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I'm really ok with where assaults are at. Assaults really should be something you use to clear a position after softening it up for the vast majority of armies. Armies reliant on CC as their overwhelmingly primary engagement method should be relatively few, we have a whole other game system where CC is the primary battle method and shooting the support. We've been gradually getting over the 3E/4E CC crush. That said, the assaults do work rather well in 6E, however the units that take best advantage of it have changed. Instead of the large mobs or mechanized assaults of 5E, it's the units with inherent speed that really shine in 6E, jump infantry, beasts, and bikes. These units are able to get stuck in faster than ever (especially Jetbikes...against just about any point on the board). The "drive up and pile out of a rhino" days are over, for good or ill, but units like Wraiths, Scarabs, and Assault Marines have never been more effective.

Biomancy and Swarmlord say




COME @ ME BRO

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Not when the threat is on a T6 2+ monstrous creature that will likely just punch you back and have most of your attacks bounce off the armour save. it shouldn't be easy for a shooting army to just point/click away units at a time without having to move either, and yet it is.

I dunno, I am thinking of giving up on this thread. It's just a bunch of people sticking their fingers in their ears and saying "Nuh-uh. It'll be fixed when the codex comes out." They have far more faith in GW than I do, since 5th favoured shooting, and the assaulting armies objectively did not perform. Yeah, Mephiston may have beat your face in once or twice, but he didn't win any tournaments, those were reserved for Razorbacks. And 6th is objectively worse for assaulting in every possible way.

Assaulting is still more risky than shooting. It's still easier to whiff your assault unit's attacks and get wiped. In 5th I lost a whole unit of Nob bikers to a single tau unit because 3 power klaws failed to do a single wound, I lost one wound and failed my morale and reroll and was swept, that doesn't happen with shooting, the worst that happens with shooting is you whiff your shots and choose another available unit to shoot.

Close Combat was nerfed to give it an all or nothing check before you even do any damage. Imagine if every shooting unit had a 1 in 3 chance (still better odds than a 7 inch charge being successful) of not shooting when trying to, given fluff of the unit wasn't looking out in the direction, or a smokey battlefield made it impossible for them to see their target or some other BS reason. There would be complaining to high-hell about it, and it would still be better than random charge lengths since they wouldn't have to deal with overwatch.

Shooting people would complain about cover saves being too strong in 5th, when they were the only thing keeping assault armies possible. Practically every gun in the game has an AP value, but Power weapons are expensive, and easier than ever for shooting armies to snipe. They also don't have to deal with the terrible WS table. That same table that makes it so no matter what your weapon skill, your dedicated assault units still have as much chance of hitting as a marine does shooting, and it takes a ridiculous amount of WS to reduce return melee attacks to merely ork shooting levels.

If assault dedicated armies are going to be in the game, they need to be as good or better than shooting dedicated armies as they only have half the game and half the army to do all their damage. Right now, they are neither.

It doesn't help that BS is often a static 4+ or 3+, while at best with WS you can get a 3+ if you are lucky.

The first time I faced 120 shoota boyz in 5th edition was the game I realized that 40K was officially a shooting game. My BA starting us a lot of mech after that debacle.

Stormbreed wrote:
Biomancy and Swarmlord say

...
COME @ ME BRO

Yup, MCs with Iron Arm can make it to combat. There's what, 2 or 3 armies that can do that? And, you better hope your opponent doesn't kill you before you go. Or kill you on the turn you only get +1. Cause that whole 4 wounds and walking thing isn't exactly the fastest way to get around. On average, in fact, regardless of your iron arm, 20 guardians should be able to shoot you to death before you swing - without accounting for scatter lasers or psychic buffs of their own. So, hey, good luck with that.

The shuriken rule is truly the middle finger to MCs of any type.

 Redbeard wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:
Biomancy and Swarmlord say

...
COME @ ME BRO

Yup, MCs with Iron Arm can make it to combat. There's what, 2 or 3 armies that can do that? And, you better hope your opponent doesn't kill you before you go. Or kill you on the turn you only get +1. Cause that whole 4 wounds and walking thing isn't exactly the fastest way to get around. On average, in fact, regardless of your iron arm, 20 guardians should be able to shoot you to death before you swing - without accounting for scatter lasers or psychic buffs of their own. So, hey, good luck with that.

You only run 1 MC?

Drop 3 MCs in turn two on a 2+, have SWARMY with his 5 wounds walking right at them smiling. Its about target priority and making people make those tough choices.

I'm a combined 10-4 at tournaments so far in 6th edition.

Is it hard to get into CC in 6th, hell yea, it takes an understanding of the game. If I'm on them by turn 3 and lose an MC turn 2, that means they are about to get SMASHED afterwards. Obviously that isn't always the case, nor can every army do this. Add in the Flyrant hititng their lines turn 2, and I mean into the biggest blob of troops they have along with Doom and the line becomes blurred very quickly as to what NEEDS to die.

Thats a 1500 list. I agree as the numbers get higher the shooting takes over. But the BRB recommends 1500-2000 for a reason .

Dan

Paradigm wrote:Yes, Riptides are tau units, but they are hardly representative of the codex. Most of a tau army will consist of T3 WS2 FW with a 4+ save

You're right, the tautau lists I'm seeing are fielding 12 firewarriors but only 4 riptides. That's THREE TIMES as many models that are terrible in close combat than those that aren't.

I guess that means that 40k is still three times as choppy of a game as it should be. Let's see some balance for goodness sake!

 Paradigm wrote:
Yes, Riptides are tau units, but they are hardly representative of the codex. Most of a tau army will consist of T3 WS2 FW with a 4+ save, which even a damaged squad of ASM will destroy if they reach CC, and with a good amount of terrain, multiple targets being offered, and if used properly, they are probably going to reach them.

There are these things called Crisis Suits and Broadside Suits who all come with drones. Those T4 units would like to talk to you. The T3 ones also have photon grenades, so you don't get your extra attacks for charging as well as having S5 guns.

I'm not trying to point out that assault is the be-all-and-end-all of 40k. Shooting and CC are balanced, and the Riptide is one of the units you are better shooting. On the other hand, there are a lot of targets that you are better off assaulting than trying to shoot down, like fire warriors in cover.

Did you just say that shooting and close combat are balanced? Can you then tell me why my Tau shooty list gives me a much higher success rate than any of the combat armies I have? Honestly, I have to call you out on this one. I have played both assault armies and shooting armies under 6th edition and AGAINST THE SAME PEOPLE using their same armies. How is it that my success rate for winning is a lot higher now than it was beforehand?

Trust me. This edition is all about shooting and CC is very difficult indeed.

ASM have never been good at taking on dedicated CC units, they are designed to use their mobility to avoid the dangerous units and kill weak, shooty troops. It makes sense that you're not going to go for CC units with CC units, you're going to shoot them, but the inverse is also true, and CC against shooty units is the best option.

You're talking to a Blood Angel player here. Theres this little thing called decent of angels. You may want to see what it did back in 5th ed.

Farsight bomb is one list in one codex, and against other lists, that aren't tau, then the likes of Lysander+termies is a unit that will do well. not every player is a tau player, and not every army is tau.

Yes, the wolf lord and his termies got killed by mass shooting from Broadsides instead.

The problems with BA are really more to do with changes to do with reserves and low model count than changes to assault, that is why you don't see Dante or meph because they can't afford to drop 200+ points on Characters when their troops are too expensive across the board.

So it has nothing to with the fact that a unit of crisis suits with 6 fusion blasters can kill him easy with the aid of markerlights? Hitting him on 2s and wounding him on 2s and Mephie doesn't even get a save. It has nothing to do with the fact that Mephie is only AP3 now? It has nothing to do with the fact that Mephie gets less cover saves from the terrain around him, or that it gets ignored anyway because, ya know, Tau?

And yet again the example with the GH goes back to tau, and while I appreciate that they are your army and therefore a good example for you to use, there are plenty of armies who can't put out that much firepower. Tau are the best army at shooting these days, as they should be. One army does not mean that suddenly any models on the board will be blown away T1, any more than one army having heldrakes means MEQ might as well not show up, or that Vendettas mean no one should bother bringing fliers.

Tau is indeed the example I am using, but you are forgetting that Eldar got a big shooty update as well. Remind me again what Shurikan weapons do............... Oh, right, they always wound on a 6 and they rend.

 Ailaros wrote:

Paradigm wrote:Yes, Riptides are tau units, but they are hardly representative of the codex. Most of a tau army will consist of T3 WS2 FW with a 4+ save

You're right, the tautau lists I'm seeing are fielding 12 firewarriors but only 4 riptides. That's THREE TIMES as many models that are terrible in close combat than those that aren't.

I guess that means that 40k is still three times as choppy of a game as it should be. Let's see some balance for goodness sake!

... Do you not understand how points systems work? What about FOC? Or simple fething logic? Please tell me that post was sarcastic.

 darthnatus wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

Paradigm wrote:Yes, Riptides are tau units, but they are hardly representative of the codex. Most of a tau army will consist of T3 WS2 FW with a 4+ save

You're right, the tautau lists I'm seeing are fielding 12 firewarriors but only 4 riptides. That's THREE TIMES as many models that are terrible in close combat than those that aren't.

I guess that means that 40k is still three times as choppy of a game as it should be. Let's see some balance for goodness sake!

... Do you not understand how points systems work? What about FOC? Or simple fething logic? Please tell me that post was sarcastic.

It was a sarcastic post from him. However a Tau army is not necessarily vast majority T3. I do fine with only two squads of 12 Fire Warriors and two squads of 10 Pathfinders, everything else in my list is T4 or higher. At 1800pts, that includes a crisis suit commander, 2 full units of Broadsides all with Missile Drones, A Riptide with 2 drones, a hammerhead Tank and 2 crisis suits with fusions. So that is 27 T4 models, 3 T6 models and a hammerhead tank in the mix. If you take the Farsight expansion then you don't need any T3 models at all since crisis suits are troops.

 DarthOvious wrote:

 darthnatus wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

Paradigm wrote:Yes, Riptides are tau units, but they are hardly representative of the codex. Most of a tau army will consist of T3 WS2 FW with a 4+ save

You're right, the tautau lists I'm seeing are fielding 12 firewarriors but only 4 riptides. That's THREE TIMES as many models that are terrible in close combat than those that aren't.

I guess that means that 40k is still three times as choppy of a game as it should be. Let's see some balance for goodness sake!

... Do you not understand how points systems work? What about FOC? Or simple fething logic? Please tell me that post was sarcastic.

It was a sarcastic post from him. However a Tau army is not necessarily vast majority T3. I do fine with only two squads of 12 Fire Warriors and two squads of 10 Pathfinders, everything else in my list is T4 or higher. At 1800pts, that includes a crisis suit commander, 2 full units of Broadsides all with Missile Drones, A Riptide with 2 drones, a hammerhead Tank and 2 crisis suits with fusions. So that is 27 T4 models, 3 T6 models and a hammerhead tank in the mix. If you take the Farsight expansion then you don't need any T3 models at all since crisis suits are troops.

Adding on to what you just listed, JSJ kinda feths up assaults as well.

Before someone mentions that you can't rely on JSJ because it's random: yes. It is. So are charge distances.

Im not seeing anyone talk about Necron Wraiths. I think I saw one or two people mention them. I have had alot of success with them in assault. they are not OP at killing units due to the WS4 considering most armies i face have ws4 or higher in some units, but with 3++, 2 wounds and 3 str 6 rending attacks base. Not to mention they have move through cover due to wraith flight and are jump troops. i have used a 6 man wraith squad soaking up all the damage due to the 3++ save against IG and then took out 3 transports and a few vet squads with a 6 man squad of wraiths. Also i have had them tear through eldar armies lately. I know your going to say " that's just one unit in a codex." which is true but usually with the 6th edition that one assault unit can make the difference. as a lot of people are saying it is a bit more balanced. if you can make use of assault WITH shooting supporting them then it works out quite well.

Also I have had success with lychguard with shield and sword with a overlord.

also in 6th i have had success with CSM termies with 2x l-claws. with those they get shot up but if one or 2 make it into CC they can tear through units.

Berzerkers are dead to me now though. a landraider with Kharn and some berzerkers can be ok but that's about the only way to run them.

with Orks, there is nothing I can say. with so much remove cover weapons even the bikers are not good. the automatic 4+ cover is now useless in a lot of cases. IF you can get them to CC before they are shot up they can do well but with so much shooting based armies there isn't much that can be done.

In a lot of cases CC was hurt bad, but at the same time i found with necrons it compliments everything else I do with that army. CSM may be a bit tougher to make competitive but I do find that CC compliments the army well as either a deterent from the charge (which isnt needed in a lot of cases but can help) or to come in and wipe up a mess created by shooting.

All in all incase this is a tldr post: Assault is not dead. it did take a hit but it is more specific now instead of run forward and assault. you have to use some tactis to use it instead of a dead ahead sprint.

The reason no one really bothers with talking about wraiths is because they are talking about the effect with Tau. A single ultra tough close combat unit in a sea of shooting doesn't prove close combat isn't basically dead in the water. It's the same reason that mentioning the winged-hive tyrant isn't useful to the discussion. We know ultra tough and fast units can make it there, however there are a whole boat load of things that can't and they also can't do anything else.

Zachardm1027 wrote:
All in all incase this is a tldr post: Assault is not dead. it did take a hit but it is more specific now instead of run forward and assault. you have to use some tactis to use it instead of a dead ahead sprint.

Assault has ALWAYS required more tactics than shooting. Shooting is literally pointing at things until they die. Shooting armies almost entirely ignore 2 out of 3 phases of the game. Assault has always been more than run forward and assault. Why is it alright to have one section of the game be point and click, when the other involves jumping through flaming hoops?

My Grey Knights made a 9 inch charge last night that ended an entire 35 man blob squad and another in the same round of 8 inches that ruined a Khorne Berzerker squad. Then I make a 9 inch charge to kill a Chaos Marine unit that had been mauled.

That's three charges I never would have gotten in the old rules. So what if they shot a couple GK's on the way in. It would have been much worse than that for me BEFORE this. And with a few little tricks, you can tilt the odds of that.

Tricks like (this is across several armies obviously):
1. Dirge Casters. Fantastically annoying to enemies like Tau.
2. Teeny spam: taking Mutilators as singular models, dropping them in and then mass assaulting the next round with 6 or seven units. The enemy cant kill them al and all of them, even the teeny units, are dangerous enough to want to.

3. Outflank. It gives your opponent one round instead of 2-3 to whittle you. This is ENORMOUSLY impactful in making your charges stronger. Even if they charge YOU, your assault troops are better off than they would be when spending the extra round or two absorbing fire.

4. Rhino Corners. cant shoot what you cant see. expose just a couple from around the corner, let the enemy take their best shot and then charge. the resultant damage may well not be enough to matter even against the Tau. Support fire is only as useful as the number of units that can do it.

Now people can argue that these things dont work all the time. They'd be right. but they ARE ways to make charging much more impactful parts of your games. And they do work. So it's just a matter of positioning and timing.

Harder yes. But assault isn't dead, say my Grey Knights.

 Jancoran wrote:
My Grey Knights made a 9 inch charge last night that ended an entire 35 man blob squad and another in the same round of 8 inches that ruined a Khorne Berzerker squad. Then I make a 9 inch charge to kill a Chaos Marine unit that had been mauled.

That's three charges I never would have gotten in the old rules. So what if they shot a couple GK's on the way in. It would have been much worse than that for me BEFORE this. And with a few little tricks, you can tilt the odds of that.

You have a 10/36 chance of rolling 9+ on two dice, or 26/36 of failing. On the other hand previously you had 36/36 of making it 6 inches into combat. Over 2/3 chance of failure is not something worth gambling on when you can just shoot with guaranteed range.

Tricks like (this is across several armies obviously):
1. Dirge Casters. Fantastically annoying to enemies like Tau.
2. Teeny spam: taking Mutilators as singular models, dropping them in and then mass assaulting the next round with 6 or seven units. The enemy cant kill them al and all of them, even the teeny units, are dangerous enough to want to.

Chaos only, and most people don't regarding using an entire elite slot for one Mutilator as a plan, admittedly not much in the Chaos Elite slot is worth taking. 6 or 7 units? 6 maximum if you're taking dual FOCs.

3. Outflank. It gives your opponent one round instead of 2-3 to whittle you. This is ENORMOUSLY impactful in making your charges stronger. Even if they charge YOU, your assault troops are better off than they would be when spending the extra round or two absorbing fire.

And then you're dealing with reserve rules and getting your army shot to pieces piecemeal. That said it can be a viable tactic for Ravenwing/White Scars, but then they're still much better at shooting. How many assault units can both outflank, and have the durability to survive even one round of enemy shooting?

4. Rhino Corners. cant shoot what you cant see. expose just a couple from around the corner, let the enemy take their best shot and then charge. the resultant damage may well not be enough to matter even against the Tau. Support fire is only as useful as the number of units that can do it.

Your description is obviously inadequate, you're using your Rhino to block LOS to your unit, then running the unit around the Rhino to get to assault? You then seem to think that the overwatch fire can only hit the couple of models exposed?

Now people can argue that these things dont work all the time. They'd be right. but they ARE ways to make charging much more impactful parts of your games. And they do work. So it's just a matter of positioning and timing.

Harder yes. But assault isn't dead, say my Grey Knights.

Or, you know, you could just load up with guns and shoot the enemy, rather than rely on unreliable charge distances, list gimmicks (available to only a few armies) and hope.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

4. Rhino Corners. cant shoot what you cant see. expose just a couple from around the corner, let the enemy take their best shot and then charge. the resultant damage may well not be enough to matter even against the Tau. Support fire is only as useful as the number of units that can do it.

Your description is obviously inadequate, you're using your Rhino to block LOS to your unit, then running the unit around the Rhino to get to assault? You then seem to think that the overwatch fire can only hit the couple of models exposed?

Technically he is right. Overwatch doesn't override the LOS rules. However, it makes trying to charge slightly more risky as if if those guys that can see and draw a straight line to the enemy die, the charge automatically fails.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Not when the threat is on a T6 2+ monstrous creature that will likely just punch you back and have most of your attacks bounce off the armour save. it shouldn't be easy for a shooting army to just point/click away units at a time without having to move either, and yet it is.

I wasn't aware that the Riptide was the only unit in a Tau army, silly me.

In all seriousness, I'll gladly charge a Riptide with the right unit. Charge a Riptide with ASM or Bloodletters? Sure, especially if I'm just trying to tie it up so I can move a heavy hitter in to finish the job or if the opportunity presented itself to charge with a largely intact squad (volume of attacks can often get the job done thanks to Sweeping Advance). Charge a Riptide with Daemonettes, Seekers, TH/SS Termies, a Venerable Dreadnaught, Plague Marines, any of the many Venom-Sac armed Nid units, or any of the Greater Daemons or Daemon Princes? Sign me up, Riptide-cabobs for everyone

And they get there how?

Intact squad and Tau does not compute.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
My Grey Knights made a 9 inch charge last night that ended an entire 35 man blob squad and another in the same round of 8 inches that ruined a Khorne Berzerker squad. Then I make a 9 inch charge to kill a Chaos Marine unit that had been mauled.

That's three charges I never would have gotten in the old rules. So what if they shot a couple GK's on the way in. It would have been much worse than that for me BEFORE this. And with a few little tricks, you can tilt the odds of that.

You have a 10/36 chance of rolling 9+ on two dice, or 26/36 of failing. On the other hand previously you had 36/36 of making it 6 inches into combat. Over 2/3 chance of failure is not something worth gambling on when you can just shoot with guaranteed range.

Tricks like (this is across several armies obviously):
1. Dirge Casters. Fantastically annoying to enemies like Tau.
2. Teeny spam: taking Mutilators as singular models, dropping them in and then mass assaulting the next round with 6 or seven units. The enemy cant kill them al and all of them, even the teeny units, are dangerous enough to want to.

Chaos only, and most people don't regarding using an entire elite slot for one Mutilator as a plan, admittedly not much in the Chaos Elite slot is worth taking. 6 or 7 units? 6 maximum if you're taking dual FOCs.

3. Outflank. It gives your opponent one round instead of 2-3 to whittle you. This is ENORMOUSLY impactful in making your charges stronger. Even if they charge YOU, your assault troops are better off than they would be when spending the extra round or two absorbing fire.

And then you're dealing with reserve rules and getting your army shot to pieces piecemeal. That said it can be a viable tactic for Ravenwing/White Scars, but then they're still much better at shooting. How many assault units can both outflank, and have the durability to survive even one round of enemy shooting?

4. Rhino Corners. cant shoot what you cant see. expose just a couple from around the corner, let the enemy take their best shot and then charge. the resultant damage may well not be enough to matter even against the Tau. Support fire is only as useful as the number of units that can do it.

Your description is obviously inadequate, you're using your Rhino to block LOS to your unit, then running the unit around the Rhino to get to assault? You then seem to think that the overwatch fire can only hit the couple of models exposed?

Now people can argue that these things dont work all the time. They'd be right. but they ARE ways to make charging much more impactful parts of your games. And they do work. So it's just a matter of positioning and timing.

Harder yes. But assault isn't dead, say my Grey Knights.

Or, you know, you could just load up with guns and shoot the enemy, rather than rely on unreliable charge distances, list gimmicks (available to only a few armies) and hope.

Quitter. Just kidding. But seriously.

Here you miss the point. It literaly doesnt matter what the odds of a 8 inch charge is, because no matter what theodds were, they were better than before. Second, youre response assumes i need to choose between shooting and assaulting. It was an 8 inch charge BECAUSE I shot them first.

You dont need FOC for the teeny spam to work.

You mention that i must "deal" with reserve rules and get shot to pieces to pull this off. Are you ignoring me when i said i was avoiding 1-2rounds of shootin??? A lot of units can definitely both come on, shoot the enemy up and survive reprisal to charge because doing it this way is less shooting to the face than otherwise they would face.

If you read your rulebook, youll find out I am correct about rhino corners.

Shooting isnt bad. Im just telling you that assault aint bad either because heres the ultimate truth: forces that attack morale are the scariest. And melee attacks morale. It will not be as overpowering as it was in 5e and it shouldnt be. But its no lost cause. The only time the random assaults hurt is when in open terrain, less than 6 inches. Every other charge is potentially better.

So, you're saying that assault is good because it's scary, and scared opponents will make mistakes?

I wish I had your opponents.

Unless, of course, you mean to say that assault plays on Ld characteristics, which is true in quality, but not in quantity. It's not that difficult to make your opponent take morale tests due to shooting, while you'll only ever force your opponent to make morale checks if you manage to make it into close combat... and win it with whatever is left.

... unless what you're assaulting is a vehicle, or is embarked in a vehicle, or is stubborn, or is fearless. And it will only matter if they weren't a speedbump or a cheap squad, or something better than you in close combat.

... and did I mention it has to survive long enough to get into close combat?

I dont think i told you it was fear at all.

You must realize that morale is easier to attack. Just one wound can kill a whole unit in combat. Shooting typically takes 3 to force the issue. Psykers and so on all can kill a unit with their primaris power and numerous wargears.

I dont think its important to point out that shooting rocks. I dont think it necessary for shooting to be worse in order for melee to be good. Thats zero sum thinking. I am just telling you that NOT CONSIDERING such tactics will needlessly lead you to losses

JPong wrote:
The reason no one really bothers with talking about wraiths is because they are talking about the effect with Tau. A single ultra tough close combat unit in a sea of shooting doesn't prove close combat isn't basically dead in the water. It's the same reason that mentioning the winged-hive tyrant isn't useful to the discussion. We know ultra tough and fast units can make it there, however there are a whole boat load of things that can't and they also can't do anything else.

To be honest, I don't see what is so tough about wraiths. A unit of 3 are just 6 wounds with a 3++ saves

Zachardm1027 wrote:

All in all incase this is a tldr post: Assault is not dead. it did take a hit but it is more specific now instead of run forward and assault. you have to use some tactis to use it instead of a dead ahead sprint.

Assault has ALWAYS required more tactics than shooting. Shooting is literally pointing at things until they die. Shooting armies almost entirely ignore 2 out of 3 phases of the game. Assault has always been more than run forward and assault. Why is it alright to have one section of the game be point and click, when the other involves jumping through flaming hoops?

It is pretty much that way for Tau now. Tau used to have to move with JSJ but now you can kill pretty much anything before it gets into contact with you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
4. Rhino Corners. cant shoot what you cant see. expose just a couple from around the corner, let the enemy take their best shot and then charge. the resultant damage may well not be enough to matter even against the Tau. Support fire is only as useful as the number of units that can do it.

Your description is obviously inadequate, you're using your Rhino to block LOS to your unit, then running the unit around the Rhino to get to assault? You then seem to think that the overwatch fire can only hit the couple of models exposed?

Out of LOS? Damn.......... guess I'll just need to shoot them with SMS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Not when the threat is on a T6 2+ monstrous creature that will likely just punch you back and have most of your attacks bounce off the armour save. it shouldn't be easy for a shooting army to just point/click away units at a time without having to move either, and yet it is.

I wasn't aware that the Riptide was the only unit in a Tau army, silly me.

In all seriousness, I'll gladly charge a Riptide with the right unit. Charge a Riptide with ASM or Bloodletters? Sure, especially if I'm just trying to tie it up so I can move a heavy hitter in to finish the job or if the opportunity presented itself to charge with a largely intact squad (volume of attacks can often get the job done thanks to Sweeping Advance). Charge a Riptide with Daemonettes, Seekers, TH/SS Termies, a Venerable Dreadnaught, Plague Marines, any of the many Venom-Sac armed Nid units, or any of the Greater Daemons or Daemon Princes? Sign me up, Riptide-cabobs for everyone

Don't let Paradigm know that you're willing to charge a Riptide with assault marines. He'll tell you not to do that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:
Quitter. Just kidding. But seriously.

Here you miss the point. It literaly doesnt matter what the odds of a 8 inch charge is, because no matter what theodds were, they were better than before. Second, youre response assumes i need to choose between shooting and assaulting. It was an 8 inch charge BECAUSE I shot them first.

You dont need FOC for the teeny spam to work.

You mention that i must "deal" with reserve rules and get shot to pieces to pull this off. Are you ignoring me when i said i was avoiding 1-2rounds of shootin??? A lot of units can definitely both come on, shoot the enemy up and survive reprisal to charge because doing it this way is less shooting to the face than otherwise they would face.

If you read your rulebook, youll find out I am correct about rhino corners.

Shooting isnt bad. Im just telling you that assault aint bad either because heres the ultimate truth: forces that attack morale are the scariest. And melee attacks morale. It will not be as overpowering as it was in 5e and it shouldnt be. But its no lost cause. The only time the random assaults hurt is when in open terrain, less than 6 inches. Every other charge is potentially better.

Can I ask a question. What happens the turn you disembark from said Rhino? Do they not blow the Rhino up and then shoot at the guys anyway?

Who cares what the enemy does to the rhino if youre getting out behind it. The issue is, they have to actually explode it and even if successful in not just wrecking it, it means that the enemy has spent a fair amount of effort trying and yet, three more just luke it are in position. Cant kill everything.not fast enough.

As for outflankers, the battlefield viewed from the sides provides a lot of cover,yeah?

I think if you look at the simple truth that we can make the nine inch charges we never could before, and give yourself 3-4 units in position to try, life can be good.

 Jancoran wrote:
Who cares what the enemy does to the rhino if youre getting out behind it. The issue is, they have to actually explode it and even if successful in not just wrecking it, it means that the enemy has spent a fair amount of effort trying and yet, three more just luke it are in position. Cant kill everything.not fast enough.

As for outflankers, the battlefield viewed from the sides provides a lot of cover,yeah?

I think if you look at the simple truth that we can make the nine inch charges we never could before, and give yourself 3-4 units in position to try, life can be good.

A Rhino aint that survivable, plenty of games have gone by where the Rhino can be killed one by one per wave transport on an Eldar side, or even just base heavy weaponry..Or tau glancing it with firewarriors..

Unless you can pack 14+ rhinos with actual threats inside, there's no way most of them will survive.

 Jancoran wrote:
Who cares what the enemy does to the rhino if youre getting out behind it. The issue is, they have to actually explode it and even if successful in not just wrecking it, it means that the enemy has spent a fair amount of effort trying and yet, three more just luke it are in position. Cant kill everything.not fast enough.

As for outflankers, the battlefield viewed from the sides provides a lot of cover,yeah?

I think if you look at the simple truth that we can make the nine inch charges we never could before, and give yourself 3-4 units in position to try, life can be good.

Its a better option than a lot, I'll grant you that but a few weeks ago I did play an Ork player with the same kind of idea coming from him. He had 5 trukks (I think it was trukks) all with Boyz inside. None of the boys actually made combat. However his Warboss on a bike and the bike squad did make combat and did in fact kill the Riptide. Alas, after combat I shot him to death as well. However, its a better option than a lot but also bear in mind that those Ork vehicles are open topped and you can assault from them.

Space Marines have Land Speeder Storms... Scouts can assault out of those...

But then what are five man scout units going to do in combat anyway?

Yes, I agree with the idea that winning combat, even by one point can potentially allow you to destroy an entire unit in one go. Of course you don't actually want to do that on the turn you charge because of all the shooting to the face you'll take standing around after that.

Ravenwing/White Scars are quite good with hit and run, because so long as you're not actually good enough to win combat you can disengage after your opponents turn, avoiding their shooting.

I like 6th edition because I prefer shooting over assault. Guns > swords in terms of effectiveness.

 DarthOvious wrote:

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 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Not when the threat is on a T6 2+ monstrous creature that will likely just punch you back and have most of your attacks bounce off the armour save. it shouldn't be easy for a shooting army to just point/click away units at a time without having to move either, and yet it is.

I wasn't aware that the Riptide was the only unit in a Tau army, silly me.

In all seriousness, I'll gladly charge a Riptide with the right unit. Charge a Riptide with ASM or Bloodletters? Sure, especially if I'm just trying to tie it up so I can move a heavy hitter in to finish the job or if the opportunity presented itself to charge with a largely intact squad (volume of attacks can often get the job done thanks to Sweeping Advance). Charge a Riptide with Daemonettes, Seekers, TH/SS Termies, a Venerable Dreadnaught, Plague Marines, any of the many Venom-Sac armed Nid units, or any of the Greater Daemons or Daemon Princes? Sign me up, Riptide-cabobs for everyone

Don't let Paradigm know that you're willing to charge a Riptide with assault marines. He'll tell you not to do that.

A Riptide is not going to dominate close combat against anything that's not an immobile tank. 3 attacks is okay, but WS 2 and Init 2 is horrible. An ASM squad should tie up a Riptide for a few rounds, hell, they might get lucky and win the combat and kill it with Sweeping Advance. Granted, I don't take ASM that often, but if I have them on the board, I'm going to use them in the best way to help the rest of the army, and if that means charging a Riptide to keep it from shooting or to pin it down so my TH/SS termies or Venerable Dread can finish it, so be it.

I view assault units like ASM and assault-equipped Scouts as a means to an end. They aren't good enough to tackle anything of worth and actually kill it, but they do a great job at speeding (or sneaking) across the battlefield and landing an assault to tie up a unit while my terminators, command squad, or honour guard close the gap.