it's a long day at work and I was looking forward to the argumentative bout (that didn't involve threats of bodily harm).

**MrDwhitey**

Eh it was just pointing out that lots of definitions of suicide (I had quotes too! from the NHS, Cambridge dictionary, dictionary.com, google define and wiki) involved pointing it out as an "intentional" taking of ones own life.

I'm of the opinion that whilst a man who sacrifices his own life to jump on a grenade for example, is possibly technically committing suicide, it's still vastly different to someone cutting their wrists because they see no way out in life.

Beyond saying that I have no intention of debating it, no offence to you Kovnik. It's a subject I probably should not have opened in the first place.

**Kovnik Obama**

MrDwhitey wrote:
Eh it was just pointing out that lots of definitions of suicide (I had quotes too! from the NHS, Cambridge dictionary, dictionary.com, google define and wiki) involved pointing it out as an "intentional" taking of ones own life.

Yes, and its one of the main reason why this debate can still happen nowadays. Lots of dictionnaries still carry the 'morally tinted' definition of suicide. Most french dictionnaries, and I assume this has something to do with Durkheim's studies, use a different wording, replacing 'intentional' with 'deliberate' of simply finding another way to word it without refering to the agent's state of mind.

I'm of the opinion that whilst a man who sacrifices his own life to jump on a grenade for example, is possibly technically committing suicide, it's still vastly different to someone cutting their wrists because they see no way out in life.

They are both completely different sets of events which ends up both with a person un-accidentally causing her own death.

Beyond saying that I have no intention of debating it, no offence to you Kovnik. It's a subject I probably should not have opened in the first place.

No offence taken. As I said, it's a long day at work

**Norn King**

MrDwhitey wrote:
Deleted, as I can't be bothered.

I know that feeling

**Relapse**

Steve steveson wrote:
Its kind of a contrived situation TBH. I would say that in a situation like that the worst thing you can do is kill yourself. As patient zero you could possibly the best hope for a cure to others. You would be best keeping away from others, alerting the authorities and letting them quarantine you.

Self eradication would not stem the problem, but make it worse.

This right here. Just because you kill yourself does not magically make you non infectious and you will be in no position to warn those who would be handling your body.

**Grey Templar**

Jehan-reznor wrote:
Thou shall not kill!

So you always goto hell period!

Actually, that is the result of a bad translation.

The correct translation is Thou shall not murder. Taking the life of another person can be acceptable depending on the circumstances.

**SilverMK2**

Grey Templar wrote:
Actually, that is the result of a bad translation.

The correct translation is Thou shall not murder. Taking the life of another person can be acceptable depending on the circumstances.

It depends on which particular tranlation and version of the bible you happen to believe is closest to the original. Of course, since it has been edited countless times by countless people, with endless additions, removals and revisions it is very hard to know exactly what, if anything, the "original" bibles contained or said.

**Ensis Ferrae**

SilverMK2 wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
Actually, that is the result of a bad translation.

The correct translation is Thou shall not murder. Taking the life of another person can be acceptable depending on the circumstances.

It depends on which particular tranlation and version of the bible you happen to believe is closest to the original. Of course, since it has been edited countless times by countless people, with endless additions, removals and revisions it is very hard to know exactly what, if anything, the "original" bibles contained or said.

Considering that that particular section can still be found in it's original Hebrew, it shouldn't be too hard to get an "accurate" translation, even today

**Dreadclaw69**

John 15:13
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

**Necroshea**

Hailing from the side of the wicked nonbelievers, this is how I see it.

I see self sacrifice and suicide as the same thing, but that's not important. What I feel is important is how you feel right before you eat it.

Take the bullet for someone? I'd feel damn good. Slicing away in a bathroom because I bath in pessimism daily? Well not so good.

**JWhex**

Suicide as a sin only emerged in Christianity because life sucked so bad in the middle ages they did not want the flock to kill themselves to go to heaven and to relieve their misery.

The scenario really is too contrived for such a complicated subject. Anyway, everyone that caught the Captain Tripps disease did not die, so there was no gaurantee you were going to die from it.

As far as killing yourself to save others I always liked the response of famed evolutionary biologist J. B. S. Haldane. When asked if he would sacrifice his life to save his brother he allegedly said

"No, but I would do it to save two brothers or eight cousins."

That of course is the number(s) needed to "break even" in terms of passing along his own genetic heritage.

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Jehan-reznor wrote:
Thou shall not kill!

So you always goto hell period!

So advises the god that:

Killed the entire planet except a boatload of animals and a few misguided fools

Routinely empowered his followers to slaughter cities to make an example of his powers

Used his magic powers to make the Pharoah of Egypt, NOT release the Jews then murdered thousands of children on account of the Pharoah not doing what God was preventing him from doing

Chose Abraham, who married his sister and also made a prostitute of her, as the father of his religion

Lied to Abraham, had him attempt to kill his son to jerk him around and basically did not fullfill his promises to Abraham

Routinely killed hundreds of his own followers for minor offenses

Requires the death penalty for disobedient children and old men that gather firewood on the sabbath

Revealed in detail about how to build the Ark of the Covenenant and lots of other nonsense but wouldnt tell his followers about menstuation cycles and made life generally miserable for everyone by not just filling their heads with nonsense but not giving them basic instructions about animal husbandry, medicine or ethical behavior.

And the moral authority for that commandment emerges from the Hebrew god, lol I dont think so.

**Rented Tritium**

If someone from a religion which believes in martyrdom calls that kind of thing the "ultimate sacrifice" it rings pretty hollow to me. If you believe martyrdom is a one way trip to heaven, then it's not a sacrifice at all. All you're sacrificing is your human life, which your faith tells you is insignificant.

True sacrifice is going to hell to protect others.

This line of thinking eventually made me realize I was an atheist.

**Hordini**

Rented Tritium wrote:
If someone from a religion which believes in martyrdom calls that kind of thing the "ultimate sacrifice" it rings pretty hollow to me. If you believe martyrdom is a one way trip to heaven, then it's not a sacrifice at all. All you're sacrificing is your human life, which your faith tells you is insignificant.

True sacrifice is going to hell to protect others.

This line of thinking eventually made me realize I was an atheist.

I don't think that dying for others getting you into heaven doesn't make it a sacrifice, or mean that your human life is insignificant. The very idea that giving up your life to save others would get you into heaven pretty much by default implies an incredibly high value on human life.

**Soladrin**

Hordini wrote:
Rented Tritium wrote:
If someone from a religion which believes in martyrdom calls that kind of thing the "ultimate sacrifice" it rings pretty hollow to me. If you believe martyrdom is a one way trip to heaven, then it's not a sacrifice at all. All you're sacrificing is your human life, which your faith tells you is insignificant.

True sacrifice is going to hell to protect others.

This line of thinking eventually made me realize I was an atheist.

I don't think that dying for others getting you into heaven doesn't make it a sacrifice, or mean that your human life is insignificant. The very idea that giving up your life to save others would get you into heaven pretty much by default implies an incredibly high value on human life.

I believe the point he's making is. It's easy to throw your life away opposed to weathering the storm.

**Frazzled**

Again, very little discussion here on Option C: Joining the winning team and spreading that zombie plague.

**Ensis Ferrae**

Rented Tritium wrote:
If someone from a religion which believes in martyrdom calls that kind of thing the "ultimate sacrifice" it rings pretty hollow to me. If you believe martyrdom is a one way trip to heaven, then it's not a sacrifice at all. All you're sacrificing is your human life, which your faith tells you is insignificant.

True sacrifice is going to hell to protect others.

This line of thinking eventually made me realize I was an atheist.

Islam is just about the only religion that calls killing yourself "becoming a martyr"

However, I also do not understand the opposite side of that spectrum. Ie. Joan of Arc was made into a "martyr" for what? She was a girl who was somehow, mysteriously able to fight in a time where only men were really allowed to, and she "heard God" ? To me, people who refuse to abandon their religion in the face of torturers calling them to renounce and ultimately die because they will not convert are martyrs... Completely different thing altogether.

**Rented Tritium**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Rented Tritium wrote:
If someone from a religion which believes in martyrdom calls that kind of thing the "ultimate sacrifice" it rings pretty hollow to me. If you believe martyrdom is a one way trip to heaven, then it's not a sacrifice at all. All you're sacrificing is your human life, which your faith tells you is insignificant.

True sacrifice is going to hell to protect others.

This line of thinking eventually made me realize I was an atheist.

Islam is just about the only religion that calls killing yourself "becoming a martyr"

Nonsense. Christianity absolutely features martyrdom. It's even in the catholic catechism.

I had this whole internal debate as a confirmed and educated catholic. This is not a straw man, that was actually me as a catholic thinking that at one point.

**Ensis Ferrae**

However, you kinda have to look at each religion and denominations definition of martyr. Yes, Christianity features martyrdom, however their definition generally doesn't include sacrificing yourself. It does include refusing to renounce faith, even in the face of death.

**Rented Tritium**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
However, you kinda have to look at each religion and denominations definition of martyr. Yes, Christianity features martyrdom, however their definition generally doesn't include sacrificing yourself. It does include refusing to renounce faith, even in the face of death.

If you want to argue about the definition of sacrifice, you should take it up with the original poster instead of derailing lower layer conversation.

**Kovnik Obama**

Rented Tritium wrote:

Nonsense. Christianity absolutely features martyrdom. It's even in the catholic catechism.

You'd have to point that out to me. We call the Christ's sacrifice the Sacrifice Pascal because it is explicitely supposed to be the only sacrifice necessary to the complete redemption of humanity's sins (#613-614 in the Catechism). On the other hand, the Catechism's position on suicide, regardless of the intent, is pretty clear ;

The Catholic Catechism wrote:
2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him.
It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life.
We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls.
We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us.
It is not ours to dispose of.

2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life.
It is gravely contrary to the just love of self.
It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations.
Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal.
Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.
Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. the Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

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JWhex wrote:
And the moral authority for that commandment emerges from the Hebrew god, lol I dont think so.

Or you could actually inform yourself on the moral value of the Old Testament to Christians and Catholics alike.

The Catholic Catechism wrote:
I. The Sources of Morality

1750 The morality of human acts depends on:
- the object chosen;
- the end in view or the intention;
- the circumstances of the action.
The object, the intention, and the circumstances make up the "sources," or constitutive elements, of the morality of human acts.

1751 The object chosen is a good toward which the will deliberately directs itself. It is the matter of a human act. the object chosen morally specifies the act of the will, insofar as reason recognizes and judges it to be or not to be in conformity with the true good. Objective norms of morality express the rational order of good and evil, attested to by conscience.

1752 In contrast to the object, the intention resides in the acting subject. Because it lies at the voluntary source of an action and determines it by its end, intention is an element essential to the moral evaluation of an action. the end is the first goal of the intention and indicates the purpose pursued in the action. the intention is a movement of the will toward the end: it is concerned with the goal of the activity. It aims at the good anticipated from the action undertaken. Intention is not limited to directing individual actions, but can guide several actions toward one and the same purpose; it can orient one's whole life toward its ultimate end. For example, a service done with the end of helping one's neighbor can at the same time be inspired by the love of God as the ultimate end of all our actions. One and the same action can also be inspired by several intentions, such as performing a service in order to obtain a favor or to boast about it.

1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one's neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. the end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).39

1754 The circumstances, including the consequences, are secondary elements of a moral act. They contribute to increasing or diminishing the moral goodness or evil of human acts (for example, the amount of a theft). They can also diminish or increase the agent's responsibility (such as acting out of a fear of death). Circumstances of themselves cannot change the moral quality of acts themselves; they can make neither good nor right an action that is in itself evil.

Weirdly, not a single reference to a divinity. Could it be, perhaps, that you were talking out of your ass?

**Alfndrate**

Wow... I went to Catholic schooling for 10 years and I had never see half of that

...

**Rented Tritium**

Kovnik Obama wrote:
Rented Tritium wrote:

Nonsense. Christianity absolutely features martyrdom. It's even in the catholic catechism.

You'd have to point that out to me. We call the Christ's sacrifice the Sacrifice Pascal because it is explicitely supposed to be the only sacrifice necessary to the complete redemption of humanity's sins (#613-614 in the Catechism). On the other hand, the Catechism's position on suicide, regardless of the intent, is pretty clear ;

You're the second person who has tried to argue with me on this on the basis that "sacrifice" means "suicide". Take it up with the original post if you want to redefine "sacrifice".