Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So Ive been playing IG for about 2 years now. I used a lot of fluffy lists i the past and never really won many games as the majority of the people at my local shop play competitively. So I have started to play fairly competitively and Ive built a gunline guard list and I have a mech list. I do not play forge world and I unfortunetly dont have the money to order the books or some of the models.

Standard games at the shop are played about 1850pts but 2k is usually played. Right now the most common armies I play are nids, chaos marines, daemon, eldar, dark eldar, and tau.

Now a little about the lists they run. Tau I have little trouble with because my leman russes usually have a heavy armor to take shots and return a good amount of fire and artillery usually just blows them apart.

Daemons are either run in monstrous creature spam or in daemonettes hordes which is actually very terrifying. These list I feel like my mechanized guard would easily be able to go through rather easily.

Chaos marines Ive actually beaten and tied with but most common are nurgle marines or thousand suns, I have played against abbadon a couple times but these lists usually focus on 3 squads of the marine choice in rhinos with arhiman,typhus, abaddon, with a hell drake, forge fiend, obliterators or defiler.

Nids Im rather not worried about as its a close friend and most of our games are for fun but hes had some crazy scary lists recenlty where hes got 2 flyrants with 2 20man termagant squads with devours in pods, usually doom and some hive guard and 1 tervigon. The pods and flyrants are hardest for me as if the flyrants get iron arm they are super hard to hit or even bring down. Once the pods come in thats 60 shots that just shred rear armor of vehicles or just blow squads off the board and there 20 guys in the squad that are usually fearless do to synapse.

Eldar. Jet Bikes, their skimmer transports that turn pens into glances, and 3 wraith lords. Guy usually has 2 basic squads that sit back to hold home objectives behind a line while everything else moves up in your face

Last but not least the Dark eldar. This army is one of the most competitive players/ armies at our shop, usually either wyches or warrios in raiders with I believe 2-3 venoms with these crazy blaster units inside, lylith or duke as hq. A couple of ravegers and a razor wing. In games against this list you usually know by the end of turn 2 who wins. Basically everything moves up shooting or turbo boosting to get a crazy cover save as night fight adds to their cover from turbo boosting skimmer. The units usually all have FnP which always turns to be a problem. The problem with mech and gunline for this list is either it gets in gunlines face to fast to where the squads just tear through you in assault or if your mech they blow up your chimeras and before you know it your fighting a defensive battle in your deployment. This army is the one I want to actaully beat more than anything...

With the general Idea of what I play what I am asking dakka is starting from scratch with the codex. Building a list and then going over tactics such as how to deploy(this tends to be a problem for me at times) and then go over other general tactics that anyone can think of.

Ive used SW allies and they have improved against some armies but others just fail terribly against.

So now heres a little of what I run, mech guard list and gunline both have 2 vendettas each as thats almost mandatory to fight these armies, and Im just looking at the best all rounder list to take on most of these armies DE mostly.

Mech is rather easy as its CCS w/plasma, 2 mech vets with 3 meltas each, 3 mech vets squads with 3 plasma each sometimes it swaps with 3 melta squads and 2 plasma but it all depends on how I feel lol. The as mentioned 2 vendettas(Ive though about getting vet squads in here with 3 flamers and a demo charge or 3 meltas and a demo charge, the flamers worked very well for me to kick units off objectives) Then I usually either have 2-3 russes, they vary Ive tried 3 LRBT's, Ive thrown in an eradictor with bolter sponsons to gain an edge on night fighting and crazy cover save units, But recently Ive been running 2 vanquishers with plasma sponsons on each and lascannon hulls. 1 usually has pask. These russes blow armor and transports up from a distance and the sponsons go to town the following turn to kill anything else. I norally deploy chimeras up front so they can speed ahead and get to the enemy to make use of the plasma and melta weapons while russes trail behind slowly and take shots off of the opponent. Ive thought about putting the russes up front if my opponent goes first as they heavier armor is harder to kill and it will give the chimeras a base cover save.

In foot guard/gunline I run an aegis with quad and 2 vendettas. CCS with standard for moral and a lascannon to sit back. I then usually have 2 platoons where the PCS is either with autocannons or lascannons sitting back and granting FRFSRF or they have x4 flamers each and try to get objectives late game. I then run a minimum of 6 infantry squads usually equiped with lascannons. I find that with this base I get chewed apart easily as infantry squads die easily and I can never get enough shooting to bring down the opponent from a distance, especially the DE. Then I will usually run 3 russes, they are the same options Ive tried with the above mech list. With this list its simple for deployment. Line with quad somewhere with best sight to board. Infantry squads up front with the CCS somewhere in the middle so the Squads are all buffed from the standard and I can issue orders around. Then the tanks are in the rear so they arent assaulted. This style is already hard to play as I am forced to hunker down and hope I can keep my opponent at bay and it doesnt allow me to go out and get objectives and basically I have to hope I can hold mine. Simple tips I am wondering should I arm the infantry squads with flamers so they have something to counter horde and assult because if one squad gets assaulted and dies theres gunna be a flamer nearby to do damage. I tried plasma guns but the guys killed themselves most of the time or missed. Melta guns are the only other option as transports get in my face I need to bring them down.

So if anyone is still reading this novel at the moment what do I do, critique the lists, and add some tips for against these armies. Yet again I am sorry I dont use forgeworld as I dont have the money for it but if I did I would have sabre lascannons all over and vultures with punisher guns, then again I probably would lose as much if I did.

Thanks for any and all help!

Good list, very versatile. Some of my favourite Guard tricks that I'd also put into use are:
1.) Leman Russ Punisher. 20 shots from the mini gun is enough to rip through infantry and vehicles. Most vehicles nowadays have 12-13 Front armour tops, and with 20 shots you have a decent chance of scoring some 6's and glancing hits. You score three of these glances and your enemy's tank is dead.
2.) Skyshield Landing Pad. Grants you an automatic 4+ InvSv, which is something very useful against armies like Tau or Eldar who like their long range weaponry and fliers. You slap 2 Basilisks and a Techpriest on that, and just fire away while all those pesky Rail Guns slide off ya.

Just small personal preferences. Hope it helps!

What would you kit the punisher out with as well, Heavy bolters to increase weight of fire?

And with the sky shield I would probably run it in a mech list as the artillery wouldnt be able to be flanked easily. But in a gunline list the infantry would be better suited with the line as it covers more bodies.

How do you equip your infantry squads? would you say just lascannons or would you have a couple with lascannons sitting back with other squads with flamer or melta charging up?

My mechanized list im not worried about as its pretty straight forward.

The gunline is the hardest to work with at the moment.

You don't seem to have any terribly wonky ideas with regard to list building or basic tactics. My guess is that it's probably something going on on the table top, which we'd need to see battle reports to know what's going on.

The biggest problem with guard is usually force concentration. Mech lists will help with this, as will the russes which you're using. Just keep them together (not necessarily the biggest fan of rushing mechvets forward in front of russes - mechvets are a defensive weapon to protect the tanks, not the other way around), and you SHOULD do fine.

And if you insist on playing a gunline, it's actually really easy. Just deploy and roll dice. I wouldn't worry too much about tactics, as anything you're going to want to do like moving or assaulting or whatever, is likely just going to make things worse for you.

I would agree i dont believe its my lists as i generally have taken all my ideas from threads on this site. I would have to say my biggest problem was always not knowing my opponents units.

I will have to keep the mech vets as defensive units in the back of my mind to try out in my next game.

I dont prefer to play foot guard but i do insist on trying to at least perfect it. Any suggestions as to how infantry squads are kitted, ive been contemplating running some meltas and flamers in the squads to add some closer range punch.

Couple other topics i had thought about was how are hybrid lists, i was thinking about having a platoon on 3-5 squads with lascannons and what not behind a line to hold home objectives while a mech force moved up or at least tried to flank.

And are any of the advisors recommended. The astropath would seem to be a waste as my only reserves are 2 vendettas. If i ran one other unit in reserves like stormies or marbo then i might throw him in. Officer of the fleet could be good if my opponent even had anything in reserves. And master of ordnance seems like a possibility for the gunline but i know that he scatters all the time so im not sure why hes a "master" of ordnance.

Have you tried running Exterminator LR? With a 4 shot autocannon that is twin linked I find them great for taking care of pesky DE vehicles.

Also with large blob lists I almost think it is required to run 2 CCS just so you can try to get "bring it down" or "fire on my target" for up to 4 seperate platoon squads. Again this really helps against DE since you will be able to either twin link your heavy weapon or remove the jink save of thier skimmers if you are feeling lucky with your to hit rolls.

Owl

I have indeed tried the exterminator but that was really only against eldar. I will have to give it a go against dark eldar. Would you run it lascannon and bolters or what load out do you recommend? I tried lascannon and MM sponsons but was to happy with it.

And for the foot guard list i do think i might try running identical CCS's. Anyone think vox's wouldnt be a bad idea for order?

The problem with facing the dark eldar is them turbo boosting up and getting cover saves, all their units have FnP and the darn flicker fields are annoying. The guy that plays them also makes a lot of the saves too. But im pretty sure their not weighted dice. So i personally think i need more s6 weapons to insta kill units or get a ton of flamers for counter assult. But i just need enough heavy weapons to fire to blow up his ships from a distance.

Any other tips for fighting a Dark eldar list like this?

I think in a situation as this bringing the most fire power I can is probably the best route for a gunline and if I run mech what tactics do I use to fight them with, if I lead the slow charge up with russes lance weapons will tear right through, but that just gives my chimeras a chance to advance up a bit. to get closer and use the special weapons.

in general, i believe competitive guard list built has two major points to consider:
1-run everything cheap, unupgraded, and whatever you decide to take, take equal or more than two.

2-make every units specialize in one or two specific roles that they are good with their point cost (ie: vendetta for tank/TEQ/MC hunting, plasmavet for MC or MEQs, manticore for popping LR and annihilating hordes, infantry squads for meatshield or suicide squad, etc), do not attempt to jack-of-all-trade, ever. It might work for marines but not for guards.

once you got these two points, competitive guard list building shouldn`t be hard anymore.

As for your lists, actually both of them are almost quite solid, but competitively, I would suggest combining the two together. We aren`t in 5th edition anymore where guards can just spam meltavet and russes and vendettas then blow your opponent up with blasts and lots of ap1/2 in smile. 6th edition has nerf the vehicles a lot by introducing the hull point and buffing AP1/2 weapons, therefore a list consists of pure vehicles, although can output a lot of fire power at range, can be wiped out pretty easily if your opponent knows what is he doing. (drop pods, meltas, flyers, etc)

the problem with your footlist is also lack of mobility. although the infantry blobs are pretty good when using as meatshield to protect vulnerable tanks and artilleries, yet you do not have a reliable long range attack. yes, paskisher is reliable for popping armor at long range, but it does not neglect cover, therefore anything that put himself behind a ruin would have at least 1/3 chance of making your shot useless. Plus, all your weapons are either long range one shot or short range small blast, therefore you are gonna have a lot of pain when facing anything that sit themselves behind covers, like tau.

so in general, i suggest you combine the two lists together, using your blobs behind aegis to protect your tanks and artilleries if you have one, vendettas flying around popping tanks and MCs, plasmavets sit in chimera to defend vulnerable points from enemy meq or MCs, meanwhile, tanks and artilleries, well protected, shoot blasts and long range weapons to make your opponent cry.

that`s it, hope it helps

btw, you may want to put your warlord inside a chimera, as slay the warlord these days is a very important victory point in many missions.

 tankboy145 wrote:
I would agree i dont believe its my lists as i generally have taken all my ideas from threads on this site. I would have to say my biggest problem was always not knowing my opponents units.

I will have to keep the mech vets as defensive units in the back of my mind to try out in my next game.

I dont prefer to play foot guard but i do insist on trying to at least perfect it. Any suggestions as to how infantry squads are kitted, ive been contemplating running some meltas and flamers in the squads to add some closer range punch.

Couple other topics i had thought about was how are hybrid lists, i was thinking about having a platoon on 3-5 squads with lascannons and what not behind a line to hold home objectives while a mech force moved up or at least tried to flank.

And are any of the advisors recommended. The astropath would seem to be a waste as my only reserves are 2 vendettas. If i ran one other unit in reserves like stormies or marbo then i might throw him in. Officer of the fleet could be good if my opponent even had anything in reserves. And master of ordnance seems like a possibility for the gunline but i know that he scatters all the time so im not sure why hes a "master" of ordnance.

My recommendation is to go to Google type in 1d4chan "name of army" tactics and read all of them. I personally didn't no anything about the armies have played but now I know what is a threat and how it is a threat. Very helpful.

I see dark elder as your biggest problem. I would do a blob guard list and surround your tanks with guard and possible an Aegis. Dark Lances are very scary to tanks. Autocannon heavy weapons teams should punch there armor apart. Use order and you can make them to ignore there cover saves.

tankboy145 wrote:I would have to say my biggest problem was always not knowing my opponents units.

Well, if that's your biggest problem, I wouldn't worry too much. Those kinds of issues will resolve themselves over time and with experience. Also, don't be afraid to ask your opponent about his list and what it does. I'll unabashedly pick over my opponents list and ask questions, and I'll also go over new things with my opponents when I field them. You gain absolutely no bonus points for winning with secrecy.

tankboy145 wrote:I dont prefer to play foot guard but i do insist on trying to at least perfect it. Any suggestions as to how infantry squads are kitted, ive been contemplating running some meltas and flamers in the squads to add some closer range punch.

Well, all I can do is direct you to my 6th ed guard battle reports. After trying to make foot guard work, my end conclusion was to play mech guard. Some foot units to hide on objectives behind an ADL is one thing, but as a comprehensive strategy, foot units are just too weak in this rules edition and new codex environment. If they had Sv3+ or better, we might be talking about a different story, but guardsmen with only a 5+ in a world with readily-ignorable cover saves... forget it. Much less actually moving up the table anywhere.

tankboy145 wrote:Officer of the fleet could be good if my opponent even had anything in reserves. And master of ordnance seems like a possibility for the gunline but i know that he scatters all the time so im not sure why hes a "master" of ordnance.

Actually, you're in the dead zone for reserves advisers. On the one hand, as you say, an astropath isn't really that worth it to bring just a couple of units on, usually, but on the other hand, you do have reserves, which means that an officer of the fleet will actually help your opponent by delaying his stuff from coming in until after your stuff is on the table, allowing him to counterattack.

The master of ordnance isn't actually THAT bad. He benefits from both BS4, and is always in range of a BiD order. His accuracy is sloppy with the extra D6, but with BS4 and twin-linking, it's not actually that bad. The real problem is that he's just Ap3, but for only 30 points, what can you expect? Throw him in a CCS with a standard and a lascannon, and you've got a decent support base with orders, rerolls to morale, and some moderately threatening firepower. For not that expensive.

tankboy145 wrote:And for the foot guard list i do think i might try running identical CCS's. Anyone think vox's wouldnt be a bad idea for order?

Orders are nice, but not THAT necessary, and I certainly wouldn't bother wasting the points on a vox net. If you also need a spare standard, and want another tiny, cheap weapon support squad, then yeah, go ahead and add in that second CCS.

Remember, of course, that you don't HAVE to run them identically.

tankboy145 wrote:The problem with facing the dark eldar is them turbo boosting up and getting cover saves.

Firstly, volume of fire. If you brought enough anti-tank, you've brought enough to handle dark eldar. Jink may be annoying, but they're still all AV10/11 open-topped vehicles.

If you're REALLY that concerned, then take a couple of hydras and watch as your opponent's army simply disappears. They get full-BS TL S7 4-shot weapons that ignore jink saves. Several months ago, when fliers were more of a thing, I entered a local tournament with 4 hydras. One of my games was against DE. He was tabled turn 4, despite starting the game with 11 vehicles. When you're a DE player and come across a guard player who looks like this:



... you know you're in trouble.

That said, you're probably better off figuring out how to handle DE without using hydras as a crutch. As said, they're handlable with regular anti-tank weapons. Hell, they're handlable with plenty worse. If you're bringing a mech list,for example, you have two weapons per chimera that can down a DE vehicle.

Ailaros, do you have any specific squad layout configurations for IG foots? I mean physical placements, I've seen you use a "circular" deployment/movement pattern before to mitigate VS flamers/blast.
Im going to a tourney soon and need advice on the nitty gritty of tactics rather than strategies or the more "net advice". Cheers.

I'd agree with the general sentiment that the lists are good, I think most likely what's lacking is good decision making on what's shooting at what, and here is my example: Taking vanquishers is a waste of your points in my opinion, ESPECIALLY if you have lascannons in your squads. That's your anti-armor right there. A tank is easy kill as opposed to your multiple platoons where each IS has a lascannon. Plus you can use a bring it down to reroll misses. Not a bad deal for bringing down armor and MC's.

Then you're free to blast the crap out of units with normal russes and their templates, or exterminators and their metric ton of dice.

Something else I feel that needs mentioning, I don't remember reading about your artillery? Every game I play the basilisks pay for themselves. They're relatively cheap compared to their output damage and will draw a lot of fire in general from the rest of your army. Ex. If a player has to deep strike a squad to take care of the artillery battery behind a mountain, then they've wasted time and points on dealing with one unit, not to mention that he's then in perfect range for the rest of your guardsmen to FRFSRF on them.

In short: target choice and priority.

Lots of advice and much appreciated!

The id4chan would definitely help and a friend actually has started playing DE so that will also give me the chance to read over the majority of the units i play against.

I am seeing a lot of my lists are good comments so im at least happy about that. Only concerns i have are that i usually run vanqs with lascannons and plasma sponsons. Reason for them is because even though i spam lascannons with the infantry squads its rather hard to still pen av14 reliably. Ive had many games where ive gone through 4-6 infantry squads firing their lascannons at raiders and monoliths and the vehicle still get up close and unload nasty troops in my lines.

With that said im gunna actually build up a 2k list later when im out of work for criticizing. I do love my russes but for a more competitive list i believe that the artillery might need to be thrown in.

@ailaros i dont have my codex on me but i thought the MoO always scattered the full distance and his bs never reduced even in Los. I do a agree hydras would be a nice twist to add in but i also agree i should focus on winning without them because i dont want to list tailor but i would rather have a good all commers list.

I also believe i will probably add a flamer or a melta gun to each infantry squad to add fire power.

I also prefer having multiple infantry squads to fire at separate targets but should i run any blobs with commissars? Normally i dont unless i have marine allies because most of the time my commissar is challenged out or the squads are killed by sweeping advance.

Master of Ordnance can still reduce the scatter by his BS if he has LoS to the target, and he only rolls the additional d6 scatter if an arrow is rolled.

As for the Commissars, you can just get an infantry sergeant to accept the challenge so your Commissar doesn't die right away.

<3 1d4chan

Alright thanks! I will have to keep that in mind.

Just waiting to get out of work and i will build a gunline list up. Mechanized im not so worried about but i will throw that one up as well.

Yeah, a master of ordnance has a 58% chance of having the template touch the point he was aiming at, or to be 1/2" away when he rolls a hit on the scatter die. That's not really that bad, especially given that you can re-roll scatters against vehicles and monstrous creatures. He's somewhere between BS2 and BS3 when used correctly, which isn't THAT bad. Once again, the real problem is that he's stuck with Ap3, not that he's stuck with bad BS.

And no, I wouldn't bother blobbing, and yes, I would bother with weapon upgrades for infantry squads.

As for how to use foot guard, it isn't THAT tricky. Spread guys out against template weapons, point heavy weapons along good fire lanes (and without giving stuff cover saves as much as you can), and do the other obvious things, like make speedbumps against assaulters and castle against deepstrikers. Given that the only thing you can really do with foot guard is to play a gunline, and gunlines are stupid easy to play, there's not much advice that's needed.

Alright here goes a foot list: 2k IG

CCS 115pts
Lascannon
Standard
MoO

CCS 85pts
lascannon
Standard

PCS 50pts
x4 flamers

x4 infantry squads(not blobbed) 320pts
x4 meltas
x4 lascannons


PCS 50pts
x4 flamers

x4Infantry squads 320pts (not blobbed)
x4 lascannons
x4 melta guns

x2 veteran squads 230pts(each squad goes in a vendetta
x6 flamers(3each)
demolitions on both squads

Vendetta 260pts (not in a squad)
Vendetta

Vanquisher 260pts
lascannon
plasma sponsons
pask

Vanquisher 210pts
lascannon
plasma sponsons

Aegis Line/Quad 100pts

List updated 2k exactly

Seems like a solid list, with all the major bases covered, but there are one or two things I would comment on:

1) The Chimera for the CCS seems a little out of place, one AV12 vehicle will be easily singled out and has the potential to give away First Blood easily. The extra mobility doesn't seem to be needed for the infantry-heavy list, and I don't think the bonus to LOS will really make that much of a difference.

2) The PIS with flamers and LC seem a little confused to me. They seem geared towards AT, but the flamers imply either that you intend to advance, wasting the LCs power, or you want them as a deterrent to chargers. Outside of a blob firing four of them on overwatch, a flamer is not going to save a PIS from being slaughtered in CC by any meaningful threat. I would say keep the flamers if you plan to advance with the squads, but drop the LC. With the other platoon, the CCS and the vendettas, I think you probably have anti-tank covered and could afford to drop them. If, on the other hand, you plan to stay still and shoot, drop the flamers or upgrade them to meltas like the other platoon. I think this would be a better use of the points you spent on the chimera.

3) What role to you intend the LRBTs to play in this list? With the amount of AT you have, I would say they are not needed vs tanks, and with the flamer vets and hordes of lasguns, anti-light-infatry is also covered. That leaves anti MEQ/TEQ, but if you plan on using them to kill heavy infantry, Executioners (for AP2) or Punshers/Exterminators (for torrents of fire) would be better choices. Also, I would go out of my way to make full use of the Heavy rule and put sponsons on the tanks. Plasma for the former (although you will probably only get 2 tanks as they are expensive) or HBs for the latter. In general with Lemans, I find it is better to specialise in one thing than try and do everything.

You're bringing a 2,000 point list without taking advantage of 2 FOCs. That automatically puts you at a very serious disadvantage.

And naked LRBTs are a waste of 150 points. You'll get more use out of a pair of plasma cannon armored sentinels than those things...

So as im out doing military stuff i wont be able to update the list right away but i will agree to drop the chimera, only reason i put it in was to basically not grant slay the warlord easily. And behind a wall with 4 up cover its got some survivability. We do have hell drakes in the meta so they occasionally will come right on and smoke the hq.

The idea with the flamers with lascannons is to also add more anti horde. Because as 1 squad gets assaulted and swept away there will then be a flamer and a rapid firing lasguns to do wounds as with dark eldar the majority of my guardsmen will be wasted as the lascannons will be used to kill transports. But i see your point and i will probably drop the chimera and upgrade the flamers to melta.

Now with the russes i was going for the cheap av14 with a large blast so i can pop transports and force my opponent to spread out and hug cover. But what suggestions would you recommend with the russes and for sposonsons for them. Should i stick with my vanqs with lascannon and plasma sponsons? My russes usually die i. Assault or get easily destroyed due to lance weapons so i mean it seems pointless to sink points into them, unless i can be convinced otherwise.

@ailaros i only see double FOC im a foot guard list if i spammed multiple platoons but otherwise its not needed and if i add more armor it takes more away from the gunline theme but i would have to reduce the amount of infantry squads to do so. I see double foc viable for mech but i dont see it for gunline much. What ideas would you have for it?

6 manticores? I normally dislike them, but in those quantities, why not? Moreover, 6 deathstrikes. You're basically guaranteed to get a couple of shots off right away, and then a couple more the next turn. Add camo netting and an ADL for instant hilarity.

You could also run russes independently, rather than in squads, to help prevent overkill. Really, any support unit could benefit from this.

Plus, if you really want orders, you can take 4 CCSs. With 4 masters of ordnance, you're actually not that unlikely to hit stuff with them.

And yes, stick with your vanquishers with plasma cannons. In an increasingly MC-heavy world, being able to put wounds down early and often is a good thing. Plus, you have volume of fire AND Ap2, which means you're also going to be better against terminators and vehicles.

The suggestion for Las/plas vanquishers is a solid one, other good setups include a Exterminators with HB sponsons, possibly a lascannon, which can put the hurt on light to medium infantry as well as light vehicles, or (slightly more situational) a 3xHB Punisher, possibly with Pask. If you face a lot of MCs, the volume of fire and rerolls to wound should be able to force enough saves to weaken/kill most MCs, and if they are still standing, you have plenty of lascannons and meltas to finish them off. Other Russ variants may be more useful depending on your local meta, but you should be able to specialise easily should you need anti-infatry (Punisher/Exterminator) or AT/ MC (Vanquisher/Executioner). And definitely run them sepertely, not in squads.

The idea of using flamers in the way you suggested is certainly doable, but personally I would go for meltas on the PIS and run a 4xflamer PCS. Most of my lists include at least 3 of these squads, and the idea is to manouvre them behind the area you are likely to be charged, lose the assaulted squad, and unleash flaming death. This is the same principle as your PIS with flamers, but more concentrated, as it is unlikely you would be able to bring 3-4 flamers into range with seperate squads. That way, the PIS can focus on AT with lascannon and melta , while 4 flamer templates should kill/significantly weaken most charging units, especially if they roll poorly for consolidation after combat. You can always divert other units to finish them off if needed.

Personally I've never seen the advantage of the vanquisher. It's an anti-tank russ when the guard already has anit-tank options out the wazoo. Plus a russ can't take advantage of bring it down. Where you have an 150 point russ you could grab, a CCS and a heavy weapons team decked out with lascannons. With bring it down, you reroll all of your failed to hits, sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

In my opinion the best use of russes is taking out MEQ or TEQ with a demolisher/executioner.

Pretty much I find it hard to justify taking an anti tank/MC weapon that won't benefit from one of the Imperial Guard's most useful weapon: orders.

The advantage of the Vanquisher in my opinion is that it is more effective against AV13/14 than LCs, as well as against MCs. With LC and PC, they can also do anti MEQ/TEQ as well, whereas the executioner struggles at anti-tank and the demolisher has too short a range. As I mentioned, I think it's best to specialise with russes, and the Vanquisher will do one thing, and do it well, rather than trying to be a jack-of-all-trades. You can then take another russ geared for a more anti-infantry role, such as a HB Punisher/exterminator.

The CCS and HWTs are less good due to the poor Ld of the HWTs meaning orders are hard to use effectively, and the setup coupld potnetially give away 3 KP (2+ Slay The Warlord) and can be killed by small arms. The vanquisher requires dedicated AT fire to kill, only gives one KP, can score in BGNT.

 Paradigm wrote:
The advantage of the Vanquisher in my opinion is that it is more effective against AV13/14 than LCs, as well as against MCs.

The improvement is marginal for a vanquisher's chances to pen a vehicle over a HWT (9.62% vs. 8.25%), that's without commands as well. Note that you also have points left over with the HWT. I do agree that HWT's are squishier, but throwing the LC team within your normal infantry squads (in the back you basically have 8 free wounds before they get touched and a nice bump in leadership!)

 Paradigm wrote:
As I mentioned, I think it's best to specialise with russes, and the Vanquisher will do one thing, and do it well, rather than trying to be a jack-of-all-trades. You can then take another russ geared for a more anti-infantry role, such as a HB Punisher/exterminator.

There are certainly advantages to both, but my big fear whenever I spend that many points on a specialized unit is that it'll die and I'll be left high and dry with no anti-tank! Just some thoughts, don't get me wrong, I've run vanquishers before and they do their job well, but mine always have a bad habit of exploding in the first or second turn :-p

A vanquisher won't blow away like a fart on the breeze. A CCS and a HWS is a good way to lose both the warlord and first blood points.

Plus, once you pay for that vanquisher, you can give them two plasma cannons and a lascannon for only 55 more points, without needing to pay the carrier cost again. If we compare a fully kitted vanquisher to a pair of lascannon HWSs, it's comparing, say, a plasma cannon hit and a vanquisher cannon hit to three lascannon hits. The HWS does a bit more damage, but the vanquisher will get to fire after turn 1.

A fully kitted vanquisher can be destroyed by one well placed shot, a lascannon in an IS squad cannot. On top of that, you're compairing a fully kitted vanquisher, over 200 points, to a heavy weapon squad, around 100 points.

For the same cost you basically have two choices, you can distribute the las cannons between 3 separate IS's, giving them ld 8 and 8 wounds of extra cannon fodder, or 2 separate heavy weapon squads, giving you 6 las cannon shots that can fire at two different targets.

Or you can have a tank that can die to the hands of a single shot from an anti-armor vehicle. Again, I'm hesitant to put over 200 points in a model that can only have one target a turn and can be killed with a single lucky shot.

Okay first thing your comparison is somewhat of a mess. "Comparing" HWT in IS as if they cost 20 pts rather than 70 pts per lascannon is just ridiculous. It is like me comparing a LR vanquisher with pask but as if it cost 155 pts rather than 205 pts.

If you think lascannon HWS are as good as a vanquisher leman russ then I would like to point out that HWS cannot survive any enemy attention at all even with good cover saves. They also fail orders 50% of the time on average.

A vanquisher should always have a lascannon hull weapon. It should also usually have sponson weapons.

IS with HWT are 70 pts a piece and are not a realistic way to deal with AV14. They are excellent for dealing with MC, AV13-, and are even good against paladins/wraiths. The vanquisher is the long range replacement for a melta team not for lascannons in your IS.

eclipseoto wrote:A fully kitted vanquisher can be destroyed by one well placed shot, a lascannon in an IS squad cannot. On top of that, you're compairing a fully kitted vanquisher, over 200 points, to a heavy weapon squad, around 100 points.

Firstly, yes, a vanquisher can be destroyed by a single shot, but that's pretty unlikely. Meanwhile, a single bout of scatter laser fire can ID a HWS off the table. That IS pretty likely. Furthermore, anything that's going to be actually good against a vanquisher (like 10 combi-melta sternguard) are going to be good against HWSs as well, while there is a lot that's good against HWSs that can't even scratch the paint on a vanquisher.

Secondly, I was comparing a 210 point vanquisher to two HWSs, which cost 210 points.

eclipseoto wrote:For the same cost you basically have two choices, you can distribute the las cannons between 3 separate IS's

so, let's compare. 210 points for the vanquisher, and 210 points for 3 PISs with lascannons.

In this case, you certainly get better durability than the HWSs, but you also get one fewer shot at range per turn. You also run into force concentration issues, as it's going to be easier for your opponent to get cover saves (or be out of LOS from one of them altogether), for example, and it's also easier to assault a more spread-out mass of infantry. Also, while a vanquisher can go down to dedicated anti-tank, 30 guardsmen are also vulnerable to dedicated anti-infantry. I've seen 30 guardsmen get shot off the table in a single turn on more than one occasion. And then, as mentioned, you have to deal with leadership issues, unlike a vanquisher, which is fearless.

PISs with lascannons aren't bad (I've run a fair number of them for that exact reason), but they're not straight better than a fully kitted vanquisher either.