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 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

I just cited the Queen of Thorns as a strong female character, driven by purpose, not ruled by her emotions, understanding the Game. She is on a par with the Spider, Tywin, Tyrion and 'Lord T**tbeard', strong characters who play the Game and understand it.

I was being flippant. It did not, and does not, appear to me that you have an opinion on the strength of a character, in this particular setting, that is worthy of respect.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

At no time did I say Ned Stark was a strong character, he wasn't, he was a loyal watchdog and none too bright. He was martially strong, morally strong (which made him weak) and not capable of dealing with the sort of shenanigans that the Game requires. He should have stayed in the North.

No, you did not take a stance regarding Ned Stark. The point I was attempting to make is that, generally, when people claim a production does not feature strong, female characters they are simultaneously claiming that the male characters are the epitome of strength. Ned Stark breaks that mold, as do Robb Stark and Theon Greyjoy.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

I'll give you that one, but then we have her trusting Lord T**tbeard, fawning over Gay Rose Knight and other daft stuff. And she got a wolf killed, which is a black mark against her with me till kingdom come.

The incident regarding the wolf and her fawning over Ser Loras occurred prior to her father's execution and Ned explains, explicitly, why Sansa had to behave as she did in the former case.

After her father's execution she grew up very quickly, thanks to necessity and the influence of several other characters.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

She was 'of sterner stuff' til she suddenly did that. It felt like a clumsy plot device to have her suddenly leap to the conclusion that she should let the father of her husband's murderer go free.

Really? She obviously hated doing it, but it was necessary as she could not protect him. That woman has sacked up more than virtually anyone else in the series, her only weakness has been her respect for the people she loves (Ned, and Robb, specifically).

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Jaime, drinking, obstinately hating Tyrion, obstinately fawning over her monster son, desperately seeking daddy's approval, more drinking... Cersei is a train wreck.

After Robert died her monster son was her only real claim to power. The drinking occurred after the realization that her son was a monster, that her father was a sociopath, and that the only sympathetic ear she might have is someone she treated like gak since childhood.

She is a trainwreck, but she is as much because everything she ever knew was taken away from her. And yet, she hasn't killed herself. That takes strength.

LoneLictor wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
MeanGreenStompa, you seem to have a very specific definition of "strong" which wasn't really implied when you just said "strong female character".

Survival instinct, force of will, understanding who to back and who to oppose, not setting your son's mortal enemy and hostage free because you feel sorry for his dad, the same dad who's destroying your forces...

Yep.

Time and time again, it's said in the series, the strong are those who play the Game well, the strong are the survivors.

Nobody fits all that criteria in Game of Thrones.

Really, I think this is the wrong series for you.

I really enjoy the series, overall, and had made an observation based on a quiet niggle. Thank you for the suggestion, but I will continue to enjoy the series. Also, those that do fulfill that criteria for me:









and the aforementioned Queen of Thorns.

dogma wrote:
I was being flippant. It did not, and does not, appear to me that you have an opinion on the strength of a character, in this particular setting, that is worthy of respect.

Shortly proceeding your rather lengthy response to my unworthy opinion... Well, if you hold it in such scant regard, move on with life and avoid discussing it further with me, simple!

You see I would have thought that you'd dislike Littlefinger, he's so damn petty and caught up with making everyone else realise that he's a big deal, its really all that drives his day to day existence.

And I knew you'd like Tywin, I think its hard not to like him, despite the fact he can be a bit of a dick.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:The one thing that does bug me mildly about the series:


If Jaime is such an awesome fighter, why the feth is he absolutely useless with only one hand? There are dozens of medieval period manuals on numerous styles of european sword fighting, most of the best fighters would have known how to handle a sword with their wrong hand, especially if their life depended on it...

Yet this guy is completely fething useless without his "sword hand"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6tz_von_Berlichingen
Jaime Lannister is a wuss. Just sayin'.

 motyak wrote:

Pretty much just Tywin?

not even, because he was done in by a dwarf


Honestly, yeah no one fits ALL those aspects, but.. I think that Jon Snow, the Imp, and Arya are probably about the "strongest" characters in the series by most measures.

Spoilers dude...some people haven't read the books. I have, but I dunno if others in this thread have.

 motyak wrote:
Spoilers dude...some people haven't read the books. I have, but I dunno if others in this thread have.

honestly, having read the books prior to the series makes it just that much more enjoyable for me... it also frustrates me, because many of the stylistic aspects they took, things they left out (such as Tyrion making a hill people joke, but unless youve read the books, it'll be completely lost on you)

@MeanGreenStompa

I have spoilers for you regarding the books. Essentially, it proves your stuff wrong.



Littefinger trusts the wrong people. He wants nothing more than to get with Cat. He helps Tywin. Tywin kills Cat.

Varys trusts Joffrey not to kill Ned if Ned confesses.



There are no characters that meet your criteria. You want perfect people. Real life doesn't have perfect people, and Game of Thrones is trying to be realistic character-wise.

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/ustv/s151/game-of-thrones/news/a512391/game-of-thrones-hafthor-julius-bjornsson-cast-as-the-mountain.html

 motyak wrote:
You see I would have thought that you'd dislike Littlefinger, he's so damn petty and caught up with making everyone else realise that he's a big deal, its really all that drives his day to day existence.

And I knew you'd like Tywin, I think its hard not to like him, despite the fact he can be a bit of a dick.

Tywin is a force of nature, I do know what becomes of him I don't believe any of the characters are flawless, just that many of the male characters are portrayed as 'powerful with a flaw' whereas several of the female characters either revolve around their flaw or do as I had originally pointed out with dragongirl, suddenly radically shift to something daft (like the 'I lost all my kids, it feels terrible, I'm going to destroy my remaining son's chances of victory by freeing his blood enemy because I suddenly don't like death' randomness of mama Stark).

I really dislike Littlefinger, I loathe the character (testament to the actor, script writers and to GRRM) but he's very powerful indeed. His conversation with The Spider was basically Law vs Chaos, almost like the two of them are the chess players and everyone else is their game.

You say he's petty? Not to me, to me he just sees above and beyond the Game to it's ultimate persuit, self interest, and is determinted to both fulfill every and any whim he has and cause chaos and anarchy just because he can.

This is as powerful as the Vorlons and the Shadows debating the fate of the younger races or the gods of Olympus moving their clay people about or crumbling them in their hands.

This is why Littlefinger is a strong character, a monster. Chaos is a ladder.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:


Survival instinct, force of will, understanding who to back and who to oppose, not setting your son's mortal enemy and hostage free because you feel sorry for his dad, the same dad who's destroying your forces...

Yep.

Time and time again, it's said in the series, the strong are those who play the Game well, the strong are the survivors.

So, really, none of this has anything to do with Martin being unable to write strong female characters, and a lot more to do with the fact that there is, currently, no female Machiavellian character.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:


So, really, none of this has anything to do with Martin being unable to write strong female characters, and a lot more to do with the fact that there is, currently, no female Machiavellian character.

Nope, I said 'strong characters properly', because he can't seem to resist, when creating a strong female character, suddenly throwing a weak female trope to hamstring the character into stupidity.

Dragongirl suddenly, in the middle of being a tidal force of nature, outwitting half the far side of the world and making the other half love her as divine, suddenly goes cow-eyes at a swaggering merc.

Wolfmother suddenly says 'all my other kids are dead, so I'm going to cripple my son's chances of conquering the kingdom, destabilize his army and lead to his downfall by letting his (and my) mortal enemy go because 'everyone is somebody's child, right?'.

Brotherf**ker goes from scheming Lady Macbeth to terrified drunk trying not to get herself killed by her incest spawned offspring.

HardcoreAmazon lurches from implacable killing machine and more noble knight than any knight with a willy, to quietly sad girl who just wants to be loved and really likes Jamie but can't really express it so just stands there staring downwards and kicking at the dust.

It's not that he doesn't have strong female characters, its that he seems to insert some fairly predictable tropes with some and some boggling wtf moments with others, it seems wedged in at times as plot device and paints the character in a poorer light once it happens.

I think you have Starks motivation for releasing the Kingslayer slightly wrong...

And you seem to blame her for the eventual death of the rebellion way more than you blame Robb.

The reason Lady Stark released the Kingslayer:

Two of her sons have been killed (due in large part to Robb's refusal to listen to her advice and letting Theon go back to the Iron Islands) and she is counting on Tyrion's promise to release their hostages (her two daughters) in exchange for Jamie. The only real consequence to the rebellion has been that Robb lost the support of the Karstarks, a single bannerman.

The many reasons why Robb lost the rebellion:

1) Edmund Tully (Lady Stark's brother, acting against her advice) violated Robb's direct orders and attacked the Lannisters, ruining the trap that Robb was setting for Lord Tywin.
2) Robb send Theon to the Iron Islands, a move that his mother strongly cautioned him against, resulting in Winterfell burning to the ground and the heads of his younger brothers on spikes. Which causes a chain reaction of actions by many other people.
3) Robb violates his Oath to Lord Frey, against the actions of his mother who won Lord Frey's allegiance to the North, resulting in the Red Wedding.
4) The Red Wedding kills the last of the male Starks (as far as they know) and results in the capture of many highborn hostages that were royal to the Starks, and who are now forced to swear fealty to the Lannisters in exchange for their safety.

Blaming Lady Stark for the result of the rebellion is pretty silly, but the books make that a lot clearer than the show I think.

Gotta agree about dany and Daario (yesh that sounds like bad teen fiction), badass dragon queen goes bibbidty about some merc...maybe she will just use him and lose him (I know that's not how it is in the books, but this time I wiould be happy for the change), besides how could you really trust a guy that offed his last two commanders because he "didn't want to do something", use him..lose him..and feed him to the dragons as practice.

Dany's scene with the unsullied army and the dropping of the whip of command was awesome..I hate seeing her getting all doe-eyed now..keep kicking slaver butt .

MeanGreenStompa, what you're demanding are infallible characters. Quite frankly, there aren't any.

You say that Brienne and Daenarys aren't strong because they fawn over Jaime/Daario. Yet you say Littlefinger is strong, despite the fact that he fawns over Cat. You say that Cat is weak for letting Jaime go. Yet you say Walder Frey is strong, despite the fact that over a whim he kills Cat instead of using her as a hostage.

If anyone here is biased against women, its not GRRM.

 LoneLictor wrote:
Yet you say Littlefinger is strong, despite the fact that he fawns over Cat.

but he plays the game extremely well.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:


So, really, none of this has anything to do with Martin being unable to write strong female characters, and a lot more to do with the fact that there is, currently, no female Machiavellian character.

Nope, I said 'strong characters properly', because he can't seem to resist, when creating a strong female character, suddenly throwing a weak female trope to hamstring the character into stupidity.

Dragongirl suddenly, in the middle of being a tidal force of nature, outwitting half the far side of the world and making the other half love her as divine, suddenly goes cow-eyes at a swaggering merc.

Exactly the same thing happened to Robb, teenagers acting stupid because of the other sex is hardly gender specific, both in our world our in Martin's.

Wolfmother suddenly says 'all my other kids are dead, so I'm going to cripple my son's chances of conquering the kingdom, destabilize his army and lead to his downfall by letting his (and my) mortal enemy go because 'everyone is somebody's child, right?'.

My opinion on Lady Catelyn is not a popular one, but I've always thought that she was even more mentally unstable then her sister, just in a much more lucid way. She has a good grasp of family politics, is fairly intelligent, her point of view chapters show that her thoughts are a bit cold but otherwise normal, but somehow she always end up acting in the worse, pettiest ways. In a sense, she is a slightly milder Cersei.

Brotherf**ker goes from scheming Lady Macbeth to terrified drunk trying not to get herself killed by her incest spawned offspring.

I don't see that she was ever portrayed as a great schemer. Robert's assassination was sloppy to the point that it got called that even before the king was dead.

HardcoreAmazon lurches from implacable killing machine and more noble knight than any knight with a willy, to quietly sad girl who just wants to be loved and really likes Jamie but can't really express it so just stands there staring downwards and kicking at the dust.

We've apparently been reading two different editions of the same book. Brienne hardly mentions Jaimee in her point of view chapters after they leave. Which is what's revealing about her confused state of mind, because you'd expect her to be as caustic about him as she was prior to their stop at Harrenhal.

It's not that he doesn't have strong female characters, its that he seems to insert some fairly predictable tropes with some and some boggling wtf moments with others, it seems wedged in at times as plot device and paints the character in a poorer light once it happens.

In light of what I've said higher in this thread, I'd suggest that it probably comes down to a matter of expectations and perceptions. There are poor twists in this serie, and I tend to think that Robb's marriage and Dany's crush on Daario are some of the poorest. Lady Catelyn freeing Jaimee was a weird move, but Lady Catelyn always struck me as weird too. And something needed to happen to advance Jaimee's storyline, plus it opened a nice angle on the Brienne vs Jaimee moral conflict thingy. Cersei... well, Cersei is THE hateful character of the serie. Everything she does is either wrong or right for the wrong reasons. Up until Bolton and the Freys, she was pretty much the only one in that position.

Also, Asha is awesome, the Merryweather wife is pretty shrewed, and the Vyper's Daughters are an assassin's guild wet dream. Strong characters.

I heard a rumor that Daenerys was going to be nude again with several local extras in Croatia being cast to be nude along with her.

A lot of people in the comments thought that was the handmaid scene but that doesn't fit there being more than one woman and as somebody there pointed out they wouldn't hire extras for that.

I personally think its only them and not Dany who gets naked and the scene is in fact when she takes Mereen and its naked populace is herded together for her to pass judgement on them. Many had their clothing burned off or had been stripped of it by the freed slaves.This is when Dany orders the 86 slavers crucified and seeing this brutal side of war is a nig reason why she stays in Mereen. So its an important scene that I think they will add.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
I heard a rumor that Daenerys was going to be nude again with several local extras in Croatia being cast to be nude along with her.

A lot of people in the comments thought that was the handmaid scene but that doesn't fit there being more than one woman and as somebody there pointed out they wouldn't hire extras for that.

I personally think its only them and not Dany who gets naked and the scene is in fact when she takes Mereen and its naked populace is herded together for her to pass judgement on them. Many had their clothing burned off or had been stripped of it by the freed slaves.This is when Dany orders the 86 slavers crucified and seeing this brutal side of war is a nig reason why she stays in Mereen. So its an important scene that I think they will add.

Considering they showed what the Freys did to Rob & Greywind's bodies after they'd been murdered, I don't think there's much of anything brutal & sadistic that Dan & Dave will avoid filming!

The realise question will be; do they show the hundreds or crucified slaves, (most of which were little kids), that lined the way to Mereen?

I imagine they would show that in order to make audience understand why Dany have evil slavers killed. Maybe she'll look up at something the audience can't see and all we see are feet with bloody entrails dangling out.

Plus we have had dead kids on the show already. Bit of fake blood and it'd be fine.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Nope, I said 'strong characters properly', because he can't seem to resist, when creating a strong female character, suddenly throwing a weak female trope to hamstring the character into stupidity.

No, this is what you said:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

This character turned the conqueror of the world into a simpering fangirl and if this is also how it's handled in the books, lends credence to the notion that GRRM can't write strong women properly.

At any rate, it isn't as if strong, female characters are the only strong characters that find their ambitions impeded by their baser emotions.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

It's not that he doesn't have strong female characters, its that he seems to insert some fairly predictable tropes with some and some boggling wtf moments with others, it seems wedged in at times as plot device and paints the character in a poorer light once it happens.

That is what some call "the point".