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Yes, there are tactics to this game.
* Where do you deploy? What do you keep in reserve?
* What objectives will you go for? What are your plans to reach them?
* What targets do you prioritize to shoot at? What is the biggest threat vs. easy KP * If your army is an assault army, what is your plan to get into assault. (Hint : Derka Derka does not always work)
* How can you utilize your movement to limit your opponents shooting? How can you use movement to maximize your own?
* How can you utilize your movement to deny enemy objectives?
* How do you plan on getting linebreaker.
There are also general questions you should have plans for
* How do you plan on dealing with fast moving assault armies?
* How do you plan on dealing with heavy shooting armies?
* How you do plan on dealing with flyers?
List building should not be confused with tactics.
This is a great post.
To answer the OP, the reason people talk about list building the majority of the time is that it is the easiest way to help others over forums.
The most important parts of 40k are deployment, movement, target priority, and end game. The issue that often arises is that it is very difficult to discuss these things in a vacuum. The best way to gain tactical knowledge is by playing against a variety of good players. The second best way is to check out the battle reports of good players (especially when they talk about what worked and what didn't).
When people have issues and come to the forums, the quickest way to help them is by examining their list. That is why you see talk of spamming the undercosted and overly efficient units so much.
Both of these guys nailed it ^^
Sitting here and discussing what is fair/not fair or cheap/fine doesn't matter until a list is tried out. No plan survives first contact with the enemy.
Every unit has some sort of weakness. Figure it out, and exploit that weakness.
Here's to me in my sober mood,
When I ramble, sit, and think.
Here's to me in my drunken mood,
When I gamble, sin, and drink.
And when my days are over,
And from this world I pass,
I hope they bury me upside down,
So the world can kiss my ass!
IHateNids wrote: Actually, 6 LRMBTs is a very flexible HS selection.
And if they are all specialised, which they probably are, its not spam because they aren't the same unit
A Riptide is a very flexible Elite selection. Does that make 3 at 1500pts or 6 at 2000pts not spam?
Like I said before, I think we have a very different understanding of spamming units. I consider maxing out on the "best" (flexible and hard-to-kill or otherwise overpowered) models and units to be spamming. In addition, I consider taking just one or two types of model/unit (which will make a significant portion of a TAC list sub-optimal) to be spamming (i.e. - spamming armor, spamming infantry, spamming MCs, spamming Flyers). If you can do both then that's great.
"Very flexible" units are usually the only ones worth spamming. I promise you I'm not talking about spamming gakky models, units, or weapons that only have one narrow application - that may be spam, but it's not worth discussing because it's fething stupid.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/11 19:57:02
: Because I'm sure as hell not going all the way over there to kill you.
It depends on the player. If some guy just puts a bunch of x on the table with no thought to it, then yes, it's spam. If you go into the dojo for your list, and think...hmmm...If i take a bunch of x (or things with x attribute), it poses a question that my opponents have to answer, then I would say you're playing a skew list, and taking a chance that your opponent might not have the tools to deal (i.e. possibly not enough high strength weapons to deal with av14 spam).
From 3++
"Because your captain is smarter than Belial and all templar commanders ever, he doesn't discard his iron halo when you dress him up as a terminator. Remember this."
I just wanted to mention that what constitutes spam is completely decided by the community. Calling a list a spam list only gives you an indication of what it looks like. Spam is useful because it's simple and descriptive. An example used earlier asked if changing a DE Venom spam list to add a unit of Highborns in a Venom is considered spam. The answer is yes because every unit is mounted in a Venom. Spam is not necessarily descriptive of a list's strengths or weakness, but it sometimes is. DE will not often field Warriors unless they're in a transport, and filling all the Troops on Venoms, including Ravagers and a Beast Pack is probably best described as Venom spam because you can expect most DE lists to include Ravagers and a Beast Pack.
This is true of any of the list names thrown around on the forums such as Flying Circus or Psychic Choir. These just describe what is most easily recognized as the threat in an army list. They are often intended as TAC lists but may have a specific counter. This doesn't mean that the list is bad however, for example a Tyranid Monster Mash with dual flyrants and Dakkafexes will have a tough time against DE Venom Spam. Well any Tyranid list is going to have a tough time against DE Venom Spam because Venom Spam is good against models with T. The best chance a Tyranid player has is using a list they are comfortable with and know how to make the best tactical decisions with and Tyranids can definitely take games off of DE. Again, Spam is just a word that forumites use to describe a list and get some advice. "How do I deal with Cron flyer spam?" will give good advice whether the person is wondering about 3 flyers or 13 flyers.
It's been mentioned that "spamming" units may often mean that your list is especially vulnerable to one type of unit or weapon. This may be true, but if you spam Venoms then you're weak to anything with at least S4 so that's not the reason people are fielding them. If you take lots of Flyers, you do it because you know the enemy will often need a 6 To Hit. Sure many Tau lists are more effective against Cron Flyer spam but the Cron list should be built to be able to deal with all threats so it will still be able to fight back. The flyers aren't so expensive that taking some out makes the list useless. In fact, taking more than 1 is a good thing because Interceptor can only be used once per turn (such as from a quad-gun). So taking multiple flyers will improve the efficacy of the unit. There is a reason that we see many Necron lists with a lot of flyers but few with 6 units of 20 Warriors. Necron flyers are more cost-effective than Necron warriors and can tackle more targets thus it is a effective to take a lot of them.
As to the allegation of tournament winners not playing spam lists - this is just not true. Again it depends on what each person considers spam and being able to correctly identify the threat. I think that the only thing that can be said about tournament winners is that they tend to keep winning tournaments regardless of the list they use. The consistent factor is the decision making which is refined by playing games and not the ability to bring a silver bullet list.
Depending on what you consider spam, you could call any of those lists a spam of some sort. For example the 4th place is a "Monster Mash" (or a Monstrous Creature spam) list.
My only advice to the OP is to worry less about the terminology and just play the game if you want to learn tactics. People are going to suggest that you play a lot of good units because they are usually featured in lists which win games. If you don't like Wraiths then don't field them, there are plenty of options in the Necron book. Tactics are very hard to discuss on the forums in 40k because it's hard to describe how blobs of plastic men should move and shoot on a forum. Discussing which of those plastic men are effective is easy and if you're looking for strategy advice then this is probably the most common type of advice you're going to get.
Yes, there are tactics to this game.
* Where do you deploy? What do you keep in reserve?
* What objectives will you go for? What are your plans to reach them?
* What targets do you prioritize to shoot at? What is the biggest threat vs. easy KP * If your army is an assault army, what is your plan to get into assault. (Hint : Derka Derka does not always work)
* How can you utilize your movement to limit your opponents shooting? How can you use movement to maximize your own?
* How can you utilize your movement to deny enemy objectives?
* How do you plan on getting linebreaker.
There are also general questions you should have plans for
* How do you plan on dealing with fast moving assault armies?
* How do you plan on dealing with heavy shooting armies?
* How you do plan on dealing with flyers?
List building should not be confused with tactics.
This is a great post.
To answer the OP, the reason people talk about list building the majority of the time is that it is the easiest way to help others over forums.
The most important parts of 40k are deployment, movement, target priority, and end game. The issue that often arises is that it is very difficult to discuss these things in a vacuum. The best way to gain tactical knowledge is by playing against a variety of good players. The second best way is to check out the battle reports of good players (especially when they talk about what worked and what didn't).
When people have issues and come to the forums, the quickest way to help them is by examining their list. That is why you see talk of spamming the undercosted and overly efficient units so much.
Wow there is a lot of misinformation here. There is a misunderstanding of what the word "tactics" means.
Most of that list is not, in fact, tactics - but rather strategy.
Tactics are specific maneuvers made by an army.
Strategy is really what most people are referring to, which is a general plan to achieve a goal.
For instance, list building is not tactics - but that's because its part of strategy.
In the quote made by other posters here you list
" What objectives will you go for? What are your plans to reach them? "
as a tactics question. However, only the latter half really can be tactics as it is addressing the "how" portion of the strategic goal. So the first question is a strategy question, and the second could be answered as either a strategy or tactics question.
Its important to understand the difference between strategy and tactics.
Strategy is the plan, tactics are the execution.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To address the OP: You're right, spam is not tactics. Its strategy.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/13 15:54:06
Sangfroid Marines 5000 pts
Wych Cult 2000
Tau 2000
IHateNids wrote: Actually, 6 LRMBTs is a very flexible HS selection.
And if they are all specialised, which they probably are, its not spam because they aren't the same unit
A Riptide is a very flexible Elite selection. Does that make 3 at 1500pts or 6 at 2000pts not spam?
Like I said before, I think we have a very different understanding of spamming units. I consider maxing out on the "best" (flexible and hard-to-kill or otherwise overpowered) models and units to be spamming. In addition, I consider taking just one or two types of model/unit (which will make a significant portion of a TAC list sub-optimal) to be spamming (i.e. - spamming armor, spamming infantry, spamming MCs, spamming Flyers). If you can do both then that's great.
"Very flexible" units are usually the only ones worth spamming. I promise you I'm not talking about spamming gakky models, units, or weapons that only have one narrow application - that may be spam, but it's not worth discussing because it's fething stupid.
Well this thread went from Necrons... to IG... to Tau...
But in all seriousness I feel that you have made a very one-sided and Biased argument (not trying to be rude but it sounds like that to me), why? Because your comparing two different units from two very different Codex's, IG playstyle is a game of attrition whilst The Tau playstyle is a game of gunlines or rapid manoeuvre's, and those units help each army synergy-wise in very different ways, the LRBT is a slow advancing attrition game unit and a support unit that packs a load of firepower into the enemy, whilst the Tau Riptide role in his/her army is to shoot stuff from afar whilst taking a few hits due to its saves, secondly The power levels are vastly different and that is why they fit the roles in there army's in different ways, for example the power level is very good for the recent tau codex (its not OP but its very good synergy wise) likewise the IG codex is quite old, it has some good firepower but not all of it is best, hence why there are different roles in the army, as I have said the LRBT squadrons are a support role and a distraction (so they can take a hit and become a magnet) for the other units in his/her army to get their roles fulfilled, whilst on the other hand Riptides are a stand alone unit that can take hit or two, produce a volley of firepower and can help other units clear out units it has fired at that are essential to the opposition, it is an annihilation beast.
In regards to the OP, well spamming isn't all bad... but when you get to Min/Maxing you then get Netlists and that where the line gets drawn between a lot of threads similar to this, where there is spamming there are Netlists, but most importantly spamming depends on what the meta is as well, for example if there is a highly competitive meta where everyone brings Netlists, then Bringing a Netlist is what you may need (and I feel sorry for any poor soul that is forced to used one simply because their area is that high in competitive gaming).
But in all aspects spamming, and strategy in general all really depends on your meta and where you game. A better explanation of this I can give an example is in this Video, I think this guy has it spot on.
IHateNids wrote: Actually, 6 LRMBTs is a very flexible HS selection.
And if they are all specialised, which they probably are, its not spam because they aren't the same unit
A Riptide is a very flexible Elite selection. Does that make 3 at 1500pts or 6 at 2000pts not spam?
Like I said before, I think we have a very different understanding of spamming units. I consider maxing out on the "best" (flexible and hard-to-kill or otherwise overpowered) models and units to be spamming. In addition, I consider taking just one or two types of model/unit (which will make a significant portion of a TAC list sub-optimal) to be spamming (i.e. - spamming armor, spamming infantry, spamming MCs, spamming Flyers). If you can do both then that's great.
"Very flexible" units are usually the only ones worth spamming. I promise you I'm not talking about spamming gakky models, units, or weapons that only have one narrow application - that may be spam, but it's not worth discussing because it's fething stupid.
Well this thread went from Necrons... to IG... to Tau...
But in all seriousness I feel that you have made a very one-sided and Biased argument (not trying to be rude but it sounds like that to me), why? Because your comparing two different units from two very different Codex's, IG playstyle is a game of attrition whilst The Tau playstyle is a game of gunlines or rapid manoeuvre's, and those units help each army synergy-wise in very different ways, the LRBT is a slow advancing attrition game unit and a support unit that packs a load of firepower into the enemy, whilst the Tau Riptide role in his/her army is to shoot stuff from afar whilst taking a few hits due to its saves, secondly The power levels are vastly different and that is why they fit the roles in there army's in different ways, for example the power level is very good for the recent tau codex (its not OP but its very good synergy wise) likewise the IG codex is quite old, it has some good firepower but not all of it is best, hence why there are different roles in the army, as I have said the LRBT squadrons are a support role and a distraction (so they can take a hit and become a magnet) for the other units in his/her army to get their roles fulfilled, whilst on the other hand Riptides are a stand alone unit that can take hit or two, produce a volley of firepower and can help other units clear out units it has fired at that are essential to the opposition, it is an annihilation beast.
I honestly don't know what point you're trying to make here. As best as I can tell, your post boils down to: "IG can spend 1200 points on the same unit and it not be spam but Tau can't because they're different because..."
: Because I'm sure as hell not going all the way over there to kill you.
IHateNids wrote: Actually, 6 LRMBTs is a very flexible HS selection.
And if they are all specialised, which they probably are, its not spam because they aren't the same unit
A Riptide is a very flexible Elite selection. Does that make 3 at 1500pts or 6 at 2000pts not spam?
Like I said before, I think we have a very different understanding of spamming units. I consider maxing out on the "best" (flexible and hard-to-kill or otherwise overpowered) models and units to be spamming. In addition, I consider taking just one or two types of model/unit (which will make a significant portion of a TAC list sub-optimal) to be spamming (i.e. - spamming armor, spamming infantry, spamming MCs, spamming Flyers). If you can do both then that's great.
"Very flexible" units are usually the only ones worth spamming. I promise you I'm not talking about spamming gakky models, units, or weapons that only have one narrow application - that may be spam, but it's not worth discussing because it's fething stupid.
Is spam bad?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/14 00:51:57
IHateNids wrote: Actually, 6 LRMBTs is a very flexible HS selection.
And if they are all specialised, which they probably are, its not spam because they aren't the same unit
A Riptide is a very flexible Elite selection. Does that make 3 at 1500pts or 6 at 2000pts not spam?
Like I said before, I think we have a very different understanding of spamming units. I consider maxing out on the "best" (flexible and hard-to-kill or otherwise overpowered) models and units to be spamming. In addition, I consider taking just one or two types of model/unit (which will make a significant portion of a TAC list sub-optimal) to be spamming (i.e. - spamming armor, spamming infantry, spamming MCs, spamming Flyers). If you can do both then that's great.
"Very flexible" units are usually the only ones worth spamming. I promise you I'm not talking about spamming gakky models, units, or weapons that only have one narrow application - that may be spam, but it's not worth discussing because it's fething stupid.
Is spam bad?
No.
When did I give the impression that I thought otherwise?
I swear, Warhammer is the only game I've ever played where you'll get for trying to play the best list possible in a competitive setting.
: Because I'm sure as hell not going all the way over there to kill you.
rednecroncryptek wrote: I was just wondering, is there actually tactics when it comes to 40K. Don't get me wrong, I love the game, but is there anything other than SPAM lists.
Yes, there are tactics to this game.
* Where do you deploy? What do you keep in reserve?
* What objectives will you go for? What are your plans to reach them?
* What targets do you prioritize to shoot at? What is the biggest threat vs. easy KP * If your army is an assault army, what is your plan to get into assault. (Hint : Derka Derka does not always work)
* How can you utilize your movement to limit your opponents shooting? How can you use movement to maximize your own?
* How can you utilize your movement to deny enemy objectives?
* How do you plan on getting linebreaker.
There are also general questions you should have plans for
* How do you plan on dealing with fast moving assault armies?
* How do you plan on dealing with heavy shooting armies?
* How you do plan on dealing with flyers?
List building should not be confused with tactics.
Thanks, this is great, I will consistently ask myself these questions when building lists from now on and playing games... this is actually really good.
i think "spam" is a misnomer. its a internet catch phrase that people have taken and applied to everything, and its overused.
honestly, when i build a list, i try to acomplish one thing: all my units working together to achieve a goal.
am i going to attack melee or shooting?
if melee, how do i get there? if shooting, whats my ideal range?
for example, before i came on dakka, i developed a ork list through trial and error. i tried multiple configurations of multiple units, and discovered that 12 boys in a truck, was "the best" selection. (in 4th-5th) i found that unit got into combat more reliably, with more boys in left to fight, vrs foot sloggers, who took longer and ended up with a fraction of starting unit strength. thus, i started deploying all my boys in trukks. after that, came the nobs ditching the BW for trucks, and the biker nobs joining them (as they could keep pace) and thus my "trukk spam" list was born. shortly after i joined dakka, and became immersed in the internet meta, and the concept of "spam" lists - wich to me just meant making sure your whole army works as one unit, doing the same thing.
my DE venom list followed the same idea. everything doing the same thing.
now im working on finishing necrons, wich i have 2 builds for. ones a teleporting veil list, the other a scythe "spam" and im considering a silver tide of warriors and ghost arks for a third variant. each one has some simaler elements, but all follow a certain method of attack, and attack strategy, and honestly to make sure everything works as it supposed to, redundancy and multiple "copies" ensures i meet army comp requirments, while still keeping my army as one "unit" rather then some is CC some is fast CC some is shooty, some is long range static shooty and the rest is just,....there....
when i start rebuilding my tau, i plan on doing the same thing. making sure the army works one way, and does it well. spam is a four letter word and does not really convey the proper design and list building technique to most people... now, the guy who looks at the tourney boards, finds the list that he thinks wins the most, then copies it - thats more like spam. cheap ripoffs or copies of the real deal, hastilly put together to acomplish something, but all you often get is a bad aftertaste.
: Because I'm sure as hell not going all the way over there to kill you.
5000 pts
2000 
Night Lords (40k): 3500pts
Klan Zaw Klan: 4000pts
5000+ pts
1000+ pts 
for trying to play the best list possible in a competitive setting.
