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I think it's only about 50% as bad as you make it out. If someone told me that for 25 points I could either have the ASF sword OR a double wound sword (my choice) I'd take it. Your items might be random, but that doesn't make them bad.

Some are wonderful. Some are average. At worst, you're getting an item from the BRB of equal cost. At Best you get something wonderful for your situation. Hardly worth a river of tears.

Second, I don't see how RoC is worse for you than for me. Every turn, unless you roll on the bottom (2?) results, you MIGHT have a unit of yours affected. Every single on of mine gets hit. Unless you are unlucky enough to roll "Tizz hates mah nurgles", I take it worse than you every time.

This completely ignores murdering my wizard and gaining one, you getting +1 to your wards, and spawning new units.

And I feel you, being limited on lists, but at least you have a "winner list". My TK's don't even have that, and we have a lore a million times worse than Tzeentch that we HAVE to take, unless we take a special character who gives us only 1 choice to the contrary.

And as far as internal balance goes, while your book is wonky, seems like everyone has SOMETHING that works in a mono list with core being the lamest part admittedly (If Slaanesh.) If you want to run a mash of gods (and not bother with a bsb.. you have great stuff in every comp slot.)

 Thunderfrog wrote:
I think it's only about 50% as bad as you make it out. If someone told me that for 25 points I could either have the ASF sword OR a double wound sword (my choice) I'd take it. Your items might be random, but that doesn't make them bad.

Some are wonderful. Some are average. At worst, you're getting an item from the BRB of equal cost. At Best you get something wonderful for your situation. Hardly worth a river of tears.

Clearly you haven't really sat down and gone through the Gift tables...
The Exalted results overall aren't really worth the 75pts investment unless you get the '6' result, (roll again + Lesser roll), or else default to the E.Blade or Tome (which are worth every freaking point - especially the E.Blade!)

The Greater table has only 5 'actual' results, (one of them is basically 50pts to simply do damage to your character for good reason at all!), and of those 5 results, 2 of them are just copies of BRB magic weapons.
Heralds especially get very little from the Greater table since it's and all-in random roll as it takes their full points allotment. There's very little reason to blow 50pts for a 16% chance at a 2+ armour save for example... (basically, the only 'good' result on the whole table!)

The Less table is the only one really worth considering, as only the one-use 2++ ward save & Skill Swallower ability are sub-par results.

And no, we cannot just "get a BRB item of equal cost"... We're limited first off to simply defaulting to a Magic Weapon, AND, most of them come at a premium cost. (ie: Fencer's Blades cost a Herald of Nurgle 50pts, a +15pts 'tax' as compared to everyone else!)
Our Gifts are awful overall. Most of the time, you just roll to see if you get one specific result and if not, then you're defaulting to a weapon/Hellforged.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
Second, I don't see how RoC is worse for you than for me. Every turn, unless you roll on the bottom (2?) results, you MIGHT have a unit of yours affected. Every single on of mine gets hit. Unless you are unlucky enough to roll "Tizz hates mah nurgles", I take it worse than you every time.

This completely ignores murdering my wizard and gaining one, you getting +1 to your wards, and spawning new units.

RoC is worse for the Daemon player because it's *always* a double-whammy. A low roll is not only effectively a 'lost' magic phase due to lack of Power Dice, but it's ALWAYS bringing an additional catastrophic effect with it;
a) Army-wide Daemonic Instability tests, taken on each unit's unmodified Ld!!! (so no IP, even in mono-armies! )
This on an army with average Ld7, while those Fury screen are Ld2 and instantly fried almost every single time.

b) Random wizard w/DI can auto-pop. So this can be your 500+ pts Greater Daemon... who's also your only Lv4... and your General to boot.

c) Army-wide -1 Ward Save.
Honestly, this is the worst possible result. When this comes up, it's pretty much instant death for our super expensive Lords because they typically only have that 5++ for protection. About the only unit that really weathers this result are Beasts due to their Regen.

Meanwhile, Khorne gets the added junk-shot of getting nailed by The Dark Prince Thirsts result, which is a 3D6 Ld-test. It tends to nuke those so-called Skillcannons quite well and is great at crippling the likes of Hounds & Bloodcrushers to boot when it connects on them.

Conversely, opponents only *really* fear the 11 result - random wizard on your side probably turns into a naked, un-upgraded Herald. The only shooting result really worth sweating over is again, the DPT's result. The Nurgle & Tzeentch shots are pretty situational, while the Khorne stone thrower shot likes to scatter.
So yeah, Riegn of Comedy is much worse for the Daemon player since the negatives we take are far harsher than any bonuses from the table.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
And I feel you, being limited on lists, but at least you have a "winner list". My TK's don't even have that, and we have a lore a million times worse than Tzeentch that we HAVE to take, unless we take a special character who gives us only 1 choice to the contrary.

And as far as internal balance goes, while your book is wonky, seems like everyone has SOMETHING that works in a mono list with core being the lamest part admittedly (If Slaanesh.) If you want to run a mash of gods (and not bother with a bsb.. you have great stuff in every comp slot.)

I don't see why a..


Kos = Lord
(He's probably the 'best' Lord choice honestly... E.Blade + Lesser roll & Lv4 on Slaany Lore if you like making people cry. AoE Cacophonic is broken levels of good actually)

Herald = Your most important core/lord/or favorite special
(These guys outside of the Nurgle one are all overcosted honestly. Outside of a couple cookie-cutter set-ups, they're among the game's worst characters as you can't protect them!!! (even S3 rips them apart because they're naked)

Bloodletters/P'Bearers = Core
(Bloodletters are overcosted. Go 40 or go home.
Plaguies w/Regen Herald are solid but boring, Daemonettes feel like inferior elves now and Horrors are becoming the clear-cut winners)

Fiends/Beasts = Special
(Beasts single-handedly save the entire book because they're that good. Fiends have little place outside of a Caco-spam. 3x 5 strong Furies are mandatory for chaffing)

Skill Cannons = Rare
(These are noob traps plain and simple... RoC wrecks them. Soul Grinders, one or more 3-4 strong Plaguedrones w/poisoned attack upgrade and double Burny Chariots are the real winners in Rare)

has no chance of winning.

Tomb Kings may also be in an equal yet slightly different place, but I highly doubt you also get the added junk-shot on an entire book that auto-hard counters you! (looking at you Light Coven HE's!!! )

If there wasn't a chance they died to RoC, Skill Cannons would have to be banned.

Take an Empire Cannon.

Make it a Chariot.

Give it Str4/T5.

Give it a chance to regen wounds.

Why not killing blow?

Then let it move and shoot.

For 20 extra points?

Skillcannons are the best thing in that book. And actually, Demons auto hard counter kings.

Kings Strengths - Unbreakable, Cause Fear, Easy Access to Killing Blow, High T Monsters.

Demons are - Better Unbreakable, Immune to Fear, Ignore Killing Blow, easy access to poison.


Also, I wouldn't say High Elves auto-counter you.

Banner of the World Dragon is pretty damn good against most armies, but its the only thing you would regularly see. The Lady is sub-optimal in most cases, except demons. So if you and a HE player throw down and he has both, he tailored really hard. I doubt youll see it in a tourney unless your meta is full of demon players.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
If there wasn't a chance they died to RoC, Skill Cannons would have to be banned.

Take an Empire Cannon.
Make it a Chariot.
Give it Str4/T5.
Give it a chance to regen wounds.
Why not killing blow?
Then let it move and shoot.
For 20 extra points?
Skillcannons are the best thing in that book. And actually, Demons auto hard counter kings.

Please go and smack your local Daemon player(s) with their books if they're playing the whole thing as Killing Blow, because only the 2 measly Bloodletter attacks actually have it!

The Gorefeast ability which is the regaining wounds is only on the Impact Hits. If you have the thing in range of something more than basic chaff, charge it and watch it fall apart to Daemonic Instability.

The Ogre version is head and shoulders better than ours. It's much sturdier, it isn't dealing with Daemonic Instanbility & the almost certain lack of Inspiring Presence AND doesn't have to put up with a chart that loves to insta-fry the things. (and don't forget ours misfires just like a normal cannon too!)

Khannons are undercosted by 30-40pts for sure, but Beasts of Nurgle are miles better in every single way except shooting. ('cause they have none)
T5/W4, 5++ & Regen and 2-7 poisoned attacks per front rank model plus up to 3 per dude from the rear ranks is ridiculously good on its own. Then you add-on Attention Seeker for Challenging AND get Slime Trail to negate any flank/rear charge bonuses.
Khannons don't hold a candle to Beasts. Beasts are the game's best anvil unit, but are also super killy themselves, AND work brilliantly as chaff & chaff killers. Khannons are only scary to big monsters and can move and shoot.

 Zagman wrote:
Kings Strengths - Unbreakable, Cause Fear, Easy Access to Killing Blow, High T Monsters.

Demons are - Better Unbreakable, Immune to Fear, Ignore Killing Blow, easy access to poison.

No, just no. Daemonic Instability is not 'better unbreakable'. For large units - yes because our foot troops don't auto-explode when they get massacred, but it's worse than Unstable on our big guys by a longshot. (oh look, boxcars, well there goes my 500+ pts General just because he lost combat by 1 freaking point!)

We do not ignore Killing Blow. Our Heralds are actually more vulnerable to it than most combat characters who likely run a 4++ (or sometimes even better!) save.
Honestly, Khorne players could cry about TK's ignoring their KB because your Core Chariots, Necro Knights, Ushabti, Giants et all are just as immune as our monstrous units.
Only Nurgle gets poison. You only see so much of it because Nurgle units overall are so much better than the other Gods outside of the Greater slot!

You still have Khalida though, and facing a massive unit of 5+ to-hit poisoned arrows isn't fun for us, especially our Greaters who are fairly fragile for their cost. (again, we have only a 16% chance at gaining a 2+ save, and it's on the table that only Papa Nurgle ever likes rolling on - the others are better off with the 75/25 set-up)
Plus, you have entire units of Core Chariots, T8 monsters (our Greaters can only dream of such), much better synergy from your characters who can also buy multiple levels of protection and thus don't fall over to a stiff breeze!!!
You also have easy access to Death magic, (Nurgle folds to P.Sun), and Light magic. Sure maybe not on a Lv4, but Lv2's can go to town with it and Light magic does horrible things to Daemons. (and Undead too) Not to mention Lore of Light is the perfect answer to your naturally abysmal WS/I and can even help counter ASF units.

 Zagman wrote:
Also, I wouldn't say High Elves auto-counter you.

Banner of the World Dragon is pretty damn good against most armies, but its the only thing you would regularly see. The Lady is sub-optimal in most cases, except demons. So if you and a HE player throw down and he has both, he tailored really hard. I doubt youll see it in a tourney unless your meta is full of demon players.

Lol! I'm sorry, but Alarielle Light Councils are pretty much THE strongest build for High Elves! Bubble-casting all those buffs at +8 off of her White Lion unit, while the Banishment wizard can happily 6-dice away when needed and not care too much about the side-effects...
On top of them being able to stack better Ward saves than we can, while also enjoying all the other bonuses of being elves. Even our power builds get stuffed by this. (nurgle especially hard - Cacobomb can play for a draw or minor victory if it gets lucky enough)

Clearly you haven't seen what a proper Alarielle list looks like... It gets even nastier if Alith is allowed to join to party.

You still have Khalida though, and facing a massive unit of 5+ to-hit poisoned arrows isn't fun for us, especially our Greaters who are fairly fragile for their cost. (again, we have only a 16% chance at gaining a 2+ save, and it's on the table that only Papa Nurgle ever likes rolling on - the others are better off with the 75/25 set-up)

You are right. In fairness, Khalida + 40-60 archers is the closest thing we have to a "the list", but it is sooo easily countered. Since undead can't stand and shoot, just keep charging with chaff until your big block of kill shows up.

Plus, you have entire units of Core Chariots

Demons whomp this. Yea, we show up with a lot of impact hits but they can't negate your ward save and chariots are dead points if the unit they hit doesn't break... which your unit doesn't do!

,T8 monsters (our Greaters can only dream of such), much better synergy from your characters who can also buy multiple levels of protection and thus don't fall over to a stiff breeze!!!

We CAN access book-based armor and wards, that is in the TK's favor for sure. They also have 1 higher toughness and wound in comparison to the average human hero. We do get flammable in return. =(

You also have easy access to Death magic, (Nurgle folds to P.Sun), and Light magic. Sure maybe not on a Lv4, but Lv2's can go to town with it and Light magic does horrible things to Daemons. (and Undead too) Not to mention Lore of Light is the perfect answer to your naturally abysmal WS/I and can even help counter ASF units.

The problem there is those spells have high cast values, which level 2's struggle to meet unless you have huge magic phases (which TK's get help with from caskets and heirotitans.)

I really wasn't trying to get into a which is worse, I'm just saying that in my meta, Daemons do well...to the point they win more often than not. (Granted, they all use THE LIST.) There are a few that go against the grain with Cacobomb, Tzeentch (With Flamers! and Screamers!), and a successful Undivided lists, but the majority are Gang Green.

As far as Allarielle goes, I've yet to see her run in reality. I see a lot of net-lists and such, but it seems (At least at New World, The Alamo, Shiloh, and a few small tourneys in Texas) not much of an all comers list.

 Thunderfrog wrote:


I really wasn't trying to get into a which is worse, I'm just saying that in my meta, Daemons do well...to the point they win more often than not. (Granted, they all use THE LIST.) There are a few that go against the grain with Cacobomb, Tzeentch (With Flamers! and Screamers!), and a successful Undivided lists, but the majority are Gang Green.

I play in an uncomped environment, and currently, there aren't any players who bother bringing DoC to tournaments anymore, not even "the list."

We had a local tournament just yesterday with 24 entrants, and not one DoC entrant. One was planning on bringing his Nurgle list, but opted to bring DE instead, and I believe he won.

Saldiven wrote:

 Thunderfrog wrote:


I really wasn't trying to get into a which is worse, I'm just saying that in my meta, Daemons do well...to the point they win more often than not. (Granted, they all use THE LIST.) There are a few that go against the grain with Cacobomb, Tzeentch (With Flamers! and Screamers!), and a successful Undivided lists, but the majority are Gang Green.

I play in an uncomped environment, and currently, there aren't any players who bother bringing DoC to tournaments anymore, not even "the list."

We had a local tournament just yesterday with 24 entrants, and not one DoC entrant. One was planning on bringing his Nurgle list, but opted to bring DE instead, and I believe he won.

The big problems with Nurgle Wall is that it get hosed by P.Sun, (and Death is still quite popular, so it's not like it's a special case of taking it makes your army worse), and it's an incredibly boring army to play with.

Caco-bomb is too all-or-nothing for most players, as if your super spell doesn't get through, you really have to understand and know your army to get the most out of Slaanesh since you're really just 'inferior elves' atm.
Slaanesh is basically Fantasy's version of Dark Eldar.

In an uncomped area, DoC aren't worth wasting your breath if there's plenty of Elves, (both High & Dark), Empire or WoC about unless you love a challenge. All of those are pretty awful match-ups.

In uncomped areas, I do see the DoC doing very very well
The combination of dual Khannons (that are way better than the Ogres, as they are still dangerous when flanked and bc they have that 5++), cheap channels from Horrors&Heralds plus beasts and/or drones
Sprinkle some Plaguebearers as one of the toughest infantry in the game, and it becomes really awful to face (I know, it is "the list", but there's a reason to that)

In the last tournament I went to DOC came in 2nd place with the list plus Eppi and Kairos.

That said I can see why the problems especially for Mono-Tzeentch and Mono-Khorne, even in Mono-Slaanesh.

But Reign of Chaos and a 5++ ward are usually a net benefit not a net cost.


.

 captain collius wrote:
In the last tournament I went to DOC came in 2nd place with the list plus Eppi and Kairos.

That said I can see why the problems especially for Mono-Tzeentch and Mono-Khorne, even in Mono-Slaanesh.

But Reign of Chaos and a 5++ ward are usually a net benefit not a net cost.


.

Agree.

Our local meta has gotten Dark Elf heavy (I think there were six DE players in that 24 man tournament).

DE do a number on pretty much anything that DoC can bring to the table. Even Nurgle builds.

Just for comparison, a unit of 30 Witch Elves against a unit of 30 Plaguebearers (Core vs Core) should end with about 16-17 Witches left and no Plagubearers without any outside interference from either side. Should only take three combat phases, too, not counting any losses (or potential gains) from the Instability Test.

The preponderance of DE, HE and WoC in our local area make playing DoC something you do for funsies.

 Thunderfrog wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
In the last tournament I went to DOC came in 2nd place with the list plus Eppi and Kairos.

That said I can see why the problems especially for Mono-Tzeentch and Mono-Khorne, even in Mono-Slaanesh.

But Reign of Chaos and a 5++ ward are usually a net benefit not a net cost.

Agree.

Try being on the receiving end of it... One bad roll and you lose your Magic Phase for a turn, plus maybe all your chaff/a key character/half of your save.

The 5++ isn't being combined anymore with additional layers of protection, unless you're insanely lucky. The best armour save we can get is now a 4+ on 'Crushers or 3+ on Khannons. Our Heroes outside of Nurgle are the game's easiest to kill, and our Lords have the game's worst protection.
But sure, we can make a 5++ vs. S5/6 on our basic dudes! Still makes me cry when my LoC eats a face-full of Bolters/cannonballs and unlike every other Lord in the game, get's no 'Look out Sir!' and only a 5++ instead of the game-standard 4++ or sometimes even better...

Reign of Comedy has nuked me far more than it's ever helped, as it has done to pretty much most other DoC players. For every game its supposedly 'won it for me', I can easily point out at least a half-dozen more it's either done nothing, or else screwed me over entirely.

Saldiven wrote:
Our local meta has gotten Dark Elf heavy (I think there were six DE players in that 24 man tournament).

DE do a number on pretty much anything that DoC can bring to the table. Even Nurgle builds.

Just for comparison, a unit of 30 Witch Elves against a unit of 30 Plaguebearers (Core vs Core) should end with about 16-17 Witches left and no Plagubearers without any outside interference from either side. Should only take three combat phases, too, not counting any losses (or potential gains) from the Instability Test.

The preponderance of DE, HE and WoC in our local area make playing DoC something you do for funsies.

Dark Elves are basically what Slaanesh Daemons only wish they could be! (ASF should NEVER! have been stripped from their base special rules) Daemonettes vs. any DE unit is a complete joke now.

I feel your pain, I see far too many HE's, DE's, WoC as well, with a few Empire and the odd VC, Skaven & Lizzie lists. But HE's & WoC are the most popular near me... everyone and their mother seems to have suddenly found an old High Elf army hiding in the back of their hobby closet!

I'm telling you, Reign isn't that bad. I don't own Daemons, but
I play them nearly every week.

I cannot, as a rule, bring 5 man units of anything. My Kings have undead leadership. My Reavers, Silver Helms, Archers, and Swordmasters get no saves vs the RoC.

I get hurt by it unless you roll abysmally low. I know you say this is a double whammy for you, but it's no different than me watching you have max magic dice and spawn a new unit to rear charge or flank something mired in combat with Plaguebearers.

As Thunderfrog says, Reign is tilted in favour of the Daemons, simply because you can mitigate it by not taking a four-gods army
The other player simply doesn't have that possibility (I know my Skavens hate it, my chaff disappearing in droves) and while the table as a whole is a terrible idea (lots of rolling for not that much effect usually), it's not a weakness for the daemon army

Guys, no one said Reign isn't a net beneficial, it's just that when it swings bad it swings realllllly bad for the Daemon player that it pretty much decides the game then.

When comparing the lowest 3 results to the highest 3, the highest 3 in all honesty don't do much...
But the lowest 3 will cost you half of your army or at least swing the game heavily in the opponent's favor.

a 5++ on your 500-600 points Lord is NOT a NORM.
a 6++ is pretty much a guaranteed death for him
a 4++ is pretty much standard on most Lords.
on top of that there's LoS which our Lord don't have access to and that's huge when meeting a cannonball.

TanKoL wrote:
As Thunderfrog says, Reign is tilted in favour of the Daemons, simply because you can mitigate it by not taking a four-gods army
The other player simply doesn't have that possibility (I know my Skavens hate it, my chaff disappearing in droves) and while the table as a whole is a terrible idea (lots of rolling for not that much effect usually), it's not a weakness for the daemon army

My experience in playing doesn't support this, at all.

Taking damage on virtually every unit in your army is not balanced out by getting a 10 (average) man unit of Core troops.

I have never had an opponent's wizard fail the Ld test for the roll of 11, though I have lost a Herald to a roll of 3.

The ward save modification was addressed above.

As for the damage-dealing rolls, in the 8 or so months that the DoC book has been out, I can count on my two hands the number of times that I have done any wounds to my opponent with the RoC table. I had played the new book for almost two months before I did my first wound with it (to anyone, friend or foe).

Seriously, the odds of doing any damage to anyone with the RoC table is really low. First, you have to roll the 5, 6, 8, or 9 results. That's only a 50% chance. Then, you have to roll a "6" for each potential unit, ignoring units in combat. Then, if the roll is the Tzeentch or Khorne, you have to scatter. Then you start rolling to see if any wounds are done.

I have never, not even once, rolled a "hit" with the Khorne RoC effect. The strongest effect is the Slaanesh effect, but it only has a 13.8% chance of occurring in any given phase, then has to roll to hit each unit. I play mono-Khorne, so that result is just as likely to wreck me as it is my opponent.

Additionally, I'd suggest you go over to the DoC forums; you can find a link to them on Warseer's tactics page. The math was done there. Playing mono-god doesn't actually lessen the impact of the RoC table. Instead of having a chance to have a couple of units hit at any given time by the RoC table if you play multi-god, playing mono-god means that if you make that bad roll, your potential for being hit is dramatically higher. Statistically, playing mono-god is identical in potential self-damage from the RoC table to playing poly-god. All the RoC table does is create a bunch of extra rolling for no net benefit to the army that has the rule. It exists merely for fluffiness. There are so many things wrong with the table (such as the fact the rolls compound the situation; a low roll not only gives you few casting dice, but it whacks your army, while a high roll not only gives you lots of casting dice, but it whacks the opponent).

The mono-god lists can mitigate the big bad negative effects in 2 ways. Fateweaver and the reroll winds gift. I've ran some Fateweaver lists and really like them, but I play a lot of 2k events due to my local area, so I run a LOC.

I don't mind the ROC table at all. I would like other ways to manipulate it however.

I'd love Fateweaver if he weren't even easier to kill than a regular lord. Sure, he can get one re-roll per player turn and re-roll one's on his ward save, but he's only T-5 with a single low WS attack.

I gave him a try for about a half dozen games back in the summer because I really liked playing him in the last book. I gave him up after he was killed by a charging unit of five mounted marauders; lost combat by 3 (took two wounds, inflicted none, got charged) and popped on Instability. He's just too darn expensive to be that fragile.

626-

I understand that you can't stack protection on your T 6 Flying Deamon general. Generally you don't need to much else. Yes you've been nuked by Reign of Chaos my experiences with it are that it hits me harder than it hits my opponent. So it depends on the meta you play-in apparently.

Also if you keep rolling poorly get new dice. Then set one on fire in front of the others. this usually convices them to behave.

 captain collius wrote:
626-

I understand that you can't stack protection on your T 6 Flying Deamon general. Generally you don't need to much else.

I'd trade T6 and Thunderstomp any day of the week in order to get access to the BRB magic items and a LoS.

 captain collius wrote:
626-

I understand that you can't stack protection on your T 6 Flying Deamon general. Generally you don't need to much else. Yes you've been nuked by Reign of Chaos my experiences with it are that it hits me harder than it hits my opponent. So it depends on the meta you play-in apparently.

T6 isn't amazing protection anymore since 6's always wound nowadays. Also, there's a lot more things like poisoned attacks, more cannonballs and 'oodles of new monsters & monstrous units that make T6/5++ far less noteworthy than it was even just a few years ago.

Flying can help mitigate some, but still, our Greaters are fairly 'meh' overall when compared to the game's other Lord options.
Outside of the staple E.Blade + Lesser roll, it's very hit-and-miss for a Greater to tackle say an enemy general on a big beastie of their own while tackling a monstrous unit is pure suicide. Thunderstomp on average just barely keeps us from popping to DI vs. the hordes of little guys. And they run like scared little girls from any unit with S6 now.

Sure a Greater looks and maybe feels super threatening, but honestly, T6/5++ isn't nearly enough vs. an opponent who can keep their head about them and treat it just like you would any big 500-550+ pts sinkhole.
The fact that our Lv'4 are tied into those Greaters makes them even less desirable to use in their supposedly staple role of being a combat beast, especially when RoC can and will help them bleed wounds they don't have to spare.

In a world of Blender Lord Vampires, unkillable DP's/Chaos Lords, Star Dragon Lords, ASF S6/1+ save Dreadlords, ASF Ogre Tyrants/Oldbloods, etc... all of whom tend to also sport a 4++ or better save, our Greaters just don't seem so Great anymore.
Not to mention the complete lack of LoS as already pointed out, thus forcing us to babysit those big targets with Beasts/Fiends, etc... to simply act as bullet/cannonball catchers.

 captain collius wrote:
Also if you keep rolling poorly get new dice. Then set one on fire in front of the others. this usually convices them to behave.

It's not so much that I need new dice or that I need to threaten them into behaving, so much as it is that my entire family is simply cursed due a slight 'misunderstanding' we once had with the Pope... and then later the Di Medici's... (apparently God really does get pissed when you try to kill the Pope.)

Experiment 626 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Also if you keep rolling poorly get new dice. Then set one on fire in front of the others. this usually convices them to behave.

It's not so much that I need new dice or that I need to threaten them into behaving, so much as it is that my entire family is simply cursed due a slight 'misunderstanding' we once had with the Pope... and then later the Di Medici's... (apparently God really does get pissed when you try to kill the Pope.)

Yeah we had one with English royalty. It tends to create issues.


I admit a 5++ is not reliable. Also keep in mind That we have seen the abuses of the 1++ flying demon prince. If you had a KOS with armor of silvered steel and dawnstone that would be t 6 with 5 W and a 2++ rerolling 5++ Thats a bit nuts. So should they have give you choices rather than tables? Probably. But the book is not as bad as people think., nor is it as broken. That said Nurgle is a donkey.

 captain collius wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Also if you keep rolling poorly get new dice. Then set one on fire in front of the others. this usually convices them to behave.

It's not so much that I need new dice or that I need to threaten them into behaving, so much as it is that my entire family is simply cursed due a slight 'misunderstanding' we once had with the Pope... and then later the Di Medici's... (apparently God really does get pissed when you try to kill the Pope.)

Yeah we had one with English royalty. It tends to create issues.

And who says history is boring!

 captain collius wrote:
I admit a 5++ is not reliable. Also keep in mind That we have seen the abuses of the 1++ flying demon prince. If you had a KOS with armor of silvered steel and dawnstone that would be t 6 with 5 W and a 2++ rerolling 5++ Thats a bit nuts. So should they have give you choices rather than tables? Probably. But the book is not as bad as people think., nor is it as broken. That said Nurgle is a donkey.

I honestly love the concept of rolling for Gifts, but Ward simply botched things big time when he implemented it... Why couldn't we have simply had our 4 'protective' Gifts all under the same level, as it is in 40k for example?
I don't expect or even want to see us get the level of stupidity that WoC DP's get, but considering how important our Greaters/Princes are, it sucks that we're basically always heading into battle effectively naked compared to every other Lord choice in the entire game! (hell, even freaking Wood Elves can give their combat Lords a 2+/4++ save if they so choose!)

I'd still argue that our book is fundamentally broken, as it's such a god-awful mess and is just dysfunctional in practice. Sure we can build a kickarse list, but then, every book has at least one killer/gimmick list that wrecks face.
But unlike the rest of the 8th ed books, we don't even come close to the sheer variety of viable lists/options that everyone else, (yes, even Tomb Kings!), got... I'm not wanting my mono-Tzeentch to turn into the ultimate, 'easy button' tournament-crushing list of all time, but I do expect something beyond a boring-arse magical gunline that tends to explode in my face more often than my opponent's.

but considering how important our Greaters/Princes are, it sucks that we're basically always heading into battle effectively naked compared to every other Lord choice in the entire game

I guess that would be fair if you were willing to give up 6 wounds (down to 3), Str 6+, T6+, 5++, Terror, Unbreakable, Magical Attacks, Demonic Boons and Thunderstomps?

I don't think I would ever play a game against a demon army that had everything you seem to want in it.

Lo! Here comes the 500pt Greater Demon with a 2+/5++ with 6 wounds, S6/T6, and 5 attacks who can get LoS's, can adjust Winds of Magic rolls by up to d6, has the Tzeentch Lore (old book), can take any magic lore, has heralds who can buy Chaos Armor and Shields, (whom are also wizards), leading AP ASF Demonettes, 11 point WS5, S5, T4 Heralds, Plaguebearers with 4+ armor saves. Fiends with Str4 shots that are (not)Multiple Shots and QTF.... it just... man.. if you got everything this thread has asked for Demons would be more broke than last edition.

 Thunderfrog wrote:

but considering how important our Greaters/Princes are, it sucks that we're basically always heading into battle effectively naked compared to every other Lord choice in the entire game

I guess that would be fair if you were willing to give up 6 wounds (down to 3), Str 6+, T6+, 5++, Terror, Unbreakable, Magical Attacks, Demonic Boons and Thunderstomps?

We're not Unbreakable, our Greaters are a worse version of Unstable. Stop comparing the WoC DP as being on the same level as DoC Lords.
The only way we can get beyond S6 is through magic weapons/random Gift, while it costs a laughable 75pts for a chance at +2T - which is still meaningless for non GUO's vs. cannonballs/stone thrower direct hits. (and keeping +2T means no E.Blade awesomesauce or Tome to somewhat control RoC).

Our Lords are really just middle of the road, while our DP's are a joke compared to their WoC cousins.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
I don't think I would ever play a game against a demon army that had everything you seem to want in it.

Lo! Here comes the 500pt Greater Demon with a 2+/5++ with 6 wounds, S6/T6, and 5 attacks who can get LoS's, can adjust Winds of Magic rolls by up to d6, has the Tzeentch Lore (old book), can take any magic lore, has heralds who can buy Chaos Armor and Shields, (whom are also wizards), leading AP ASF Demonettes, 11 point WS5, S5, T4 Heralds, Plaguebearers with 4+ armor saves. Fiends with Str4 shots that are (not)Multiple Shots and QTF.... it just... man.. if you got everything this thread has asked for Demons would be more broke than last edition.

Seriously? Hyperbole aside because half that whine-fest is just made-up gak, you really need to get over your Daemon hate.

Yes, for one summer DoC were 5th edition Herohammer levels of stupidly OP fanboy gak. Once DE's & WoC came out, they took the spotlight, followed by Lizzies & Skaven.
8th nerfed a good portion of our book, (hello Nurgle!), and like the really moronic stuff from all the power creep era books, we kept our really moronic stuff like cheap Master of Sorcery, Siren Song & seriously undercosted Bloodletters.

I don't want a broken book. I just want a book that isn't a dysfunctional gak-storm of recycled monkey feces that reads as though Ward shoved his pen up his backside and convulsed all over the page & called it done.

 Thunderfrog wrote:

Lo! Here comes the 500pt Greater Demon with a 2+/5++ with 6 wounds, S6/T6, and 5 attacks who can get LoS's, can adjust Winds of Magic rolls by up to d6, has the Tzeentch Lore (old book), can take any magic lore, has heralds who can buy Chaos Armor and Shields, (whom are also wizards), leading AP ASF Demonettes, 11 point WS5, S5, T4 Heralds, Plaguebearers with 4+ armor saves. Fiends with Str4 shots that are (not)Multiple Shots and QTF.... it just... man.. if you got everything this thread has asked for Demons would be more broke than last edition.

Well, considering nobody in this thread has asked for any of that....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Thunderfrog wrote:

Skillcannons are the best thing in that book. And actually, Demons auto hard counter kings.

Kings Strengths - Unbreakable, Cause Fear, Easy Access to Killing Blow, High T Monsters.

Demons are - Better Unbreakable, Immune to Fear, Ignore Killing Blow, easy access to poison.


Also, I wouldn't say High Elves auto-counter you.

Banner of the World Dragon is pretty damn good against most armies, but its the only thing you would regularly see. The Lady is sub-optimal in most cases, except demons. So if you and a HE player throw down and he has both, he tailored really hard. I doubt youll see it in a tourney unless your meta is full of demon players.

The Skullcannon and the Beasts of Nurgle are the only under-costed units in the book. 'Cannon should probably be 150-160, and the Beasts should probably be 80 or so.

Pretty much everything else in the book is overcosted to one degree or another, with the possible exception of a few that are probably right where they need to be.

High Elves aren't an "auto counter," but a tooled tournament HE list has a big advantage over a tooled DoC tournament list. Dark Elves, on the other hand, are just plain a bad day all the way around for a DoC opponent.

I'm only new to warhammer, but my 2c anyway:

1: Lords.
Firstly, I don't think these guys are mandatory, at all. If you do take one, I think you have to roll on the 75 pt table.
If you don't get what you like on the table, use one of the choices. I think I'd be more likely to take any of the options but the E blade personally.

2: Ward saves.
army-wide 5++ is no joke. Focus on lots of troops over characters to maximise the benefits of the ward save.

3. RoC.
mono or dual-god seems the obvious choice to minimise the number of results which can hurt your army. Tome seems the obvious choice if you have both a Lord and mono.

4. Inefficient core troops.
Loci + big unitls improves their efficiency hugely. The chaff/chaff clearers (hounds etc) are already good from what I've seen on these forums.

5. BotWD
This thing is stupid. One of the dumbest design choices I've ever seen, especially since it's never been errata'd.

5. Banner of the WotWD is really hit or miss. Some armies don't care about it at all and some hate on it with every breath.

The one thing I think is wrong with it is that it doesn't cost 55 points, so it has to go on a BSB. Being able to take it on any magic standard is crazy good.

That said, non-demons can either use shooting (especially war machines vs t3 elves) to eliminate the unit instead.

I still waffle on whether or not its better than the old one. You were outright unaffected by magic and it cost 100 points.

626 has made it really clear that he will never say anything about the new DoC book is not horrible. Every single time someone comes up with any suggestion he will state the existence of some theoretical counter. Well no shiz, this is a game of rock scissors paper, every build/unit/meta has a counter(s). If it doesn't, it's broken and needs to be removed. But it's pretty rare you're going to fight someone with an exact counter to your exact strategy unless you tell them beforehand or you run the same thing every time at a local.

New Daemons have done consistently well in tournaments. I just did a rescan and saw them placed top 5 most times.

Again, I think there are tons of annoyances which have turned me off to DoC. But they are still highly competitive. YOUR dice and YOUR results may be horrible, but the collected stats from across the gaming world don't seem to jive with them.

Throwback wrote:
I'm only new to warhammer, but my 2c anyway:

1: Lords.
Firstly, I don't think these guys are mandatory, at all. If you do take one, I think you have to roll on the 75 pt table.
If you don't get what you like on the table, use one of the choices. I think I'd be more likely to take any of the options but the E blade personally.

They're not mandatory because they're woefully inefficient for the most part due to a combination of the overall awful Gift tables, lack of viable protection and screwed-up Inspiring Presence rules.

The GUO will love going for the 50/50 or 50/25/25 set-up because Fencer's Blades or Balesword on him are amazing. The rest will almost always spend for the 75/25 set-up simply because a 16% chance at a 'free' Lesser Gift is leagues ahead of a 16% chance for the 2+ armour. (the Greater table is pure garbage overall)
The Exalted table for the most part is either entirely situational, or else the results really aren't worth 75pts. The E.Blade on the other hand is worth every damn penny, turning your close combat monster into an even better close combat monster. (I'd still take it at 100pts as it's really that good!) The Tome is really there to prevent the Reign of Comedy from nuking you, and also to give Khorne a leg-up in the magic phase.

The fact that outside of the Lesser table you're usually defaulting to magic weapon is telling. I'd rather be forced to make hard decisions over what option to take, rather than literally always hoping for only 'X' or default.

Throwback wrote:
2: Ward saves.
army-wide 5++ is no joke. Focus on lots of troops over characters to maximise the benefits of the ward save.

Our Core is generally over-costed and readily requires Heralds to work as intended. We get the most millage out of our Special and Rare sections and these are typically the units that have to do all the heavy lifting.

Army-wide 5++ is something of a win-lose. Vs. the majority of S3/S4 attacks that rule the game, it becomes marginally better than the standard 5+ save most other Core units get and is slightly worse than anyone capable of running lots of 4+ save units.
Where it really shine is vs. S5/6 where it is typically hands-down better than everything bar a 1+ save.
A 5++ max on our characters however is a huge disadvantage as it makes them inferior to everyone else's. Outside of Tzheralds, ALL of our characters want to be in combat. Combat characters in general almost universally sport a 4++ and/or a re-rollable 1+/2+ save. We get a very expensive & random shot at layered protection, while also lacking key protections like LoS on our very expensive Lords.

Throwback wrote:
3. RoC.
mono or dual-god seems the obvious choice to minimise the number of results which can hurt your army. Tome seems the obvious choice if you have both a Lord and mono.

Mono-god being 'safer' is somewhat of a myth, especially for mono-Khorne & mono-Tzeentch who are actually more likely to get hit than mono-Nurgle or Slaanesh. (The Slaany & Nurgle results have 5 possible rolls vs. only 4 possible rolls for the Khorne/Tzeentch storms)
The Tome is really only a no-brainer in a mono-Khorne list. That GUO almost never wants to roll on the Exalted table, while both the LoC & Kipper much prefer the E.Blade. (though the LoC might want the Wand when landing the +1DD per attempt gift, depending on who you're up against.)

All we really needed was this thing to go off in the Shooting Phase AND to have Instruments provide re-rolls just like the 40k versions do.

Throwback wrote:
4. Inefficient core troops.
Loci + big unitls improves their efficiency hugely. The chaff/chaff clearers (hounds etc) are already good from what I've seen on these forums.

This is true only for Khorne & Nurgle really, and even then, only Bloodletters will ever run in big units. Regen 'Bearers are fine at 30, while the problem with running big units of Daemonettes is that your Herald is too squishy. (T3/W2/5++ falls to a stiff breeze - even Elven combat characters are more resilient than this!)
Horrors on the other hand NEVER! want to be used in big units because their Lore is generally terrible on them. 10-18 strong at the most, (and even then, taking 18 is because you're being fluffy since Tzeentch's sacred number is 9), because you're looking at ensuring they get a specific spell and then letting their Lore Attribute build the unit for you.
Tzheralds fulfill the super important role of 'using up' spells the Pinkies don't want, and then providing the +1S to their spells.

Our real chaff/chaff cleaners would be Furies, solo/double Beasts, Seekers and occasionally Nurglings. Hounds are prone to getting spanked by RoC and when ambushing, they're cleaning up the backfield rather than chaffing/removing chaff.

Throwback wrote:
5. BotWD
This thing is stupid. One of the dumbest design choices I've ever seen, especially since it's never been errata'd.

Add to this Alarielle the Ever***** and her special banner. (on top of HE's just being really annoying to fight in general)

Even the Nurgle Wall of Death gets laughed at by a HE player running Banner of Averlorn Light Coven, due to their buffs being bubble cast at +8, while the Lv1/2 holding Banishment happily 6-dices it when needed for what's typically a bunch of S7/8 hits.
It's even more annoying because Alarielle Light Coven is the HE's best infantry-based build. (ie: I see it a lot!)



@Duke: I don't care about how many tournaments DoC win/place in. Simply winning tournaments is not the end-all-be-all of whether or not a book is good/bad.
It would also be interesting to see the specific lists that are placing. Odds are almost every single list is pretty much a 70%+ carbon copy of each other. Tournaments only tend to tell us what the hardest units/build(s) in each book are, not if that book is internally well balanced with plenty of options which can compete in a non-'uber competitive setting.

I'd rather have a middle of the pack or even lower-middle book that isn't basically forcing me into specific units/builds just to even put up a fight! Sure, Nurgle is absolute boss in this book, to the point you can't even really build a 'friendly' list that won't earn a boatload of hate from opponents, and Slaanesh has some tricks.
Tzeentch & Khorne are crap who struggle to do much outside of sticking to very one-dimentional set-ups.

It's a sad, sad day when a mono-Tzeentch list is forced to leave one of it's two staple units on the shelf because including them actually makes your list substantially weaker. (okay, Flamers work fine if everyone agrees to only ever play 1000pts or under and never bring WoC or Ogres or 1+ save Empire armies!)


Overall though, you could probably just all our book 'Warhammer: Beasts of Nurgle' because those b******* are just plain obnoxious for only 50pts.
Truth be told, they're almost on the same level of shenanigans as BotWD.