Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Great battle report and I really like the army list. I'm thinking of doing something similar with a Nurgle theme - how do you think Plague Marines would play out instead of beserkers? Might be more helpful in a MC heavy meta?

Steffo wrote:You are forgetting about the curse of black mace.

Hmm. I could make it less bad by spreading my guys out a bit. If I can cut down on the number of models within 3" during the first couple of turns, I won't be the worst possible off.

Still...

StarTrotter wrote:Anyways I'd like to give some warnings about MC for daemons.

Likewise.

BlkTom wrote: you would not be satisfied, specially without the infiltrate. I don't think you would be satisfied with Cultists holding your rear. Chaos LRs do not have POTMS, so at full BS you move 6" and fire one weapon (snap shooting the rest) or move 12" and fire only snap shots.

Well, firstly, the cultists would be in the land raiders, secondly, I'd only hang back and shoot lascannons if I had to (but I'd have the option to, unlike now). The list would look something like.

Abaddon
Sorcerer - 3x lvl mastery, terminator armor

4x terminators - swag
4x terminators - likewise

10x cultists
10x cultists

Land raider - dozer blade, destroyer blades
Land raider - dozer blade, destroyer blades
Land raider - dozer blade, destroyer blades
Land raider - dozer blade, destroyer blades

Dundas wrote:Great battle report and I really like the army list. I'm thinking of doing something similar with a Nurgle theme - how do you think Plague Marines would play out instead of beserkers? Might be more helpful in a MC heavy meta?

I doubt it. MCs are going to ignore both +T and FNP. Yes, you have poisoned blades, but they still don't have Ap, and they're striking last with bad I, so you'll lose some models before you get to strike.

Anyways, I could see a version of this working with nurgle. They have more durability getting to a target, and a bit more durability in close combat (the -1I does weight on FNP a bit, plus they're more expensive). I guess they'd sort of be like terminators - stronger against bolters and chainswords, but no more durable against the heavier stuff for a price hike.

Actually, I'm not certain they'd be straight better against the small stuff, though. Berzerkers with FC wound T3 on 2's, not 4's, and khorne gives you more attacks. In any case, I can see everything in the elites section of the codex as being roughly as good in CC when painting a very broad brush (they're all good, but against different targets and do different things differently. If you want to try a version of this with PMs, then go ahead, and tell us how it goes.

I doubt it. MCs are going to ignore both +T and FNP. Yes, you have poisoned blades, but they still don't have Ap, and they're striking last with bad I, so you'll lose some models before you get to strike.

Anyways, I could see a version of this working with nurgle. They have more durability getting to a target, and a bit more durability in close combat (the -1I does weight on FNP a bit, plus they're more expensive). I guess they'd sort of be like terminators - stronger against bolters and chainswords, but no more durable against the heavier stuff for a price hike.

Actually, I'm not certain they'd be straight better against the small stuff, though. Berzerkers with FC wound T3 on 2's, not 4's, and khorne gives you more attacks. In any case, I can see everything in the elites section of the codex as being roughly as good in CC when painting a very broad brush (they're all good, but against different targets and do different things differently. If you want to try a version of this with PMs, then go ahead, and tell us how it goes.

I think you're missing a few things. Most MCs are going to be S6. So now instead of wounding on 2s, the plague marines are being wounded on 3s. Plus, they still get their FNP. The MC might choose to smash, but that decreases the amount of attacks it puts out. I suppose it wouldn't matter for a black mace wielding prince as he would smash and have loads of attacks, but regular MCs won't do as well.

Plus, against guardsmen the poison will give you a re-rollable 3 to wound while against marines you get a re-rollable 4 to wound. I guess the issue is that regular marines will swing first and guadsmen will swing at the same time. However, the guardsmen need 6s to wound. Then armor. Then FNP.

So I think a case can be made for plague marines. But then you need those models and you're playing Khorne.

Right, you can do this kind of thing with nurgle, as said.

Most MCs are still going to stomp PMs flat, though. Even if they are more survivable, they're also a fair bit more expensive, so the durability is lost with bringing fewer models, and fewer attacks, and attacking later.

And in any case, they're not going to be decidedly better in close combat. Their chief advantage, actually, in this field is that they get bolters which they can shoot, shoot overwatch with, and then their opponents eat defensive grenades which causes the whole thing to bog down into an attrition slugfest, which, naturally, plague marines will do rather well in.

I liked the report, as mentioned, the arrows got a bit much. Maybe clearer colours next time?

Honestly, I didn't see you winning against so many fliers, but I see I was wrong to underestimate you. It was clear you kept set on your goals, it's that clarity that won it. A lot of people would have faltered taking so much damage, but you didn't I'm impressed!

Thanks!

You should read some of My 5th ed. Guard reports. I'm rather used to taking casualties. It's in my blood, I think.

Cheers, once I have the models I'll have a go with a similar list using PMs and see how it goes. I agree against some MC's they won't be much more durable, but the poison would be handy.

Another advantage is being able to take a couple of meltas or plasma guns to try and strip a wound or two before getting into CC. Does get expensive points wise tho.

Great report. I use a similar list at 1850 and have had some good success with it.

Huron
Kharn

20 cultists
9 berserkers, champ with power sword, rhino

helldrake x2

maulerfiend with magma cuttersx2

Herald of Khorn on Jugg, Locus of Fury, exalted gift

Flesh houndsx15

Bloodletters x16 champ with 1 lesser reward

People really underestimate the speed of the list. With so many infiltrating or scouting units backed up by the maulerfiends I can really get across the board.

I don't discredit your army, but I really hate that your strategy is "get first blood. Done."

And I know that it's way more than that. You can't get first blood and then muck about. Your movement, placement, target priority, etc are all spot-on.

But that 6th edition lends games to be played in such a way as "I killed the first unit, I win" seems awful to me. Just ridiculously awful.

I'm complaining more about the edition than your list. I personally feel that first blood should go to the player who first kills a unit without losing one during the other player's next turn. That guarantees it goes to the one that gains the first upper hand [I killed something of yours without you killing something of mine] and is a strategic reward, rather than "I went first and you had an easily killable unit".

I do like that you're running a combat-based list, though. I hate that 6th has made them such pariahs.

 Spellbound wrote:

But that 6th edition lends games to be played in such a way as "I killed the first unit, I win" seems awful to me.

Nothing about the edition did this. This specific poorly thought out mission did. It is not a standard mission.

....yes it is. It's two standard missions, featuring both kill points AND objectives. He said he was going to try to ignore both and go for secondaries, which again he said he was likely to tie on them, so he just had to make sure he got first blood.

Winning by first blood, to me, feels like the game doesn't need to be played past that first kill. I've had games where I lose a vindicator turn 1 to a lucky shot or a Maulerfiend because I fail 3/3 saves, and then we slug it out for two hours only to have that be the deciding factor - what was the point then?

Right, and it's not like it's impossible to go for the draw on a single regular mission either. With Relic and Will missions, for example it's virtually impossible to PREVENT a game from rolling on to secondaries. It's also not exactly that difficult to do on 3-objective crusade or big guns missions either. That it turns out that first blood fishers have an advantage on scouring and big guns missions, and, of course, purge, just makes it moreso.

Anyways, you don't need to convince me that first blood is a terrible rule. Because gunlines and alpha-strike lists needed more power...

I guess the only difference is that now I'm bringing a list to more take advantage of the game mechanics. If you want to see how this can really be abused, look at the next game. Yes, it's also with an Adepticon mission, but these missions are more exposing a glaring weakness in the mission system than are necessarily creating new ones.

 Spellbound wrote:
....yes it is. It's two standard missions, featuring both kill points AND objectives.

There's no mission in the book that uses these rules.

It's their combination that is stupid. If someone has 15 to zero points off objectives, but one fewer kill point, first blood wins. That's the problem here.