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Yes it does have a 360 firing arc what it does not have is LoS. There isn't anything in the book about firing arcs changing just LoS. Having the 360 firing arc does not in fact change the need for LoS. Just because you have the ability to see something does not mean that you do see it. I can see a house but if a truck or my hood blocks my vision it means I can't look at it. Firing arc is determined solely by mounting type while LoS is determined by looking down the barrel. If they were the same you wouldn't need to turn the weapon toward your target. Turrets and Pintle-mounts are not given a maximum arc of fire they have their arc of fire set to 360 degrees.

As far as the tanks are concerned you didn't answer my question. Where do you start the 45 degree verticle arc, by your limiting of the arc to where the weapon can actually move to then you start it out at the lowest level and move it up from there.

Gravmyr wrote:
As far as the tanks are concerned you didn't answer my question. Where do you start the 45 degree verticle arc, by your limiting of the arc to where the weapon can actually move to then you start it out at the lowest level and move it up from there.

I did answer that, weapons have a 45* vertical arc no matter the mounting. That 22.5* each way. That's on p72.

Yes it does have a 360 firing arc what it does not have is LoS.

Wrong. LOS is traced down the weapon barrel. The weapon must be pointed at the target. If the weapon cannot be pointed at the target because something is preventing it turning, then you can't draw LOS. How much it can turn is it's Fire Arc. Fire arc and LOS are effectively the same thing.

So no, a LandRaider turret does not have 360* fire arc.

There is nothing on pg 72 that says anything along the lines that the 45 degrees starts in the middle though. Just that they have a 45 degree arc. You are adding that. If the weapon cannot point down then that must be where is starts if the model stops it correct? That is what you are saying the the limit of the weapon arc is changed by the model. If there is a building that blocked LoS can you turn the weapon through that area? If you can then clearly firing arc is different from LoS.

To be a turret, the vehicle profile needs to state it, or the actual model needs to rotate like underslung storm talon mount.

Assembled properly, the doom scythe lacks both aspects. I also own one and it's baffling to see people argue otherwise.

Who's saying it's a turret?

Sorry I should have said "360* fire arc".

Gravmyr wrote:
There is nothing on pg 72 that says anything along the lines that the 45 degrees starts in the middle though. Just that they have a 45 degree arc. You are adding that. If the weapon cannot point down then that must be where is starts if the model stops it correct? That is what you are saying the the limit of the weapon arc is changed by the model. If there is a building that blocked LoS can you turn the weapon through that area? If you can then clearly firing arc is different from LoS.

This is moving very off topic.
Fair enough, a model behind a building is in the fire arc but out of line of sight. But that's a different matter.
The hull of a LandRaider stops the turret rotating, and therefore limits the fire arc and LOS.

In regard to vertical movement, it's 45* despite the actual movement of the gun. So your proposal to still use the actual movement of the gun as part of the fire arc isn't following this rule, is it?
True it doesn't say 22.5* each way, but can you think of a fairer way? Your method isn't keeping with this.

Anyway, back on track. The cables and teslas are still limiting the mount from rotating, thus limiting fire arc and LOS.
Still not seen a rule to change this.

You still haven't backed up the idea that you should alter the firing arc based off of estimation. You haven't countered that the rules tell you that the arc is based off of mounting type alone. I'm not seeing a rule to take anything but the mounting type into account.

Gravmyr wrote:
You still haven't backed up the idea that you should alter the firing arc based off of estimation. You haven't countered that the rules tell you that the arc is based off of mounting type alone. I'm not seeing a rule to take anything but the mounting type into account.

The mounting on a Predator Sponson can rotate 360*. The weapon and hull limit the fire arc. This is also on p72.
So yes, things getting in the way does alter fire arc.
Please prove it doesn't.

You are the one making the claim that there is no way for it to rotate. Prove it.

I have a Predator right here.
Nope guns won't go 360*, that's neither lascannons or heavy bolters. The hull is just in the way.
Want photos?

I believe you said we were getting back on topic. Prove that there is no way for the Death Ray to rotate.

Done. See those pictures? The weapons get in the way, as does the "cable" which is a solid mounting linking the model to the hull. If you assume free movement of the mounting, these elements still restrict how far the weapon *could* move

Over to you. Prove you are allowed to pretend parts of the hull DONT restrict fire arc. Page and graph. Now.

Only the cable stops the movement. The gun will rotate around the tesla cannons otherwise.

Not on the model I have it wont. Prove otherwise.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Done. See those pictures? The weapons get in the way, as does the "cable" which is a solid mounting linking the model to the hull. If you assume free movement of the mounting, these elements still restrict how far the weapon *could* move

Was just about to say that

Over to you. Prove you are allowed to pretend parts of the hull DONT restrict fire arc. Page and graph. Now.

I think we'd all like the answer to this!

pg 72 "On some models, it will actually be impossible to literally move the gun and point it towards the target because of the way the model is assembled or because the gun has been glued in place. In this case, players should assume that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings."

The Death Ray is assembled in such a way that the gun cannot be moved. Check.
The DR can therefor rotate or swivel freely on it's mounting. Check.
Compare the gun and make a judgement based off the model as to where it could be. Missing......
Compare the gun and make a judgement as to it's firing arc based on the model. Missing.....

You are adding a step that is not present in the rules. There are only these two lines to follow if the gun cannot move. To back up the fact that it is a free moving weapon they use anywhere in the rules for the gun. I posted a link myself as well proving that the cables are not the end all and be all proof that you think that they are. You are making an assumption that it would stop the movement when there is as equal a chance that they do not. Going by the limited arc you are advocating you are also negating the wording of the DR's rules are you not? The comparison of what else is on the model also would stop the DR from rotating or swiveling freely would it not? You are told specifically that it can move freely if they have it assembled so that it can't.

I'm still waiting for anything that gives you permission to alter the firing arc from the mountings.

So you're saying if I glue my Predator sponsons in place, I can then assume it has a 360* arc since it cannot be moved?

Does page 72 say they have a 360 degree arc?

So if I glue my Landraider turret in place, I can now claim a 360* arc?
Turrets are listed as 360* on p72.

Certainly. Of course now you have to draw LoS from where it would be.... doesn't your body then block the LoS? This is not the case with LoS from the Doomscythe as the angle is downward.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to mention the fact that you would then have to make the case for this not being modeling for advantage but I digress.

Gravmyr wrote:
Certainly. Of course now you have to draw LoS from where it would be.... doesn't your body then block the LoS? This is not the case with LoS from the Doomscythe as the angle is downward.

Wrong. This was shown many times earlier.
The arc of fire is not 360*

Actually it's Arc of Sight, not fire, but never mind.

The weapon cannot be pointed at the target "When firing a vehicle's weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight" - p72
This is because the hull prevents it's rotation.

Except in your example you would not be using those rules you would be using the rules for a gun that cannot move. In those rules where is it again that you make any judgement on the arc of sight?

Does it say the mounting can move freely, or does it say mounting, weapon and ignore anything else in the way?
If the mounting moves freely, but the gun would catch on something, preventing you pointing the gun at the target, then what allows you to ignore these obstacles?

Following the rule, if the mounting of the death ray could move freely as the model would seem to intend, would the death ray have 360* rotation? Remember only the mounting is moving freely by that rule...

Actually the gun moves freely on it's mounting. There is no quantifier that would indicate that anything has the ability to inhibit the movement. So where is it that the rule tells you to take anything else into account for fixed weapon due to the above? You can read the rule yourself above and in your BRB but until you find something that inhibits it we are at an impasse.

There is actually no rule currently in this game that allows anything to stop a weapon from turning in it's mounting. It's the physical impediment that stops it. If you just assume it is moving what rule in the entire book are you using to halt this? Is it intelligent to have a game without that rule? Clearly not but in the end as is always pointed out here this is a game of permissions. For checking or altering line of sight in this case there is no permission to do so.

Gravmyr wrote:
There is actually no rule currently in this game that allows anything to stop a weapon from turning in it's mounting. It's the physical impediment that stops it.

You need to point the weapon at the target.
Yes it's a physical requirement.

If the mounting moves freely as intended, but you can't point the gun at the target, then it's out of the Arc of Sight, and cannot be shot at.

A freely moving mounting for a Landraider turret cannot be pointed at a target behind it. That target is out of its Arc of Sight.

If the mounting doesn't move freely, assume it does.

This does not allow you to pretend a glued LandRaider turret can suddenly point at a target behind it.

Now I ask again, assuming the mounting (and as the rule states, only the mounting) of the Death Ray can move freely, can the Death Ray rotate a full 360*?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:
Assuming the mounting (and as the rule states, only the mounting) of the Death Ray can move freely, can the Death Ray rotate a full 360*?

Im going to assume your answer is "yes", as it has been this whole thread, so I'll just jump to the next question:

How can it rotate with those two cables attached? They're not part of the mounting so you can't assume they can move freely.

And to answer a previous question that I'm sure you'll ask:

Gravmyr wrote:
What are you judging the chemical composition of the cables to be and what are basing this off of?

C6H7O2(OH)3
Also known as Acetate Cellulose, which I believe is the plastic your model is made from.

You see, no rule says "assume your model is made of elastic alien metal". It's made of plastic.
So even if the mounting was made as a fully moveable mounting, there are still two bits of plastic firmly holding that gun in place. They're not part of the weapon mounting, so you can't assume they can move. You can't leave them off without MFA.

So with a fully moving weapon mount, the Death Ray cannot pivot, rotate or move at all.

Aycee71 wrote:

 Mandor wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
While the initial point in the 3d6 line for the death ray should be within the arc of the weapon, nothing prohibits you (the firer) from drawing the line in any direction, provided it doesn't cross over any friendly models. Keep that in mind when you're using your killy death ray gun.

Exactly. As long as you also keep in mind you can't wound anything touched by the line outside of the firing arc of the weapon.

You can wound models outside of LOS. You just can't apply those wounds to models outside of LOS. This can lead to a limited ability to snipe models from a unit.

Aycee

By that logic, a blast template that scatters over a unit out of LOS cannot allocate wounds to said unit. And the Death Ray is a special template.

As an engineer I can tell you that cables are used in such constructions to allow movement. If the gun was to be immobile then no cables would be necessary and any conduits needed would be fixed on the hull.

 BLADERIKER wrote:

Aycee71 wrote:

 Mandor wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
While the initial point in the 3d6 line for the death ray should be within the arc of the weapon, nothing prohibits you (the firer) from drawing the line in any direction, provided it doesn't cross over any friendly models. Keep that in mind when you're using your killy death ray gun.

Exactly. As long as you also keep in mind you can't wound anything touched by the line outside of the firing arc of the weapon.

You can wound models outside of LOS. You just can't apply those wounds to models outside of LOS. This can lead to a limited ability to snipe models from a unit.

Aycee

By that logic, a blast template that scatters over a unit out of LOS cannot allocate wounds to said unit. And the Death Ray is a special template.

Blasts have rules allowing them to ignore LoS for wound allocation, does the Death Ray?

Gravmyr wrote:
pg 72 "On some models, it will actually be impossible to literally move the gun and point it towards the target because of the way the model is assembled or because the gun has been glued in place. In this case, players should assume that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings."

Note this says "free to rotate" - not "free to rotate, and able to move through the hull or other obstructions on the vehicle"

You have entirely, 100% made up the latter. Page and paragraph in the rules, or concede. Now.

Gravmyr wrote:The Death Ray is assembled in such a way that the gun cannot be moved. Check.

False. The Death Ray is designed such that the gun cannot be moved. The difference is subtle, but HAS been pointed out to you now 3 or 4 times.

Gravmyr wrote:The DR can therefor rotate or swivel freely on it's mounting. Check.

It is assumed to be free to rotate, yes. Now find permission for it to be free to rotate THROUGH the model. You cannot find this permission? It cannot do so.

You are conflating "free to rotate" with "free to rotate, regardless of anything being in the way"

UNtil you can actually provide some rules you are stuck.

Gravmyr wrote:Compare the gun and make a judgement based off the model as to where it could be. Missing......
Compare the gun and make a judgement as to it's firing arc based on the model. Missing.....

You know, apart from the part where you are told it can rotate freely ON ITS MOUNTING, not rotate freely REGARDLESS OF THE MODEL.

"On its mounting" limits the statement "rotate freely". The "free" movement explicitly relates only to the ability to rotate on the mounting. It does not say it can freely move regardless of the model - meaning you have no permisison

So in fact, these last two "missings" from you have NEATLY summed up where your argument fails - you do not have permission, it is imissing. So you cannot do it.

So, again.

You can freely rotate on the mounting. You cannot freely rotate as if the model had no obstructions.

Youre done.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

copper.talos wrote:
As an engineer I can tell you that cables are used in such constructions to allow movement. If the gun was to be immobile then no cables would be necessary and any conduits needed would be fixed on the hull.

As an appeal to authority in a fantasy game set in the year 40,000 you will have to try harder than that.

Your real world experience is worth less than nothing as far as the rules are concerned.