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 Grimtuff wrote:
See, I'm wondering this. Say the person is on Facebook. Why on earth have they even added the person who picks on them as a friend? I'm not 100% following the train of thought that would lead someone to add (or even if you fell out with them block and/or unfriend them) them to their friend list.

The problem isn't the victim friending the bully on Facebook. It's more that the bully is friended with many other people at the same school as the victim (who may be friended with the victim and are passing it on). When I was kid, if someone wanted to spread a vicious lie about someone else, they had to actually put some time and legwork into it. Today, you just tweet it and everybody in school knows about it in seconds.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
See, I'm wondering this. Say the person is on Facebook. Why on earth have they even added the person who picks on them as a friend? I'm not 100% following the train of thought that would lead someone to add (or even if you fell out with them block and/or unfriend them) them to their friend list.

The problem isn't the victim friending the bully on Facebook. It's more that the bully is friended with many other people at the same school as the victim (who may be friended with the victim and are passing it on). When I was kid, if someone wanted to spread a vicious lie about someone else, they had to actually put some time and legwork into it. Today, you just tweet it and everybody in school knows about it in seconds.

Yes, but that's not really what I'm asking. I'm referring to the direct messages (much like what was posted by azazel earlier in the thread). Surely such a thing is not possible if they're not friends with you on such a site. I mean, I know the feeling of the rumour mill (my own personal one was that I was gay. My friends told me not to bother, even though it killed any chance you would have with women. This is why I would not piss on them if they were on fire) and how much it affects people, but it wasn't what I was referring to.

The solution to bullying is to make it plain that it will be punished, not tolerated, by society.

Auxellion wrote:Bullying helps a beta/weaker individual grow and take control of their own lives. It had a wonderful impact on me. Cyber bullying is only a different form of it, but without the physical implications.

Look at GSP/a lot of fighters and boxers - turned them into a positive force. It's a lesson to learn.

This is one of the most magnificent trolling attempts I've seen in a long time. Even the avatar fits the PUA/asperberger's theme.

You, sir, are the Daniel Day-Lewis of trolling on Dakka.

Kilkrazy wrote:The solution to bullying is to make it plain that it will be punished, not tolerated, by society.

This.

Also, I'm a big fan of explaining to kids that prison rules may apply, and that bullies will always be tough with their friends, but have to be alone sometimes. Patience and malice are the greatest tools available to those who are bullied within an apathetic or indifferent system.




To all those who are trying to find fault in my very-quickly-written example, please consider the idea that "I'm going to check up on you, and if you don't add me to your twitter/facebook/whatever I'll break your leg" is not at all unreasonable, assuming it's even necessary given these are all social networks which are in no way segregated from the in-person social network that is a school.

Do not attempt to circumvent the problem like cowards: come up with a solution, and explain how you think your solution will play out in approximately 100 words.

I dare you.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The solution to bullying is to make it plain that it will be punished, not tolerated, by society.

Ah, but too many subscribe to the notion of "boys will be boys" and all that, right?

 Sheokronath wrote:
In my opinion, when it comes to cyber bullying you are only the victim as long as you allow yourself to be, just hit block.

That works on some sites that allow you better security options, but what about sites such as forums, for example? I hope that nobody on dakka has been a victim of cyber bullying by another member (and if you have, I encourage you to contact a mod about it), but the ability to have multiple throw-away accounts purely for use with tormenting someone by circumventing blocks and ignores makes it a lot harder to deal with, especially if the bullies know how to evade ISP-bans. Facebook gives you the ability to police who can see and/or contact you, but a lot of other places on the internet that are also social do not have this ability.

At this point, I feel I must mention that it is NOT the fault of the websites, because it's easy to see how my comments could be misunderstood and/or taken out of context. I personally feel that PMs on websites should be restricted to only people you have on your friends list (not those who have you on theirs), but that's about as far as websites can go without shutting down to avoid hijacking threads with abuse etc. Unfortunately, there will always be ways for bullies to attack their victims, and shutting down websites is akin to cutting off a head of the hydra; without the ability to use that one place, the bullies will try and find others to use instead. Hell, if people are supportive of banning websites that 'allow' (used in the loosest way possible, since it's not so much 'allowing' it to happen as simply being unable to stop it happening) bullying, why aren't they campaigning to ban speech? I got names hurled at me on a daily basis in school - why are the bullies not having their mouths sewn shut? Perhaps ban the use of limbs, since they can be used to send physical signals of hate. But anyway, I think I'm getting off the topic here.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that 'just hit block' is far from as simple as it sounds. No bully will be deterred just by being unable to message someone on facebook, hell, it might even make them more determined, since they're obviously having an impact. Implying that the victim is in any way responsible for the fact that they are bullied is utter bs, born of misinformed opinions; it not only belittles the victim's plight, but it also justifies the bully's actions; it's like saying rape victims were asking for it by wearing certain clothes; it's attempting to justify the unjustifiable purely because you are unwilling to believe that the attacker is completely to blame, and such opinions are what build the utterly reprehensible cultures we have to tackle on a daily basis.

By your banal opinion, by living I was allowing myself to be bullied, and thus I could not be a victim; would your suggestion have been that I take my life so that I could not allow myself to be bullied?

 Auxellion wrote:
Bullying helps a beta/weaker individual grow and take control of their own lives. It had a wonderful impact on me. Cyber bullying is only a different form of it, but without the physical implications.

Look at GSP/a lot of fighters and boxers - turned them into a positive force. It's a lesson to learn.

How much do you guys wanna bet that Auxelion's avatar isn't actually him?

~Tim?

Just saying people, that post could actually be legit. As in some people actually do get stronger from adversity instead of buckling. I count myself one of those people.

He might just be too young to realize that putting your standards on someone else can be insensitive.

 Necroshea wrote:
Just saying people, that post could actually be legit. As in some people actually do get stronger from adversity instead of buckling.

Some people, yes. But it'll depend on the intensity of the bullying. I didn't experience bullying per se, just general dickish behaviour every day at school, and I'm probably stronger mentally for it than if I'd have been schooled at home or something like that. But bullies sometimes pick on one person mercilessly and it can be too much.

 Wolfstan wrote:
Recently there has been a spate of suicides by teenage kids due to Cyber bullying and a ground swell of anger at such sites as Ask.FM for allowing this thing to happen. Although terrible I wonder if these deaths are highlighting a bigger issue. Over the years I have seen the next generation demand more freedoms at a younger age. How many of use have thought "they grow up quick now"? There also seems to be more of a tendency to treat kids like adults at a younger age, however has Cyber bullying exposed the falsehood of this thinking?

Although kids like to think they are more grown up nowadays, are they really? Does Cyber bullying blow this way of thinking out of the water? As an adult, I might feel angry at a trolling or abuse over the internet, but I'd never feel the need to kill myself over it. I'd just either ignore, bite back or walk away. To me it seems to prove that although kids like to think they "grown up" , from a psychological perspective they aren't. You could compare it to underage sex, although hormones are kicking in from 12 onwards, psychologically they aren't ready. Which is why we have laws on it. Do we as a society need to reappraise the freedoms & responsibilities we allow our kids to have?

It all went down hill when we decided 8 year olds didn't have to work in the coal mines.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The solution to bullying is to make it plain that it will be punished, not tolerated, by society.

Ah, but too many subscribe to the notion of "boys will be boys" and all that, right?

It also must be made plain to those people that their attitudes are intolerable.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The solution to bullying is to make it plain that it will be punished, not tolerated, by society.

Ah, but too many subscribe to the notion of "boys will be boys" and all that, right?

It also must be made plain to those people that their attitudes are intolerable.

If it's not permitted in face-to-face confrontations, why is it allowed to happen on the internet?
It's written down, and not just one person's word against another's.
Cyberbullying should not happen, as it is so easy to police. If only the rules were enforced, as with most things like this.

 Skinnereal wrote:
Cyberbullying should not happen, as it is so easy to police. If only the rules were enforced, as with most things like this.

Uh, what?

Every year brings a new generation of littles arses just ready to be stupid on the Internet. There will always people mean people, and there's no realistic way to stop that. The focus should be on teaching people to cope instead of just wasting resources fighting an inexhaustible supply of dbags.

 Necroshea wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
Cyberbullying should not happen, as it is so easy to police. If only the rules were enforced, as with most things like this.

Uh, what?

Every year brings a new generation of littles arses just ready to be stupid on the Internet. There will always people mean people, and there's no realistic way to stop that. The focus should be on teaching people to cope instead of just wasting resources fighting an inexhaustible supply of dbags.

Each of these sites have rules, and users are supposed to follow them.
If schools have zero-tolerence policies, and they don't do this kind of thing on the streets, they think the internet is fair game.
If the sites used for this are lax in their enfocement of the rules, they often end in suicide.

If the kind of thing mentioned here happened in the street, the police would class it as verbal abuse, and there are laws and penalties for doing it.
Until these little arses are banned and barred from these sites, it's going to keep happening. Each new batch will do the same things, and it's just the same as in real life.
If they get away with it, they'll keep doing it.
If the rules are enforced, persitent dbags will keep signing up to do it again, but once word gets around that the ban-hammer has been swung, have-a-go morons will be disuaded from trying it.

"Grow a pair" is all well and good, but if there's no-comeback on repeat offenders, what good are these sites.

Dakkadakka manages it (mostly), so what is going on here that doesn't happen elsewhere?

fishy bob wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:

fishy bob wrote:

 curran12 wrote:

 Auxellion wrote:
Bullying helps a beta/weaker individual grow and take control of their own lives. It had a wonderful impact on me. Cyber bullying is only a different form of it, but without the physical implications.
Look at GSP/a lot of fighters and boxers - turned them into a positive force. It's a lesson to learn.

Wow. This is perhaps the douche-est thing I have ever read on Dakka, and that is saying something. Bravo, sir.

Going by his avatar (also the douchiest on Dakka) it's the kind of attitude you'd expect. "No pain no gain, brah!"

Am I a bad person for wanting to cyber bully the feth out of him/her now? I guess that's a bit much for someone who left a gakky comment.

No, he said he approves of cyber bullying, so go right ahead.

Agreed that one who feels a need to "bully" is a mentally weak individual (they do not see other means of gaining control) but it is at the expense of others.
The problem with this is they "train" people to be victims, their dog to kick, it takes a strong will to fight that, not easily done for children.

Discipline and development of skills in a positive manner makes for healthy people, I agree we have a responsibility with our children to show them other ways of doing things online or physically.

I was raised by a narcissist, you have two choices dealing with that kind of tyranny in all things: succumb or fight them every inch of the way.
I have taught myself and my kids to deal with these bullies by making them our hobby until they back off.
I have also taught us to reward "wanted" behavior.
Give as you get, I just have to watch my overzealous response to bullies or I in turn will be the oppressor.

Dakkadakka manages it (mostly), so what is going on here that doesn't happen elsewhere?

Perhaps that we aren't actually a social network site, or a site where people can be easily identified?

I don't doubt that it happens on sites that aren't social networking ones, or sites where someone has displayed their true self, but we haven't experienced cyber bullying (that we know about; once again, if anyone IS being bullied by another user on this site, please don't suffer in silence) because we don't make it clear who we are.

If someone who was being cyber bullied elsewhere was revealed to have an account here, then bullies may very well come here to torment them, but Dakka is nowhere near the first port of call for such miscreants, and as such avoids most of the trouble by combining that fact with us being a closer community than most.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The solution to bullying is to make it plain that it will be punished, not tolerated, by society.

Agreed.
I have an ADHD kid, for a while he hit a kid every day.
We tried everything but he "laughed" them all off.
He actually told me he hit a particular kid because he knew he would not hit back.
I promised him if he hit anyone from that point on he would be spanked.
If he lied about it he would get one more.
He did it once.
He was punished (not out of anger, told him what would happen and took my time).
He never did it again.
Would you believe he is actually happier?
He said he did not know how to stop until then. Weird.
He actually has friends now and gets invited to parties.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
See, I'm wondering this. Say the person is on Facebook. Why on earth have they even added the person who picks on them as a friend? I'm not 100% following the train of thought that would lead someone to add (or even if you fell out with them block and/or unfriend them) them to their friend list.

The problem isn't the victim friending the bully on Facebook. It's more that the bully is friended with many other people at the same school as the victim (who may be friended with the victim and are passing it on). When I was kid, if someone wanted to spread a vicious lie about someone else, they had to actually put some time and legwork into it. Today, you just tweet it and everybody in school knows about it in seconds.

But if you beat them senseless outside of school for their rumor, then they can facebook pics of whats left of their face. Everyone wins.

When in doubt brick the problem right out.*


*Frazzled is in no way condoning the use of bricks to solve all your problems. That would be wrong.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

 Auxellion wrote:
Bullying helps a beta/weaker individual grow and take control of their own lives. It had a wonderful impact on me. Cyber bullying is only a different form of it, but without the physical implications.

Look at GSP/a lot of fighters and boxers - turned them into a positive force. It's a lesson to learn.

How much do you guys wanna bet that Auxelion's avatar isn't actually him?

~Tim?

Here is a link to my bodyspace Tim - http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/Auxe/

Do you want to PM each other on Linkedin as well?

I have a fairly brutal view on this subject through going through middle/high school - Cyber bullying is something else entirely - I was never damaged by online harassment, but others throughout my high school did. They aren't comparable as much as this thread seems to make them. Online harassment puts up the “Invincible/Anonymous/Emotionless” wall – while these confrontations in person are less then what they are online. I posted off an iPod while on lunch previously – I apologize for my quick post.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Ah, but too many subscribe to the notion of "boys will be boys" and all that, right?

I do - but to a smaller extent. It was a normal thing for me to get into a handful of fights in high school. Teasing/verbal abuse (To others and abuse directed back) was a regular thing. There is a bare minimum level of thick skin that should exist when teasing/verbally communicating. As soon as you bridge to an online back and forth - emotion/fear gets stripped and it becomes increasingly more brutal.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The solution to bullying is to make it plain that it will be punished, not tolerated, by society.

Bullying should always be addressed and dealt with. When it is ignored it stacks up and causes damage.

To my previous post - a small amount of actual physical bullying is necessary to understand how it is even after high school IMHO. Cyber bullying is something else entirely.

I agree with a few posters who mention telling an adult/reporting it. Online confrontations have records/you have actual collateral. Verbal teasing in classes/the workplace? Not as much. You can respond to the physical threats easier then the online assaults. If I knew what I know now - I would have told friends to record/show hateful messages to their parents in middle school other students would bombard them with.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
See, I'm wondering this. Say the person is on Facebook. Why on earth have they even added the person who picks on them as a friend? I'm not 100% following the train of thought that would lead someone to add (or even if you fell out with them block and/or unfriend them) them to their friend list.

The problem isn't the victim friending the bully on Facebook. It's more that the bully is friended with many other people at the same school as the victim (who may be friended with the victim and are passing it on). When I was kid, if someone wanted to spread a vicious lie about someone else, they had to actually put some time and legwork into it. Today, you just tweet it and everybody in school knows about it in seconds.

Yes, but that's not really what I'm asking. I'm referring to the direct messages (much like what was posted by azazel earlier in the thread). Surely such a thing is not possible if they're not friends with you on such a site. I mean, I know the feeling of the rumour mill (my own personal one was that I was gay. My friends told me not to bother, even though it killed any chance you would have with women. This is why I would not piss on them if they were on fire) and how much it affects people, but it wasn't what I was referring to.

Agreed. I do not have a FB/twitter/online profile for anything besides hobby related forums. If you don't have one, you can't really be damaged by it. I have numerous cousins/friends who have kids that have a FB/twitter/instagram at the age of 12. That is a horrible idea waiting to happen.

To my previous post - a small amount of actual physical bullying is necessary to understand how it is even after high school IMHO

And in my honest opinion, that is absolute bs, and is exactly the sort of misinformed opinion that needs to be eradicated.

 Avatar 720 wrote:

To my previous post - a small amount of actual physical bullying is necessary to understand how it is even after high school IMHO

And in my honest opinion, that is absolute bs, and is exactly the sort of misinformed opinion that needs to be eradicated.

Indeed. Does this proffer that there will be physicall bullying after high school? Mr. Smith and Wesson and 13 of his posse insure that that is not the case.

 Avatar 720 wrote:

To my previous post - a small amount of actual physical bullying is necessary to understand how it is even after high school IMHO

And in my honest opinion, that is absolute bs, and is exactly the sort of misinformed opinion that needs to be eradicated.

Yeah, in Canada people don't usually beat each other up to resolve things or to improve their status so I don't see how physical bullying will teach me important life lessons.

 Avatar 720 wrote:

To my previous post - a small amount of actual physical bullying is necessary to understand how it is even after high school IMHO

And in my honest opinion, that is absolute bs, and is exactly the sort of misinformed opinion that needs to be eradicated.

You need a trigger to generate confidence.

You can join a sports team, learn judo/sign up for classes, or compete in something that tests your physical and mental strength. It doesn't necessarily have to be “Fighting the Bully” - but confidence has to build from somewhere. Lifting weights/competing in sports (Cycling ironically) built up my own shield where verbal harassment doesn’t affect me. I wish it was another way, but this is how I see it ending. “Fighting” the bully is the clear cut way I’ve seen this work.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:

To my previous post - a small amount of actual physical bullying is necessary to understand how it is even after high school IMHO

And in my honest opinion, that is absolute bs, and is exactly the sort of misinformed opinion that needs to be eradicated.

Indeed. Does this proffer that there will be physicall bullying after high school? Mr. Smith and Wesson and 13 of his posse insure that that is not the case.

Not physical - I can talk about verbal harassment in the professional setting of an office (Interns vs. VPs/Bigs) – it exists after schooling still. It’s something that we need to rid honestly, but I have no idea how to go about doing this.

OK that I can agree with

 Cheesecat wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:

To my previous post - a small amount of actual physical bullying is necessary to understand how it is even after high school IMHO

And in my honest opinion, that is absolute bs, and is exactly the sort of misinformed opinion that needs to be eradicated.

Yeah, in Canada people don't usually beat each other up to resolve things or to improve their status so I don't see how physical bullying will teach me important life lessons.

This may be a poorly created American mindset honestly. In GER/AUS? May be different. Just browse through some teen shows on TV and look at what seems to be the "Norm"



Then again I'm from NJ with the most "douche" avatar I can produce trying to validate the losing side here

A 'small amount of physical bullying' isn't what's going on here.
The kind of bullying that results in suicide is a targeted and continuous harassment of children and young people that goes on for years. The worst part is the victim cannot get away from it. They have to keep going back to school every single day. In many cases teachers are unable or even unwilling to act.
There's a difference between getting into fights, being teased and 'boys will be boys' and the kind of abuse that drives a person to suicide. Cyber bullying is even more insidious in that it removes any kind of safe haven the victim thought they had previously.

Saying bullying makes the weak strong is a stupid thing to say. It might do it to some people but not everyone is the same. More to the point, is it worth having someone kill themselves and their family be destroyed by their death just so a handful of other people can be strong?

School should be a safe learning environment for anyone.

 Auxellion wrote:
You need a trigger to generate confidence.
<snip>
You can join a sports team, learn judo/sign up for classes, or compete in something that tests your physical and mental strength. It doesn't necessarily have to be “Fighting the Bully” - but confidence has to build from somewhere.

To slouch and look down and away are great triggers as a "victim" for them to pick up on.
Judo was good but Kendo is ideal: Look them in the eye, yell real loud (Kia) and whack them with a stick, following up with a hard two handed push, no blocks, just attack.
You only have to do that once (minus the stick) and no-one would mess with you again.
There is something to be said on confidence as a great deterrent.

Not physical - I can talk about verbal harassment in the professional setting of an office (Interns vs. VPs/Bigs) – it exists after schooling still. It’s something that we need to rid honestly, but I have no idea how to go about doing this.

That "fighting spirit" allows me to look at VP's in the eye and question motives on things (and get away with it).
I have seen many bully adults.
Physical presence and being reasonably smart about things tends to make them look elsewhere for "prey".
It seems in this society your degree of "threat" is evened out between "brainy" or "physically intimidating" if you have neither, it will not go well for you.

I guess I could agree from this viewpoint on deterrent, I just would not like others of a more genteel nature to have it ripped from them.

Back in my day if wsomeone was bugging us, we just channeled a herd of mastadon into their village. Problem...solution!

Bullying does not generate confidence, it actively serves to undermine it. Once the target of a bully you become so worked up about things such as why you were targeted and what they want from you that you start to believe that it's in fact your fault that you're being bullied; something about you has offended these people - your very existence has offended these people.

You no longer feel confident that the day ahead is going to be fine, because you know it's not; you know you're going to come in day after day, get bullied for existing, and leave. You worry about the bullying instead of worrying about learning; each minute that passes without it is another minute that you're left to stew. There is no confidence being built, here, only guilt and self-loathing.

Stop trying to justify bullying with your pathetic bs excuses.

Well you could pull a Carrie on your bullies. I'd imagine that would be quite a confidence builder.