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Fun fact: a single lascannon hit has a 5.5% chance of killing a LR Vanquisher (on frontal armor) in one shot, but a ~20% chance of killing a model from a HWS and forcing them off the table with a failed leadership test (assuming deployment 6" from the table edge).

 Peregrine wrote:
Fun fact: a single lascannon hit has a 5.5% chance of killing a LR Vanquisher (on frontal armor) in one shot, but a ~20% chance of killing a model from a HWS and forcing them off the table with a failed leadership test (assuming deployment 6" from the table edge).

This actually made me laugh pretty hard. It was like one of those pop ups on windows or a movie, I just had this picture of you as the springy paper clip. Nice bit of math and a very relevant fact.

Alright this thread blew up in the past day lol but i do like the discussions and the tips.

I will swap the infantry squads to all be kitted out with a lascannon and melta gun. The pcs will be equiped with flamers for counter assault tactics. The chimera will be dropped for additional points towards the infantry.

The remaining points will be focused on what i can do for the russes. I like everyones points on the different variants and the arguement for the lascannon heavy weapon teams. In my meta usually the only weapons that ever kill my russes from a distance are lance. Even then its rare as i always try to give my russes a cover save. But in general my russes are usually killed by melta guns or assaults. Assaults are probably 90% of the time.

I will look over what i can swap and switch around and see what russes i can put in the list. I got 450pts in lrbt's in the list right now so with those dropped and the remaining points from the chimera after i fix up the infantry platoons i will see what russ combos i can throw in.

I've seen 30 guardsmen get shot off the table in a single turn on more than one occasion. And then, as mentioned, you have to deal with leadership issues, unlike a vanquisher, which is fearless.

PISs with lascannons aren't bad (I've run a fair number of them for that exact reason), but they're not straight better than a fully kitted vanquisher either.

durn cowardly guardsmen... this is a really good point.

 tankboy145 wrote:
What would you kit the punisher out with as well, Heavy bolters to increase weight of fire?

And with the sky shield I would probably run it in a mech list as the artillery wouldnt be able to be flanked easily. But in a gunline list the infantry would be better suited with the line as it covers more bodies.

How do you equip your infantry squads? would you say just lascannons or would you have a couple with lascannons sitting back with other squads with flamer or melta charging up?

My mechanized list im not worried about as its pretty straight forward.

The gunline is the hardest to work with at the moment.

Personally, I don't like to kit out infantry, because I don't see much use in it, due to the fact they die instantly if you dont stick em into Chimeras, which cost an extra 55 points. I mostly use heavy weapon teams. Costly, yes but if deployed in the right spot, they can do some damage. I mostly go with 2x missile launchers and 1x Hvy Bolter, just in case. As to kitting out the Punisher, I discovered excessive tank upgrades to be unnecessary point consumers, because if you have many tanks, kitted out with useless things, the total of points spent on upgrades could have been spent on another tank, so I never kit out tanks beyond what they need as standard. Heavy bolter sponsons for most battles, should take care of any pesky infantry, especially Tau, or occasionally flamers if you're playing against a horde army like Nids or Orks.

Definitely take HB on the punisher, as fire, fire and more fire is how that thing kills stuff. With all Leman variants, the sponsons should compliment the main gun.

Again, I like to keep PIS cheap, usually using GL or flamers, but I also think that going to the other end of the scale and bringing massed lascannons and meltas will spell death for any army that relies on vehicles. I still think a couple of Vanquishers do this better though.

subbed so I can keep track of this thread - very helpful for my IG plans

List is updated so all the infantry squads match and have lascannons and melta guns. The PCS's have flamers and will be used as counter assault units when the opponents charge.

The chimera was dropped. The LRBT's were dropped to the Vanq's with plasma again.

How does the list look now?

 tankboy145 wrote:
List is updated so all the infantry squads match and have lascannons and melta guns. The PCS's have flamers and will be used as counter assault units when the opponents charge.

The chimera was dropped. The LRBT's were dropped to the Vanq's with plasma again.

How does the list look now?

The list is looking really solid now, no real problems to speak of. One final thing to bear in mind is you don't declare combined squuads until deployment, so if you end up playing Kill Points or feel you need better force concentration and effieciency from orders, you can always blob. On the other hand, if you come up against an army with lots of smaller units, or with a lot of vehicles, then run them seperate to minimies damage and maximise target saturation, and to engage multiple targets. With two CCS and 2 PCS, there will be plenty of orders to go around.

My only concern is that you have a lot of anti-tank and not a lot of anti-MEQ. I think you have 18x Las Cannons (might have miscounted there), plus the vanquishers? It might be wise to make swap the vanquishers for more anti medium units, like marines, terminators, etc. than anti-vehicles. Also keep in mind that the plasma cannon sponsons are going to have to fire at whatever the main gun fires at, so even if you do decide to take the vanquisher, you might drop the sponsons so the points could be used for some plasma somewhere else that's not generally going to fire at armor.

eclipseoto wrote:
My only concern is that you have a lot of anti-tank and not a lot of anti-MEQ. I think you have 18x Las Cannons (might have miscounted there), plus the vanquishers? It might be wise to make swap the vanquishers for more anti medium units, like marines, terminators, etc. than anti-vehicles. Also keep in mind that the plasma cannon sponsons are going to have to fire at whatever the main gun fires at, so even if you do decide to take the vanquisher, you might drop the sponsons so the points could be used for some plasma somewhere else that's not generally going to fire at armor.

Speaking from experience, the vanquisher with plasma cannons is great against MEQ in the absence of armour, and for anti-MC, making the tank more versatile than you think. With the sheer number of LC, melta and AP2 on the tanks, most armour will be dead T3 at the latest, and then all those weapons can turn on the MEQ. Massed lasgun fire also brings down marines rather effectively.

 Paradigm wrote:

eclipseoto wrote:
My only concern is that you have a lot of anti-tank and not a lot of anti-MEQ. I think you have 18x Las Cannons (might have miscounted there), plus the vanquishers? It might be wise to make swap the vanquishers for more anti medium units, like marines, terminators, etc. than anti-vehicles. Also keep in mind that the plasma cannon sponsons are going to have to fire at whatever the main gun fires at, so even if you do decide to take the vanquisher, you might drop the sponsons so the points could be used for some plasma somewhere else that's not generally going to fire at armor.

Speaking from experience, the vanquisher with plasma cannons is great against MEQ in the absence of armour, and for anti-MC, making the tank more versatile than you think. With the sheer number of LC, melta and AP2 on the tanks, most armour will be dead T3 at the latest, and then all those weapons can turn on the MEQ. Massed lasgun fire also brings down marines rather effectively.

Gotcha, I guess I just prefer to keep the Russ as a marine killer first and anti-tank second whereas you prefer the opposite. It's good to know that you've found the vanquisher to be effective in the absence of armor as well though.

eclipseoto wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

eclipseoto wrote:
My only concern is that you have a lot of anti-tank and not a lot of anti-MEQ. I think you have 18x Las Cannons (might have miscounted there), plus the vanquishers? It might be wise to make swap the vanquishers for more anti medium units, like marines, terminators, etc. than anti-vehicles. Also keep in mind that the plasma cannon sponsons are going to have to fire at whatever the main gun fires at, so even if you do decide to take the vanquisher, you might drop the sponsons so the points could be used for some plasma somewhere else that's not generally going to fire at armor.

Speaking from experience, the vanquisher with plasma cannons is great against MEQ in the absence of armour, and for anti-MC, making the tank more versatile than you think. With the sheer number of LC, melta and AP2 on the tanks, most armour will be dead T3 at the latest, and then all those weapons can turn on the MEQ. Massed lasgun fire also brings down marines rather effectively.

Gotcha, I guess I just prefer to keep the Russ as a marine killer first and anti-tank second whereas you prefer the opposite. It's good to know that you've found the vanquisher to be effective in the absence of armor as well though.

Yeah, the vanquisher has actually become my go-to tank recently, rather than my old favourtite the exterminator. I suppose a large part of the reason I don't use LRBT for anti-marine is that I tend to pack a lot of plasma vets and stormtroopers as well. LRBT are certainly good against MEQ, so I can see where you're coming from.

Yea with the vanqs having the plasma sponsons they effectively can put out ap 2 with all its weapons allowing it to hurt meq/tech. The vanq cannon an lascannon are to hopefully pop vehicles at a distance.

Also each infantry squad has a lascannon and a melta gun ontop of the mass of lasguns.

The veteran squads will drop out and pump out 3 flame templates, rapid firing lasguns and a demo charge. I believe that enough wounds to scare meq/teq evenly.

Only down fall i see with this list is that theres no large blasts aside from the demo chargea and the MoO. Otherwise the list has enough long range anti tank fire power. Theres backed up melta fire for closer up and with all that i can really put down meq and teq. I have flamer pcs for counter attacking enemy assaults. I have vendettas and a quad for anti air. And more anti armor. I have 2 ccs and 2 pcs so i will have plenty of orders to go around to really buff my shooting or get my guys bak in the fight.

Geq seems like it would be hard against this list as i dont have many large blasts but with plenty of lasguns, and flamers i think i will be good.

Tau might be a little hard to beat but as i got majority of my army with long range heavy weapons im confident i could out gun them.

As for the dark eldar im not entirely confident i will be able to beat them but with how many weapons i have i would be upset if i didnt give them a run for their money.

I wouldn't rely on outgunning the Tau, just try and kill the markerlights ASAP and get as close as you can to maximise the Lasgun firepower.

As for DE, you should easily pop any transports T2 at the latest, and can gun them down with tonnes of lasguns and flamers as they slowly footslog towards you

For GEQ, you have enough lasguns and flamers to kill the hordes, and enough AT to take out the tanks. It would be one hell of a shootout, however it goes.

I will say I'm pretty happy with this list and once i get to try it out i will post again how the battle goes.

Any other suggestions?

To be honest I think those Vanquishers are pretty overkill. You definitely have more than plenty anti tank without them. I'd probably take Executioners instead, although any variant that focuses more on anti infantry wouldn't be bad either.

 Paradigm wrote:
I wouldn't rely on outgunning the Tau, just try and kill the markerlights ASAP and get as close as you can to maximise the Lasgun firepower.

But for the love of god, watch out for their firewarriors. They rapid fire, outrange, wound on 2's and don't give you an armor save. Just be wary of the lowly firewarrior. They're more powerful than you'd think.

eclipseoto wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
I wouldn't rely on outgunning the Tau, just try and kill the markerlights ASAP and get as close as you can to maximise the Lasgun firepower.

But for the love of god, watch out for their firewarriors. They rapid fire, outrange, wound on 2's and don't give you an armor save. Just be wary of the lowly firewarrior. They're more powerful than you'd think.

I agree with this, they should be only slightly below the markers in terms of target priority, take them out fast. They may be good shots, but they die easily enough, even to lasguns if you can get in range.

I will surely keep that in mind!

At my local shop theres a lot of 2v2 games so as long as i can provide some decent amount of fire support we would do alright.

Fighting tau 1 on 1 im pretty confident i could drop their units fast. And my flamer/demo vets will really put a hurt on them.

Now heres a tactics question then for against tau. Would it be wise to put the line further up the board so that my infantry can advance and at least possibly be in range oh the tau? Because if i sit back i dont have many large blasts to really scare the tau.

I would certainly say yes, agressive deployment is vital. Every turn they can hit you but you can't hit them is a turn closer to losing, so you might as well charge forward anyway, and at least try and level the playing field. Play defensive and they will just cut you down without you being able to retaliate.

If you play a lot of 2v2, try and partner with someone who has a more assaulty army, preferably marines of some kind, as the two opposite styles actually mix really well and will force the opponent to divide their firepower, which can help both armies. Also, make sure everyone on the team has a specific role, as in team games, good communication is as important as good tactics. I've seen many games lost as two or more team members didn't comunicate effectively.

In 2v2 I've had good success against tau with two different options: Deep strikers, as they generally can distract the tau a bit on the turn they arrive long enough for you to get into really good rapid fire range. The other option has been with heavy hard to kill assault units. The tau will concentrate their fire on them (because they kind of have to, or else be assaulted), leaving your guardsmen to sneak up and again rapid fire the squishy tau.

Paradigm is right though, aggression is key, as they'll outrange most of your weapons.

So i should probably deploy my army at the edge of my deployment and maybe have my line placed 6-8"infront of my deployed troops a little closer to the middle of the board so basically i have a standard move up and i should be in range if the tau dont deploy against their table edge.

Now being aggressively deployed is that usually essential for all games, like should i do that against de or no because they are more assault based.

Normally against assault armies i tend to turtle up in my deployment zone and especially against deepstriking armies i will turtle up as well.

 tankboy145 wrote:
So i should probably deploy my army at the edge of my deployment and maybe have my line placed 6-8"infront of my deployed troops a little closer to the middle of the board so basically i have a standard move up and i should be in range if the tau dont deploy against their table edge.

Now being aggressively deployed is that usually essential for all games, like should i do that against de or no because they are more assault based.

Normally against assault armies i tend to turtle up in my deployment zone and especially against deepstriking armies i will turtle up as well.

Yep, deployment on the edge and the line a movement phase away is good vvs tau. If you can deploy second, do so, and put the line where you can hit the tau. Even if you need an extra turn to reach it, that's better than having to leave your cover to actually be in range.

Against a more assaulty army, I like to still deploy close, to maxmimise damage from T1, but fall back instead of advancing each turn, so you get more rounds of shooting in.

Against an army with a lot of DS troops, spread out to maximum coherency to deny them a safe drop zone, and make sure you have at least 6" of guardsmen between clear ground and your tanks/artillery to protect them from DS melta. Guard can actually cover a large part of the deployment area if properly spread, and speaking as a BA player, it can be incredibly frustrating to have to waste DS further back due to the enemy being spread everywhere. No one does this better than guard.

I will have to keep this in mind when deploying. Deployment is usually what hurts me in most games as a guard player because my opponent finds the weaker points and manages to break through or as i mentioned deepstriking he usually gets to close up fast and takes my tanks out.

Keep in mind that fortifications should be placed before terrain not during deployment.

I actually find that I prefer to fight Tau from 42"+ with my guard. They have very few weapons with range greater than this and if I am playing gunline guard I have a lot of weapons with 48"+ range. Try not to get into a rapid fire range fight with Tau as they are better than you at it, can ignore cover, and get an armour save where you do not. A decent Tau list will out fire an IG list in the ranges from 12-36" (not including movement).

Yeah, deployment is key, and where the battle is one or lost. I find a good way of helping with this is to try and have a plan for each unit. This is easier when deploying second, meaning you will often hand over the first turn, but on the whole it is more useful. Deploy your AT where it can best counter enemy vehicles, and your infantry where they can claim objectives and still be useful.

Also, it is sometimes better to keep a couple of hard-hitting units in reserve, and then bring them on the counter enemy DS units. This keeps them safe from the initial assault, and able to more easily hit where they are needed. A couple of plasma-vet squads in Chimeras are good units for this, as they can counter Battlesuits, terminators and Drop-podding MEQ quite effectively, and naturally become a target. Keep them back, let the opponent drop their units, the roll up and hit them.

With spaced deployment, you can also force the enemy to land where you want them, by leaving a safe-clear drop zone and blocking everywhere else. This forces the enemy to either play it safe and drop further back, or be agressive and surrounded.

The vet squads in the vendettas and pcs are the counter attack units against deep striking units although i prefer the vets to go and get objectives but if my side is getting hammered then i will have to drop the vets where they are needed.

Now in a list like mine i dont really see any units that would be good to keep in reserves. And if you were to throw me h vets in the list i have above what would you drop to put them in?

And if i were to go second i feel like it would give my opponent an advantage as if any of his units that can see over the wall would get good shots off on my guardsmen since they will be a movement phase back. The riptide is the scary unit im thinking of as its tall and has a large blast de ships are close to the ground so they shouldn't see over the wall.

I agree the PCS and fulfil that role, so that should cover you against DS units. Also, remember any enemy that
DSes will, unless they run, be clustered in base-to-base contact, and might present a great target of oppurtunity for the PC on the vanquishers.

To be honest, in that specific list there is nothing I would say you need in reserve, I was talking more generally. With the PCS, PC vanquishers and masses of lasguns, you should be covered against DSers.

I see your point about going second, but it really gives you more chance of deploying out of LOS/in cover, and get better targets for the long-range weapons. You will also be able to counter enemy fliers by going second, and 2 vendettas should down most fliers on the turn they arrive. The riptide may be a threat, but he can only shoot one unit (unless it can take the split-fire thingy) so you might just have to take the casualties. The chances are the wall won't help against tau due to markers stripping cover anyway. A few dead guardsmen turn 1 is a fair trade for better deployment options, counter-striking fliers, and having the final turn to take objectives without enemy reaction in my opinion.

I see your point a fully agree about having the last turn. I played an apoc game and a standard game over past 2 days and both games my team went second and literly having that last turn to grab objectives is just huge. And it also is pretty important to see how your opponent sets up so you can counter deploy and set up good firing lanes.

Also if my forces are going to move up a bit more to get better field advantage how will i cove the rear of my tanks. Or will i just keep squads basically wrapping around them to deny deep strikers?