Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I would either keep your tanks on the backline, as they have the range to sit back and shoot, and the ADL shouldn't be the only cover on the board, so you can probably get them at least a 5+ cover.

You can just wrap them to deter DSers, but ultimately it comes to a choice: waste an infantry squad that could be advancing, or risk losing the tank to a DS unit. However, the latter is actually not that common, with the only risks I can see are Crisis suits, melta Drop pods/ASM and terminators, as everything else will rely on CC to pop the tank, giving you a turn to counter them with PCS/vets. As with everything, it really depends on what and who you're up against.

Alright i gotcha. Yea against the de i dont have to worry about my flank to much as all his stuff will be from the front.
Against the tau the farsight bomb is all i have to worry about, but the good news is that the flamer demo vet squad killed of all the crisis suits and drones in 1 shooting phase leaving farsight by himself so its not to hard to counter.

I dont play against marines much as they are usually on my team or they are rarely around for a game. Only pods ive dealt with for melta is a dread with a MM which would be a hard counter as thats 12" melta bonus. Not much i can do there except hope he scatters away. Other than that just blast it with ally anti tank weapons afterwards.

Other armies ive run into is another guard player who runs a mech guard list with 3 vendettas and the usual plasma and melta vets. His heavy support though is 2 punishers usually and a manticore. Hes also run storm troopers with melta guns. Simple tactics i would use would be putting the line more forward and advancing to get the cover of it. I would bubble wrap the tanks to counter the melta units but remain spaced out enough to live against the manticore. From that point it would just be a big shoot out fest hoping i can manage to pop his vehicles further away.

Yes, the Dread in the pod is a hard counter, but if it misses or fails to kill a LR (and it can easily scatter out of melta range), then it's dead against the vanquishers next turn. If not, you're only lost one tank, which in the long run is not the end of the world.

The plan against the mech guard seems solid, I would seriously recommend going second here, as you need to counter-strike the vendettas. The melta stormies are harder to deal with, but bubble-wrap can work. Pop the transports early on with the vanquishers. Hit what comes out with everything else. Manticores are hard to deal with, but if you don't blob and spread your squads, you should be able to minimise damage.

as to hwts or guard blobs/gun lines failing ld checks/legging it off the table .

I have found that a rather nice combo is creed,combined with a regimental standard,,,then through chenkov into a pcs squad for a 50pt lord commisar,giving you stubborn,units with the ability to reroll

If i were to play a fluffy game i would use creed and kell but honestly creed is so expensive i would rather have 2 separate command squads that are the same. And using a lord commissar wouldnt be bad but for the points i would stick with kell because if an officer issues an order and kell is in the ccs then the squad receiving the order uses the officer ld which is either 9 for ccs or 10 which is. Most likely as i always use creed and kell together.

The Lord would be nice as he grants a 10 ld and with kell thats rerollable so its a great strategy but i believe it gets pricey and it forces all my squads to bunch up as the commissars aurora is only a 6" range. And manticores would have a field day with my army at that point.

Also in regards to ld and stubborn i would prefer my inf squads to fail ld tests when in assault because thats when the pcs with flamers get to do their counter assault jobs. They will spring forward to the opponent and put mass wounds from the flamers on them.

Would it at all be a good idea to try and get a commissar or a lord commy in this list so that if its a kill points mission i can blob up and not have fears of a blob squad running off the table?

A Lord Commissar is never a bad idea, as they make one squad (or two if you position well so he hits the edge of two blobs) pretty much certain to pass order tests, and if you need a tarpit unit then stubborn helps with that. With a power weapons and pistol of choice he also puts out 5 attacks at WS5 on the charge, making him a nasty surprise for unprepared enemies.

And yes, you preferably want squads to flee for the flamers to counter-attack, and there is a balance to be found between regularly passing orders and not getting bogged down in CC. Really, it's up to you, but I certainly think the LC is a good choice, especially if you are running blobs. You could also save a few points by buying one per platoon, but I would argue the WS/BS and Ld boots are worth the extra 10 points.

With this list i wasnt intending on running blobs but when i remembered the kill point mission i realized i would give up a lot of kill points with all the individual squads. I think i might drop one infantry squad to throw in a lord commissar with a power weapon into the list.

Have him either sit far enough back so the first couple of squads dont get his bonus an can fall back when assaulted or stick him with some vets in the vendetta to help protect him as hes my warlord then.

Yeah, he can be as risk as the warlord, but with a 2+ LOS, he should be ok against most things, especially with Sgts to take challenges for him. I like the idea of keeping him in the second wave as it were, Only problem I can see with him in the vendetta is that if it is shot down, he's almost certainly dead.

I will have to look over the list but i might drop the second ccs in favor of the commissar. Then with the extra points throw some extra upgrades around but then again dropping the standard infantry squad might be a better choice so i can maintain orders and have moral boosts and a better heavy weapons team firing

Alright so never made up a decision on the commissar still need to test the army more.

But today was first day trying it out. Played against eldar and there werent any wraithlords or knights. The battle wasnt me struggling the whole time as i seized first turn and his fire prisim was an easy kill as it was in the open.

The only really hard part was there was an autarch with a rerollable 2+cover and basically i had half my infantry squads up and 1 certain squad died but other than that the autarch was the only unit he had left before he gave up as i had 4 objectives.

Well done on the win. As far as the Autarch with cover tricks, this is where a Hellhound or even massed flamers would be good. Or, as you did, just ignore him, as 1 non-scoring model won't change the game with no troops behind him.

Yes the autarch having that rerollable save made it seem like I couldnt kill him. So I figured I would ignore him and kill all his scoring units. Once he got close enough I had the flamers spring forward and take him but my rolls were terrible and I didnt wound at all, I needed 4's and I rolled 1's,2's, and 3's like a boss lol. So basically my last 2 turns were my army unloading into an autarch as thats all he had left. But like I said he realised the little amount of damage he was doing was nothing as I had 4 objectives so he just gave in at that point.

I would say Im easily happy with this list and will probably keep it as is. If no other tips on advice then I will say I appreciate all the help as Ive finally started to understand some tactics and been able to build a better list. If I come across further questions I will just post them here and bring the page back.

Hopefully the different tips and strategies in this forum will also further help other IG players.

If your using flamer/demo vets in your vendetta try giving them shotguns. You dont need the lasgun range and the shotguns are assault weapons. If they survive the enemies turn, then you can still fire everything and assault

Thats not a bad idea, although i would just rather have my guard not get unto assault lol. Usually once the flamers, demo charge and lasguns go off the enemy unit is pretty much dead so after another turn of shooting and the enemy unit should be dead.

Yeah, I'd stick with the lasguns, you don't want vets in combat (except with tau, where they might just win)

Yea tau is about the only exception to try that, but otherwise I would rather make sure I have the increased range, especially if my dudes scatter from the deepstrike, which usually happens.

Tested the same army out again. This time it was in a game against eldar with tau allies. I was tabled by turn 4. He didnt use an autarch but he had some unit like it that had rerollable saves and he basically cast that on his wraight knight or riptide. His allied detachment was a riptide with a asic fire warrior squad and a fireblade I believe as HQ he used the blade and warriors to sit back and hold an objective and I believe he had like a Guardian squad or something sit back as well.

He had a serpent with some flamer wraith guard that basically zipped up to my line and just ate squads alive, I did manage to kill them all. There was a squad of 2 walkers that moved out of cover fired at me and moved back into it. He had a wraight lord but it didnt do much as the whole list was rather fast and it just took pot shots. He said to make the list better he would swap the lord for more walkers.

The rest of his list was just 2 more bike squads and that was about it. The hq dude on a bike with rerolling saves was casting the rerolling saves either on his wraith knight or riptide, so basically I had to focus on the one that didnt have the rerolling saves as it was almost impossible to hurt the big guy that had it for the turn.

There was night fighting turn 1 so all his guys were getting great cover saves which basically allowed him to walk right up on me.

I deployment was hammer and anvil and I deployed my line right up to the 24" deployment line and I honestly believe that if I would have kept further back I would have had a better chance as I would have had an extra turn before he was in my face. It was emperors will so we each had one objective.

Any thoughts? I know eldar is a top tier list as well as tau and them as allies is just asking for a loss but I would like to give them a run for their money and do the best I can. I dont believe mech guard would have fared any better as there were a ton of lance weapons.

I've been away for a bit, and I'm trying to track the changes to your list, can you post what you were using?

That sounds like a tough opponent though! Not sure about that reroll rule, but I imagine he can't reroll saves if he doesn't get them in the first place! Choosing your targets is key.

I find that the big targets can very frequently be overrated for your concentrated fire. A lot of the time they can only kill one unit that they have line of sight to, and can really only do one thing well. Taking out troops/anything running up to you is key with IG. Likely one of the biggest mistakes was misplacing your fire on those two large units rather than the bikes that were giving them the rerollable save and the wraith knights coming up in your grill.

Night-fighting can also be a huge hindrance, especially on the Tau who get night vision for something like 1 pt a model. Generally though, I take night fighting as an opportunity to basically redeploy/get into good cover for sunrise.

Just a few thoughts!

CCS 115pts
Lascannon
Standard
MoO

CCS 85pts
lascannon
Standard

PCS 50pts
x4 flamers

x4 infantry squads(not blobbed) 320pts
x4 meltas
x4 lascannons


PCS 50pts
x4 flamers

x4Infantry squads 320pts (not blobbed)
x4 lascannons
x4 melta guns

x2 veteran squads 230pts(each squad goes in a vendetta
x6 flamers(3each)
demolitions on both squads

Vendetta 260pts (not in a squad)
Vendetta

Vanquisher 260pts
lascannon
plasma sponsons
pask

Vanquisher 210pts
lascannon
plasma sponsons

Aegis Line/Quad 100pts

List updated 2k exactly

This is the list that has been settled with.

But basically he had an hq on a bike that has a rerollable save and he had a psychic power that allows him to give another model or unit(i dont know) a rerollable save. So basically as he advanced he had great cover saves because of the 2 bike squads and everything stayed close to cover.

If he put the reroll save on the riptide he would also use its ability to give it a 3+ invuln which meant you couldnt kill it unless you had weight of fire. The knkight was just hard to hit and a rerolling 5++ still made it hard as even s8 needed 4s. But I had killed all his bikes turn3 so he didnt have any scoring units. The only problem was the riptides large blast and the weight of fire that all of his squads could put out.

Because I deployed close up and with night fighting he was in to assault turn 2 so I suppose I should have deployed back to get an extra turn of shooting. He focused on my command squads early so I couldnt exactly rely on orders.

Would it be possibly to drop 1 of the platoons and a CCS and add more vets in chimeras to get better shooting and more focused higher strength weapons.

That sounds like it was a pretty rough matchup Eldar+tau is very hard to beat with most lists. Unless it has been changed, though, the Fortune power (re-roll saves) only works on eldar (not had a good look at the new 'dex, but it was FAQed that way for the last one), so just query that next time you play the guy. I may be wrong, but if not, then that could change things a bit, making the Riptide a bit less tough.

From what I can see, you suffered from being outmanoeuvred, which is something the guard struggle with in most lists. With the bikes, Wraithguard and walkers, I can see how this was the case. I agree on moving your deployment back in this case, as it means he either has to advance with the FW and guardians, taking them off objectives, or surrender them to doing nothing and then being hit late-game by your flamer vets.

Dropping a platoon and CCS for a couple more vet squads will allow you to react faster to any closing threat before they can put too much distance between you and them, but will mean you have a far lower model count and possibly lose durability overall depending on what kind of AT the enemy brings. If they bring lots, then you're stuck playing foot-guard by the end of T2 as all the transports get popped, if they don't then you have fast scoring units that are largely untouchable, but you won't know that until you go into the game.

As was said above, avoid fire on the big toys if there is a more pressing threat, take out scoring troops (and with eldar go for the psykers, as they lose effectiveness without the buffs), and accept the fact the Tide and Knight are killing a few infantry a turn. The vanquishers and Vendettas should also make short work of them if there are no better targets. Also with night-fighting, bear in mind your Russes have searchlights, so you could light up the approaching bikes and drop their cover save a bit. Admittedly you lose the same bonus for the russes, but it could certainly help if you can bring enough fire to bear.

Hope that helps.

I will definitely ask about that psychic power, or even post it in the rules forum to hopefully get a confirmation.

The mech units was a bad idea, i really dont know why i suggested that as after I thought about it that just meant that if those chimeras blow up they will kill more of my men and do more damage, they would have a 4+ from the line but otherwise I would maybe be able to squeeze 3 in, But im just going to work with the list I have and get used to it as if I keep changing it up I wont get the play style down.

The vanqs and the vendettas fired on the knight but as its t8 it was a challenge just to wound it and once it was wounded it invuln was annoying to get through even when it was rerollable it was more difficult.

I will have to say that I did forget about the search lights, yes it would have benefited my opponent but in the end reducing the cover woud have been good because turn 1 night fighting he got a 2+ save on all his units whether it was armor or cover though it was mainly cover. But it could have been reduced and I could have used weight of fire and I should have focused on other units.

It was certainly a hard match up and I honestly think against any armies that are very fast or bike heavy I will have to turtle up because being aggressive and holding the field is key but after that game I truly saw how slow guard is and they are just to slow to react and the units were to close with good saves and after turn 2-3 I was basically surrounded and as its a slow army I could barely properly get good things going.

Yeah, don't change the list too much, as you need to get used to it. The mech would either go badly as you say, or make you incredibly durable, but it's too much of a gamble on what your opponent brings.

As I said, the vanqs should only be hitting the big MCs if there isn't a more pressing threat, as in terms of damage per shot they are generally more effective against other things.

Using searchlights and hitting the bikes with all you have seems like a good idea if you go up against this or a similar list again, as if you can take the wind out of the initial punch it can force the enemy to change strategy rather drastically. Also, consider an Eradicator if you end up facing this a lot, the PC/LC Vanq is good for TAC, but sometimes something meta-specific can give you an edge.

The key is just to learn from the loss, you can't expect to win every game, and losses like this can actually be useful for pointing out holes in your list or strategy, in this case it seems to be cover and target priority, so in future you will do better at these.

Guard are generally slow as an army, that is the trade off for the massive firepower, but there are some things that can counter these issues, depending on what you have access too. If you have any marine allies, a couple of Pod squads dropping the enemy backline allows you keep the guard focsed on holding a position, or if you'd rather keep it within the codex, stormies can achieve the same thing. The other option is a hellhound or two, their fast, high-S ignore cover tempates could just be the answer to the eldar bikers. If you go for these, I'd drop either a CCS or a vet squad to make points.

I will have to keep all the tips in mind, Im surprised I really forgot about search lights so Im fairly confident that will help me kill the eldar more easily in early night fighting games.

The I will also have my vanqs focus the big ugly units as they are the ones that can put out a lot of high strength ap2 shots to really do the hurt on them.

In my meta theres an eldar player and a dark eldar player that are pretty much the most competitive right now. They dont really play each other so its common to play one of them, with the de player he also likes playing thousand suns chaos so im sure this guard army would make quick work of that list. Other armies consist of tau, IG mech/foot, GK and BA and farsight enclave.

I will think about the hell hounds it sounds rather interesting and so does the storm troopers, originally the vet squads were more for that roll but as the vendetta has to get to the other side of the board they risk getting shot down or killed when they do come down.

Can I ask you guys views on the following things for IG in a tournament setting (1650 points):

Master of the Fleet and Astropath. Over the course of 5 games (using flyers and reserves and with the enemy doing so too) are they worth the points?
Commissars in general leading squads - worth the points?
Camo netting on Chims - as above. Cost vs effectivness
Primaris Psyker - as above in addition to overall effectiveness/army buffs.
Outflanking scout sentinels with either MLs or ACs? Useful or worth it?

Im going to be running roughly the following at 1650

CCS with MoF, Astro and Primaris in Chim

PCS with 2 platoons X2 (50 man in total) with 2 commissars

Vets with melta in Chims X 2

2x Vendettas

Scout sentinels x3 with ACs.

Griffon

ADL with quad manned by 3 Ratlings.

Im looking for advice on how to kit out the platoons and command squads really bearing in mind at 1650 you cant overload on LCs or other relatively expensive weaponry due to points.

Thanks!

I'd keep the Astropath, but not the Master of the Fleet, if anything you want your enemy to bring on reserves (particularly fliers) first so you can counter with the Vendettas without them hitting you.

Commissars are debatable, it depends on what you want them to do. If you intend to blob, then yes, if not then no. Similarly, the more they are going to be a target (depends on weapons they have), the more Commissars are fine.

I'd drop the netting on chimeras, the 20 points you save on each can be used to put weapons on the PIS (I'd suggests AC/flamer if you don't want to go LC/melta)

Primaris is good, use him to buff the blobs with biomancy.

The scouts sents can be good for a shot at side armour. People will tell you vendettas are just better, but you've already got 2 so this is a non-issue. Take AC as the volume of fire gives you more chances to glance/pen, and side armour is rarely more than 12 on the kind of targets you are fighting with them.

Thanks Para, enjoyed reading your advice of late.
As a list overall, how do you think it looks?
Its my first tourney so not expecting huge results but dont want to be crushed either!

This list looks good enough, in that it seems to cover all the bases of AT, AA and anti-horde, with enough boots to hold objectives. I don't really do tourneys so I'm not overly familiar with the current netlists, but I can't see anything that would be a fatal counter to this list.

If you like the advice, most of it is taken from the article in my sig, The Complete Guide to Guard, where I've gone through every unit in the codex and how to use them, as well as some key strategies and styles of list. It's quite (well, very) long, but you might find it helpful.

Good luck with the tourney.

Thanks Para, I will definitely have a looksee at the article.

You remind me of this moderate cross between Ailaros and Peregrine.

No offense intended whatsoever to those guys but you're like the middle man in the IG tactic mix

My only concern list wise is: no real HtH ability, barring blobbing with a 50 man - which can only engage so much and long range anti AV14/heavy counters (triple LRs/Monos, trip Rips, trip WKs etc).
I cant see 2x Vet chims getitng close enough, fast enough and 2x Vends arent optimal VS them.

One other point: point taken about not having the MoF VS other fliers but what about drop pods/outflankers? Denying them that one extra turn of arrival might mean focusing down their main force better/quicker?
Is MoF still not worth it in your opinion?

Thanks for the compliment, I just try to help.

As for the MOF, against Drop pods he will only delay half of them, so he's not so effective there (although as a marine player, I can attest to ho annoying it is to have pods arrive late), and against outflankers he can be useful, if you see/expect to see a lot of those, then take him, but on the whole, I reckon you should only be taking him after if you have points left after sorting the bread and butter of the army. For example, if I had the choice between an GL/AC Platoon and a MOF, or a LC.MG platoon but no MOF, then I'd go with the latter.

HTH is something you kind of have to accept with IG unless you're bringing power blobs, ogryn or RR, but by keeping the squads seperate then you can mitigate this a little, as the charging unit kills10 guys and is then left in the open against the rest of the army. A nice trick here is to load your PCS with flamers and put the behind the line, and burn whatever gets through. I've used this against most things rather effectively, as it gives you enough wounds to hurt GEQ massively, but also force enough saves on MEQ/TEQ to severely cripple the squad.

Against heavy targets, you are lacking some punch, but if you drop the sents and griffon, and can fine 15 points elsewhere (I'd drop the commissars, as blobs are the only use for them and you ideally want separate squads in 5/6 missions), you can fit in a LC/PC vanquisher, which gives you long range AT for LR and the like, and enough AP2 to put wounds on the big nasties. Again, this is also something IS with LC can contribute to, so I'd make that almost a priority upgrade. The chances are if they are bringing AV14 they aren't bringing MCs, and vice versa, so having stuff that can handle both is useful. With a LC in each IS, a LC/PC vanquisher and the 2 'dettas if you need them you should be able to manage. At 1650, I doubt you'll see more than 2 AV14/MC types (except against nids, but that's to be expected)

Excellent Para.

As for the MOF, against Drop pods he will only delay half of them, so he's not so effective there (although as a marine player, I can attest to ho annoying it is to have pods arrive late), and against outflankers he can be useful, if you see/expect to see a lot of those,

I just dont know mate, thats why over the 5 games he might be worth it. I think I'll stick with it but VS fliers you're right hes....!
Is it mandatory to have the -1 or can you choose? Dont have Codex to hand.

HTH is something you kind of have to accept with IG unless you're bringing power blobs, ogryn or RR, but by keeping the squads seperate then you can mitigate this a little, as the charging unit kills10 guys and is then left in the open against the rest of the army. A nice trick here is to load your PCS with flamers and put the behind the line, and burn whatever gets through. I've used this against most things rather effectively, as it gives you enough wounds to hurt GEQ massively, but also force enough saves on MEQ/TEQ to severely cripple the squad.

Nice idea, will practice that.

Against heavy targets, you are lacking some punch, but if you drop the sents and griffon, and can fine 15 points elsewhere (I'd drop the commissars, as blobs are the only use for them and you ideally want separate squads in 5/6 missions), you can fit in a LC/PC vanquisher,

My only (albeit somewhat biased view here) is that the Giff has rarely if ever failed me (Ive seen it kill 5 MEQs in cover and do all sorts over the course of 6 turns - reroll scatter with str6 ap4 large blast is brill imho). I intend it to be behind BLoS or the ADL for a good save/unkillable unit and pound away over 6 turns over 5 games.
Dropping the sentinels and it for the Vanq I dont feel would be worth it?

In addition VS an alpha strike list/long range heavy anti AV army; it'll be nuked fast, where as the Griff and sentinels hopefully wont ever get hit (much).

Great food for thought though, thanks a lot.