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I must be the unluckiest guy in the world vs Demons.

I played my afore-mentioned friends mono-khorne today. 3 turns in a row he rolled an 8 for magic dice. 1st time my WoC Slaanesh DP used his charmed shield. The second time he took 5 wounds from a Khorne fart.

I think I'm just going to flip out next time someone tells me that RoC is a net loss for demons.

In both games (1 vs my high elves and 1 vs my warriors) he rolled up hits on 10 times. (In game 1 he got a +1 ward save and in game 2 he got a 7.)

I don't know why the portalglyph wouldn't be a common option against cannon armies. Surely it's better than losing your 500 point lord. Furthermore, logic says don't take the point sink unless there is something equally/more important for your opponent to take out. Personally I take the fact that it costs ~400 points as basic as a strong indication that it's not meant to be used in every game.

IIRC, HoK are exactly as killable as HoS, execpt with lower iniative (T4 maybe?). Realistically though you want your champion to accept the challenge while you try to win through your RnF. 5++, fear and a locus help alot there.

I know horror units are better small, I guess I was really referring to slaanesh & khorne. Not sure about nurgle. I like big daemonette units conceptually, because they put out lots of ASF hits. I haven't done the maths though.

Skull cannons do flaming hits, right?

I don't think demonettes are ASF anymore, just AP.

yeah I meant with the locus

Throwback wrote:
I don't know why the portalglyph wouldn't be a common option against cannon armies. Surely it's better than losing your 500 point lord.

Because only a 500pt lord can take it and only a 500pt lord can carry it. It's 75pts. So you would need 2 giant lords and one is just a piggy back ride for another lord and the first one is gimped because he lost 75 of his points buying an item for the 2nd lord and is thus less powerful. That's a pretty horrible option. At least with 2 lords out and about, you have 2 cannon/spell targets and they have full points to spend on being offensive/defensive.

Edit: just putting a new question in YMTC

Ah I missed that, for some reason I thought any unit could carry it, thus giving your lord a safe way to move close to the enemy.

Throwback wrote:
I don't know why the portalglyph wouldn't be a common option against cannon armies. Surely it's better than losing your 500 point lord. Furthermore, logic says don't take the point sink unless there is something equally/more important for your opponent to take out. Personally I take the fact that it costs ~400 points as basic as a strong indication that it's not meant to be used in every game.

Vampire Lord routinely clock in at 380-400+ pts. WoC have insane options on the DP's. Ogre Tyrants ain't too cheap wither, while Slaan are also typically 'uber expensve. At least they're worth every single penny you pay.

Our DP's? Were sub-par in the last book, and actually got even worse in our new book!
Our Greaters? Sure they came down in pts which was bloody well needed, but they lost stats in certain cases AND their Gift options are gak outside of two staple set-ups.

Why does everyone else get their toys and we don't again? Oh right, cause there's no hate like Daemon hate and our book is a half-arsed clusterfeth.

Throwback wrote:
IIRC, HoK are exactly as killable as HoS, execpt with lower iniative (T4 maybe?). Realistically though you want your champion to accept the challenge while you try to win through your RnF. 5++, fear and a locus help alot there.

1. Any opponent with more than a couple brain cells to rub together will just use their rank-and-file to focus down the naked T3/5++ Herald. Even 6-9/S3 attacks are deadly to Slaany & Tzheralds! (though if a Tzherald is in combat, either you f'ed up, or you've already lost anyways)

2. The Khorne Locii are laughably overcosted, on a platform you can't reliably protect.

3. Fear is nowadays just an occasional perk. Yes it tests every round, but half the time it's dealing with IP and/or BSB re-rolls, while most armies have fear causers of their own now, making it much less special as an army-wide thing.

Throwback wrote:
I know horror units are better small, I guess I was really referring to slaanesh & khorne. Not sure about nurgle. I like big daemonette units conceptually, because they put out lots of ASF hits. I haven't done the maths though.

Nurgle w/Regen Herald is best kept 25-30, otherwise the unit becomes too unwieldy plus the fact that 'Bearers aren't meant to kill lots of stuff, but rather play 'unmovable anvil of doom'

Khorne is typically 'go big or go home' because everything about them is overcosted, while they die like flies. They also have the worst "God of..." rule, while Killing Blow is situational and far less spectacular in the new game of 'monsters everywhere!'

Slaanesh is better kept MMU at about 20'ish or so in order to make better use of that M6 to slip around to the flanks of opponents. (25-40+ is too big to do that)
Honestly, their trade-mark Locus is actually the Lesser Locus because well, it's simply a steal for it's paltry cost and lets them laugh at Dwellers & any of the 'hex stat + cast instant kill spell = profit' tactics.
ASF may seem the shizz, but you're still just S3 and have no way of buffing your strength outside of Mindrazor.

Horrors NEVER need to be bigger than 10-15 depending on how big the game is, (15 is slightly safer at 3k), or 18 if you're being fluffy and faithful to Lord Tzeentch. And the only Locus you'll ever consider is the Exalted one, the others force you to be in combat... which is some place Pinkies never want to be!

 DukeRustfield wrote:
626 has made it really clear that he will never say anything about the new DoC book is not horrible. Every single time someone comes up with any suggestion he will state the existence of some theoretical counter. Well no shiz, this is a game of rock scissors paper, every build/unit/meta has a counter(s). If it doesn't, it's broken and needs to be removed. But it's pretty rare you're going to fight someone with an exact counter to your exact strategy unless you tell them beforehand or you run the same thing every time at a local.

^^^ I agree with this guy.

 DukeRustfield wrote:

 DukeRustfield wrote:
626 has made it really clear that he will never say anything about the new DoC book is not horrible. Every single time someone comes up with any suggestion he will state the existence of some theoretical counter. Well no shiz, this is a game of rock scissors paper, every build/unit/meta has a counter(s). If it doesn't, it's broken and needs to be removed. But it's pretty rare you're going to fight someone with an exact counter to your exact strategy unless you tell them beforehand or you run the same thing every time at a local.

^^^ I agree with this guy.

If you actually read through his posts, I believe his stance is this:

The DoC book basically writes its own list. The internal balance is horrible, because some of the choices are nearly broken they're so good, while everything else is well below the power curve for what they cost or are capable of. I would much rather have options by toning down the stupidly good stuff and bumping up the rest.

...and while he may bleed this into other threads sometimes, this is a pretty legitimate thing to state for this thread in particular. Don't put words in his mouth.

A similar, if not identical, argument has been made about the DoC book post after post and not just in this thread.

E626 has been waving the Daemons boo-hoo flag for months. The fact is that nothing is going to get changed/ errata'd any time soon so he needs to get over it and either take the net list or build armies to his taste while accepting that they will probably lose more often than not (see: Beastmen, Tomb Kings, most OnG, Bretonnians, and Wood Elves).

He has the right to heir his grievances, especially in a thread related to the matter, but enough is enough.

Perhaps he can ask his local group to let him substitute his daemons for another army if buying one is not an option.

Pervertdhermit wrote:
A similar, if not identical, argument has been made about the DoC book post after post and not just in this thread.

E626 has been waving the Daemons boo-hoo flag for months. The fact is that nothing is going to get changed/ errata'd any time soon so he needs to get over it and either take the net list or build armies to his taste while accepting that they will probably lose more often than not (see: Beastmen, Tomb Kings, most OnG, Bretonnians, and Wood Elves).

He has the right to heir his grievances, especially in a thread related to the matter, but enough is enough.

Perhaps he can ask his local group to let him substitute his daemons for another army if buying one is not an option.

Nono, I get it. As I said, it definitely bleeds into other threads, and I've told him to stop before. But this is a thread asking about the state of DoC balance. Maybe I'm playing devil's advocate a bit here, but I get what he's saying and a lot of people are glossing over the fact that he does, in fact, think the book isn't entirely trash... it's just that the internal balance is trash. Just trying to keep everyone in perspective.

 Evertras wrote:
The DoC book basically writes its own list. The internal balance is horrible, because some of the choices are nearly broken they're so good, while everything else is well below the power curve for what they cost or are capable of. I would much rather have options by toning down the stupidly good stuff and bumping up the rest.

And if you've read my posts in the past, I've pointed out how he's wrong. How the entire WHFB gaming world has proven him wrong by winning tournaments using units, in quantities, that he considers useless or detrimental.

 DukeRustfield wrote:

 Evertras wrote:
The DoC book basically writes its own list. The internal balance is horrible, because some of the choices are nearly broken they're so good, while everything else is well below the power curve for what they cost or are capable of. I would much rather have options by toning down the stupidly good stuff and bumping up the rest.

And if you've read my posts in the past, I've pointed out how he's wrong. How the entire WHFB gaming world has proven him wrong by winning tournaments using units, in quantities, that he considers useless or detrimental.

I won't argue that! Just making sure the argument is clear for both sides. I'll stop playing pretend mod now, apologies for intruding.

Can someone explain to me the value of plague drones? I'm still struggling to see how they're a decent unit. Do people upgrade them? How many in a unit?

thelordcal wrote:
Can someone explain to me the value of plague drones? I'm still struggling to see how they're a decent unit. Do people upgrade them? How many in a unit?

They're a T5 combat unit with a permanent -1 to hit penalty. That also applies to range as they're skirmishers. They also have poisoned attacks. Yes, beasts can fight, but drones can bring the hurt more reliably. And they're MC. As for the upgrades and number, the standard is 5 with plague Proboscidea(no idea if that's right, blame autocorrect) and a standard and musician.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

thelordcal wrote:
Can someone explain to me the value of plague drones? I'm still struggling to see how they're a decent unit. Do people upgrade them? How many in a unit?

They're a T5 combat unit with a permanent -1 to hit penalty. That also applies to range as they're skirmishers. They also have poisoned attacks. Yes, beasts can fight, but drones can bring the hurt more reliably. And they're MC. As for the upgrades and number, the standard is 5 with plague Proboscidea(no idea if that's right, blame autocorrect) and a standard and musician.

3-4 is more manageable to move about, because they only have Hover which limits their movement quite a bit, and their bases are also a bit larger since they use the slightly elongated Monstrous Cav base.

Buying the Plague Proboscis is a no-brainer as it gives Poisoned Attacks to the Rot Flies, but Death's Heads & Venom Stings are 'meh'. (Death's Heads especially as it's a short-ranged, one-shot attack using BS3)
They're also one of the few units who get really good millage out of the Banner of E.Flame, which can make them really scary monster hunters, (flaming poison!), but makes them far worse vs. the likes of characters who can potentially get a 2++ vs. burny attacks.

 DukeRustfield wrote:

 Evertras wrote:
The DoC book basically writes its own list. The internal balance is horrible, because some of the choices are nearly broken they're so good, while everything else is well below the power curve for what they cost or are capable of. I would much rather have options by toning down the stupidly good stuff and bumping up the rest.

And if you've read my posts in the past, I've pointed out how she's wrong. How the entire WHFB gaming world has proven her wrong by winning tournaments using units, in quantities, that she considers useless or detrimental.

First of all, I fixed that for you.

Secondly, show me the 40-50+ player tournaments DoC have won using a Khorne or Tzeentzh heavy army. Show me the tournament where at least 50% of the total DoC armies are placing in the top 15.
Just because we have Khurgle & Caco bomb (which will earn you a punch in the throat) doesn't make our book all sunshine & roses. Overall Daemons have been showing pretty much average to poor in major events, especially non-comped ones.

By the sole argument of "it wins tournaments so shut up & L2P!lolz", you could then state that the new HE's suck and are under-powered because they're not winning tournaments. Yet overall, HE's are seen to place quite well, maybe not winning top spot, but you do see HE's a fair bit on or near the top tables.

This is why tournaments are a poor measuring stick, because they're only a small sample size, with typically wildly different controls. (is the event comp/non-comp, what type of comp is used, how much terrain & what type of terrain is used, etc...)
Compared in quality & ability to build different types of lists to the other 8th ed books, DoC got handed a polished turd.

It's also highly infuriating how the majority of the community seems overly gleeful at Daemons getting a sub-standard book with few options and horrid internal balance, all because of that one summer when every TFG jumped on the bandwagon... (and then left once DE's came out)

I played in a 40 player uncomped event this past weekend. Top 4 Armies:

Arkhan Chariot list took first
Double Stank Empire
Some other nasty Empire
Mono Nurgle daemons

All 4 of these had max battle points and Painting, and sportsmanship points settled the rest.

I took 6th overall with my TK.

50%(3/6) of Daemons were in the top 15 including one mono Khorne.

I played against 2 of the guys who were not in the top 15. one was a really hodge podged list with not a lot of focus. The other was an amazingly converted and painted Mononurgle army lacking a displayboard keeping him from the top 15. Mono Nurgle makes Arkhan real happy.

I see a lot of the same talk. People saying that Daemons are lack luster since their new Armybook.

My entire community was a 40k Community, but we started Escalation leagues to get into Fantasy, so we are all primarily new players. but so far out of 2 Escalation leagues I finished 2nd place in both, and won the Tournament in both.

The first league I did a very fluffy all Khorne Army. granted this was against all newbies to fantasy.

My second however included everyone from the first legaue and a few veteran players who joined our club....I played Primarily Tzeentch with a pinch of Khorne to fill in missing points.

I will say they are not for the Faint of Heart. my final 2 games in the last tournament each went to turn 6 and were not decided until the very last second. And the tides turned every turn back and forth.

And what I have noticed is that at certain point value games Daemons are almost impossible to win with. at 900 pts i could barely win, at 1200 I could not win at all. but at 1500 I could win again though in close games, but as our points get higher, the games become less close.

I originally picked up the Daemons as a time killer, as I wanted to get into Fantasy but couldnt bring myself to buy the god awful wood elf models. I planned on just having Khorne for some scenes i wanted in my display case, and now i find myself expanding to Nurgle in our T&T Campaign next month. Hands down picking up a Herald of Khorne to paint for a painting competition was the best Warhammer decision I made. I enjoy every aspect of my Daemons....Modeling, Painting, Games(however unpredictable they may be)........and most of all seeing the look on my opponents face when I roll and 11-12 on the Reign of Chaos Table!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:
The new book is a dysfunctional mess of lazy & horribly implemented rules.
You can really tell that the author didn't give a damn about what he was doing, and more or less trying to simply 'people please' which is an awful way to try and design something.

The Gift tables & Reign of Comedy tables are god-awful things.
The Gift tables are a complete joke when you compare them their 40k counterparts... There's no organisation at all, (making it impossible to gain decent protection for your very sub-standard Heroes in general), and too much duplication between Rewards & magic weapon options. (ie: 6 on Lesser Gift table = ASF, but you can also default to the ASF sword anyways?!)
Most of the time, RoC screws over the Daemon player more so than their opponent, and with it's ability to outright win you the game on a fluky roll, it really feels like cheating when it happens. Meanwhile, it drives most opponents up the wall because it adds so much additional rolling to the Magic Phase, and The Dark Prince Thirsts result, (roll of 8), is easily capable of wrecking any non-infantry block it hits & is especially harsh on the Daemon player's own Khornate units. (Ld test on 3D6, take a wound w/no armour save for every point you fail by...)

Unit wise, Core is a mess due to general overcosting and/or poorly thought-out designs... Plaguebearers are probably a point too cheap, but the others are pretty much shoehorned into specific unit sizes. Bloodletters are about the worst Core in the game by far, adding nothing that Daemonettes can't achive, while comparing the new Warlocks to Horrors makes Tzeentch simply cry.
Likewise across the rest of the book, the Specials & Rares tend to be either 'really good' or else just plain bad for their pts... Bloodcrushers for example are the worst Monstrous Cav in the game - anything they can do, Nurgle Drones do better, while Flesh Hounds/Seekers/Fiends & even Daemonettes w/+1M Banner are simply much more economical means of flanking.
Flamers are complete garbage, likely the outright worst unit in the entire game.
The Slaany Chariots were crap in the WD update and the book changed nothing about them.

The God of freaking magic now being limited to only 2 lores is a huge smack in the face, compounded by the fact that Metal synergises horribly with Lore of Tzeentch. (which is a pretty 'meh' lore for Daemons as well). On the other hand, both Nurgle & Slaanesh made out like freaking bandits with their lores, which at least saves the magic phase for those armies...
Tzeentch unfortunately simply can't compete in the one phase he should dominate.


Basically, Daemons players now play either 'The List' (25-30 Regen'ing Plaguebears w/Herald BSB, 2x 10 Horrors, 2x solo Beasts, 4-6 Beasts, 5x Furies, 2x Khannons + filler to taste), OR you run a Caco-bomb which is equally stupid, OR you run an Epidemius list of 'uber doom that will leave everyone you face even further cemented in their opinion that DoC players are all filthy, WAAC's donkeycaves.

But trying to run say a Khorne or Tzeentch themed list is about as effective as running a VC army that's just a Master Necro and 100% Zombies. Slaanesh is better off, able to do a good MSU build, but it's a super glass cannon... Even just general MSU Daemons while doable is still just a hugely inferior version of any Elven or WoC versions.
Then add-in the complete junk-shot that High Elves give Daemons...

Tomb Kings might have a book full of over-costed stuff, but at least there's some good synergies buried in there that a good player can exploit.
Daemons on the other hand got the complete shaft and are now pretty much pigeonholed into set lists to compete. (and using said lists only helps to further poke the wider community's Daemon hate in the knee.)

I can't disagree more, not only do I have good results with everything you say is bad and poor, but you forget the best part about this game.....its all about the dice rolls, you can mathlete all you want. but it will always be down to luck and chance.

Though I will agree that the heroes are substandard for their price, and I only run them to give a locus which in my opinion should be slightly cheaper since the hero himself is so weak.

And Nurgle may have gotten a little bit more love, but its due to a long term neglect that they had before.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Show me the tournament where at least 50% of the total DoC armies are placing in the top 15.

If any army in the game did this it would be indicative of a broken army. Within 50%, HALF, of the people at a tournament, there will be those who have never played at a tourney in their lives. Are brand new. Are ten years old. Are cracked out on ritalin and Red Bull. If you are practically guaranteed a spot in the top by fielding an army, that army needs to be curbstomped really bad.

 Vladamyr wrote:
I see a lot of the same talk. People saying that Daemons are lack luster since their new Armybook.

My entire community was a 40k Community, but we started Escalation leagues to get into Fantasy, so we are all primarily new players. but so far out of 2 Escalation leagues I finished 2nd place in both, and won the Tournament in both.

The first league I did a very fluffy all Khorne Army. granted this was against all newbies to fantasy.

My second however included everyone from the first legaue and a few veteran players who joined our club....I played Primarily Tzeentch with a pinch of Khorne to fill in missing points.

I will say they are not for the Faint of Heart. my final 2 games in the last tournament each went to turn 6 and were not decided until the very last second. And the tides turned every turn back and forth.

And what I have noticed is that at certain point value games Daemons are almost impossible to win with. at 900 pts i could barely win, at 1200 I could not win at all. but at 1500 I could win again though in close games, but as our points get higher, the games become less close.

I originally picked up the Daemons as a time killer, as I wanted to get into Fantasy but couldnt bring myself to buy the god awful wood elf models. I planned on just having Khorne for some scenes i wanted in my display case, and now i find myself expanding to Nurgle in our T&T Campaign next month. Hands down picking up a Herald of Khorne to paint for a painting competition was the best Warhammer decision I made. I enjoy every aspect of my Daemons....Modeling, Painting, Games(however unpredictable they may be)........and most of all seeing the look on my opponents face when I roll and 11-12 on the Reign of Chaos Table!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:
The new book is a dysfunctional mess of lazy & horribly implemented rules.
You can really tell that the author didn't give a damn about what he was doing, and more or less trying to simply 'people please' which is an awful way to try and design something.

The Gift tables & Reign of Comedy tables are god-awful things.
The Gift tables are a complete joke when you compare them their 40k counterparts... There's no organisation at all, (making it impossible to gain decent protection for your very sub-standard Heroes in general), and too much duplication between Rewards & magic weapon options. (ie: 6 on Lesser Gift table = ASF, but you can also default to the ASF sword anyways?!)
Most of the time, RoC screws over the Daemon player more so than their opponent, and with it's ability to outright win you the game on a fluky roll, it really feels like cheating when it happens. Meanwhile, it drives most opponents up the wall because it adds so much additional rolling to the Magic Phase, and The Dark Prince Thirsts result, (roll of 8), is easily capable of wrecking any non-infantry block it hits & is especially harsh on the Daemon player's own Khornate units. (Ld test on 3D6, take a wound w/no armour save for every point you fail by...)

Unit wise, Core is a mess due to general overcosting and/or poorly thought-out designs... Plaguebearers are probably a point too cheap, but the others are pretty much shoehorned into specific unit sizes. Bloodletters are about the worst Core in the game by far, adding nothing that Daemonettes can't achive, while comparing the new Warlocks to Horrors makes Tzeentch simply cry.
Likewise across the rest of the book, the Specials & Rares tend to be either 'really good' or else just plain bad for their pts... Bloodcrushers for example are the worst Monstrous Cav in the game - anything they can do, Nurgle Drones do better, while Flesh Hounds/Seekers/Fiends & even Daemonettes w/+1M Banner are simply much more economical means of flanking.
Flamers are complete garbage, likely the outright worst unit in the entire game.
The Slaany Chariots were crap in the WD update and the book changed nothing about them.

The God of freaking magic now being limited to only 2 lores is a huge smack in the face, compounded by the fact that Metal synergises horribly with Lore of Tzeentch. (which is a pretty 'meh' lore for Daemons as well). On the other hand, both Nurgle & Slaanesh made out like freaking bandits with their lores, which at least saves the magic phase for those armies...
Tzeentch unfortunately simply can't compete in the one phase he should dominate.


Basically, Daemons players now play either 'The List' (25-30 Regen'ing Plaguebears w/Herald BSB, 2x 10 Horrors, 2x solo Beasts, 4-6 Beasts, 5x Furies, 2x Khannons + filler to taste), OR you run a Caco-bomb which is equally stupid, OR you run an Epidemius list of 'uber doom that will leave everyone you face even further cemented in their opinion that DoC players are all filthy, WAAC's donkeycaves.

But trying to run say a Khorne or Tzeentch themed list is about as effective as running a VC army that's just a Master Necro and 100% Zombies. Slaanesh is better off, able to do a good MSU build, but it's a super glass cannon... Even just general MSU Daemons while doable is still just a hugely inferior version of any Elven or WoC versions.
Then add-in the complete junk-shot that High Elves give Daemons...

Tomb Kings might have a book full of over-costed stuff, but at least there's some good synergies buried in there that a good player can exploit.
Daemons on the other hand got the complete shaft and are now pretty much pigeonholed into set lists to compete. (and using said lists only helps to further poke the wider community's Daemon hate in the knee.)

I can't disagree more, not only do I have good results with everything you say is bad and poor, but you forget the best part about this game.....its all about the dice rolls, you can mathlete all you want. but it will always be down to luck and chance.

Though I will agree that the heroes are substandard for their price, and I only run them to give a locus which in my opinion should be slightly cheaper since the hero himself is so weak.

And Nurgle may have gotten a little bit more love, but its due to a long term neglect that they had before.

+1 Vlad, especially on "it's about the dice rolls" not playing Mathhammer.

"The List" might be the "best" demon list, but they have a full book of units to use and people are winning, losing, and having fun with them. It sucks to have a good book radically changed (I miss my last edition TK's), but your book is plenty viable.

 Vladamyr wrote:
its all about the dice rolls, you can mathlete all you want. but it will always be down to luck and chance.

Graaaah, no.

I need to vehemently disagree with this mindset. But before I do, let me clarify something: I don't necessarily agree with 626 or that the DoC is okay. I'm pretty ambivalent on that. I'm just picking out this one bit, and I apologize if I"m misconstruing, but this is a poisonous sort of mindset to have if you take this quote at face value.

I also want to clarify that I'm completely throwing out fluff and fun for the moment. This is purely about winning.

The game is not about luck and chance. Not directly, at least. The game is about dealing with luck and chance. You want to maximize your odds at every turn, and the right decision is always the one with the best odds for victory. You want to minimize risks and have contingency plans in place.

Why do you take a BSB in most armies? You want leadership rerolls. Why? Because you have a much better chance of a positive outcome. If it were all simply 'up to luck', why bother taking a BSB? Yes, you may still end up failing a roll, but the odds are MUCH less. The BSB minimizes risk and offers a contingency if your dice fail the first time.

Why would I bother taking halberds on my WoC warriors for +1 strength instead of a shield? The shield gives +1 armor, the halberds give +1 to wound and -1 to enemy armor (where applicable). I am playing the odds, even if in a fluke game that shield might have won me a battle.

If I'm faced with a charge where I need a 6 on the dice to make it, I will generally charge. If I roll a 5, does that mean I shouldn't have charged?

If I'm faced with a charge where I need a 12 on the dice to make it, I will generally not charge. If I roll a 12, does that mean I should have charged?

Just because something went wrong doesn't mean it wasn't the right decision, and just because something went well doesn't mean it was the correct choice.

Of course, there are situations where you do want to make that hail mary charge. I had a game where the only way I could win was by making a charge against a unit of chariots that was about to obliterate me, and I needed an 11. I made it. It was the correct choice at the time, because otherwise I was 100% dead instead of 90% dead, and I got very lucky. Yes, that happens. But the probability of that happening was very low, and I can't possibly go around relying on that. I'm sure we all have stories like that, but those are the exception, not the rule... and you should be looking at the rule if you want to talk about balance and correct choices both in list building and in games.

That came out a little convoluted. I need caffeine. Hopefully it made some sense, though. x.x

There's a big difference between making calculated odds-based decisions during the game and loudly proclaiming you cannot win with a unit because it costs 2 points more than you think it should or because it only has T6 6 wounds without access to an armor save.

Vlad is simply pointing out that you are not destined to lose because you are playing mono-tzeentch or with tomb kings. You still have generalship and putting your models on the table.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
There's a big difference between making calculated odds-based decisions during the game and loudly proclaiming you cannot win with a unit because it costs 2 points more than you think it should or because it only has T6 6 wounds without access to an armor save.

Vlad is simply pointing out that you are not destined to lose because you are playing mono-tzeentch or with tomb kings. You still have generalship and putting your models on the table.

If that's the intent, then I agree. There's always a chance, and list building is only one of the factors. But that's not 'dice deciding things', that's your decision making at work.

Going to agree with Evertras.
Obviously, the dice have the final say. But Warhammer is not "all about the dice rolls". It's all about how successfully your list and tactics stack the odds of those dice in your favor.

I think it's safe to say that the Daemon book has a bunch of problems.

I also think it's safe to say that it's not a completely lost cause, even without considering the select Awesome bits.

I'm pretty sure we can all agree that things like Daemonic Instability, the Reign of Chaos, and Warpflame are obviously not what they are supposed to be. And that the presence of Epidemius and Beasts of Nurgle does not mean that the rest of the book doesn't have problems.

The effects of randomness are greater the more opportunities and range of you are required to implement them.

DoC has more dice rolls than pretty much any other army doing the same things. That means they are inherently subject to more randomness than other armies.

Take that one Horror Herald ability where you roll at the beginning of the turn to determine their strength. Imagine if you had to do that with every unit for every attribute. THEN you could say the game was very much about dice rolls because your entire army would be shifty diametrically in power every single turn.

As it is, every unit has base attributes and rolls against a base table. So the effects of randomness overall are significantly diminished.

Warpsolution wrote:
Going to agree with Evertras.
Obviously, the dice have the final say. But Warhammer is not "all about the dice rolls". It's all about how successfully your list and tactics stack the odds of those dice in your favor.

I think it's safe to say that the Daemon book has a bunch of problems.

I also think it's safe to say that it's not a completely lost cause, even without considering the select Awesome bits.

I'm pretty sure we can all agree that things like Daemonic Instability, the Reign of Chaos, and Warpflame are obviously not what they are supposed to be. And that the presence of Epidemius and Beasts of Nurgle does not mean that the rest of the book doesn't have problems.

Ok let me correct my statement.....Not all about the dice rolls. HOWEVER!
-The best List can be undone by poor tactics or dice rolls.
-The best tactics can be undone by dice roll.
-The best dice rolls cannot make up for poor tactics or just lack of knowing how to use your own units.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
I must be the unluckiest guy in the world vs Demons.

I played my afore-mentioned friends mono-khorne today. 3 turns in a row he rolled an 8 for magic dice. 1st time my WoC Slaanesh DP used his charmed shield. The second time he took 5 wounds from a Khorne fart.

I think I'm just going to flip out next time someone tells me that RoC is a net loss for demons.

In both games (1 vs my high elves and 1 vs my warriors) he rolled up hits on 10 times. (In game 1 he got a +1 ward save and in game 2 he got a 7.)

Realm of chaos killed off my warpfire throwers quite a bit. Nice to know something so terrible can just randomly attack my single units and wipe them out while I don't even get to dispel it. Meh so what it hurts some of your units but you know that you'll face it every game. It's not like I have much ability to defend against it. To be fair I don't know how it totally works but it did kill off some of my lone weapons teams no problem and I couldn't do sh*t about it.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Thunderfrog wrote:
I must be the unluckiest guy in the world vs Demons.

I played my afore-mentioned friends mono-khorne today. 3 turns in a row he rolled an 8 for magic dice. 1st time my WoC Slaanesh DP used his charmed shield. The second time he took 5 wounds from a Khorne fart.

I think I'm just going to flip out next time someone tells me that RoC is a net loss for demons.

In both games (1 vs my high elves and 1 vs my warriors) he rolled up hits on 10 times. (In game 1 he got a +1 ward save and in game 2 he got a 7.)

Realm of chaos killed off my warpfire throwers quite a bit. Nice to know something so terrible can just randomly attack my single units and wipe them out while I don't even get to dispel it. Meh so what it hurts some of your units but you know that you'll face it every game. It's not like I have much ability to defend against it. To be fair I don't know how it totally works but it did kill off some of my lone weapons teams no problem and I couldn't do sh*t about it.

Here's the thing about the Reign of Comedy table. It was meant to supplement the DoC's non-existent Shooting phase and as a way to represent that a Daemonic incursion brings all kinds of crazy, insane warp-fueled madness with it.

The results for those who don't know are;
2. Daemon player takes army-wide Daemonic Instability tests on each units' base Leadership. (so no General's IP bonus)
- The second worst result for the DoC player honestly. No magic phase at all, and you can happily watch your majority Ld7 army explode. If it happens within the first turn or so, it can be game ending because it instantly obliterate your critical chaff units. (Furies are Ld2, solo Beasts likely take a couple of instant wounds, things like Khannons or Burning Chariots get gimped, etc...)

3. Random character w/Daemonic Instability rule take an instant Ld test and lose a wound with no saves allowed for every point failed.
- This is always horrific, as you're likely losing a critical Herald (and their Locus!), or else running the risk of nuking your 500+ pts General who's probably also your Lv4 wizard. Oh, and no Magic phase again.

4. All units/characters w/Daemonic Instability rule suffer -1 ward save.
- The outright worst result for the DoC player. Again, your Magic phase is poop'tastic, and you suddenly lose half your save! This is instant death for any Greater/Prince(s), while even normally solid units begin to melt away with frightening ease. About the only things that stay safe are Plaguies w/Regen Locus & Beasts who come with Regen.

5. Tzeentch Storm hits all enemy & Nurgle units not in combat on a 6.
- Small template that scatters D6", causes S4 Flaming Attacks hits. Meh for the most part. T3/5+ may not like it much, but overall the damage is fairly mediocre at best and Nurgle tends to laugh at it.

6. Nurgle Storm hits all enemy & Tzeentch units not in combat on a 6.
- D6+3/S3 hits, no armour saves allowed. Nasty to armoured units, especially Tzeentchian WoC units! This is great at zapping Burning Chariots & Tzeentch units in general due to them having only T3/4.

7. Nothing happens

8. Slaanesh storm hits all enemy & Khorne units not in combat on a 6.
- 3D6Ld test, take a wound with no armour save for each point failed. The harshest God storm for sure as even Ld10 isn't safe, and the no armour saves is just plain mean. It also quite funny how often this will cripple or outright kill Khannons, or nuke Hounds & 'Crushers units too.

9. Khorne storm hits all enemy & Slaanesh units not in combat on a 6.
- small template, scatters 3D6", worked out as a stone throw shot w/S9 + multiple wounds(D6) for the center hole/S3 otherwise. If this even hits anything it's a cause for mass celebration! Most useless God storm result there is, but at least the DoC player's Magic phase is a good one.

10. All models with Daemonic Instability gain +1 ward save.
- The outright best result. It even makes our over costed characters in general get the same level of ward save that everyone else can take!

11. Random wizard without Daemonic Instability rule takes a 3D6 Ld test, if failed turn into a naked Herald.
- Yes, this one sucks for the opponent. But outside of VC's/TK's, losing even your Lv4 to this isn't nearly the groin shot that the DoC player takes when the opposite result happens to them.
Hell, DoC themselves prove you don't need a Lv4 wizard to compete, so while the potential 300-350pts on average hit is nasty, it's not game ending. (or unit crippling like suddenly losing your Locus ability typically is)

12. Gain a unit of 2D6+3 Bloodletters/Horrors/Plaguebearers/Daemonettes.
- A fun result, but requires you to carry the extra models. Note too that units come with no upgrades, meaning there's a grey area surrounding weather or not Horrors can generate a spell or not. Not giving away VP's is a bit silly however, they should have at least given away 50 as a base.


Overall, the really bad results hurt the DoC worse because they're all catastrophic and remove the Magic phase. The top 3 results are all really good, but there's only the 10 your really ever hope for.
The God storms are annoying, but the worst result punches Khorne even further while the Tzeentch & Khorne especially tend to hit little to nothing. (or scatter insanely into combat and nail everyone!)

The idea of the chart is awesome, the execution however is lamentable as it tends to decide games all by itself.
At the very least, moving the thing to the Shooting phase would put a stop the unfair sodomising of one player in the Magic phase...

Your expectations of the chart are too high, I think.

You should hope or anything 5+, because it IS going to swing at all your opponents units and is great vs MSU. If might go off, it might not, but it is always going to roll on their units (5+) and MIGHT hit one of yours, based on your army comp.

Experiment 626 wrote:

11. Random wizard without Daemonic Instability rule takes a 3D6 Ld test, if failed turn into a naked Herald.
- Yes, this one sucks for the opponent. But outside of VC's/TK's, losing even your Lv4 to this isn't nearly the groin shot that the DoC player takes when the opposite result happens to them.
Hell, DoC themselves prove you don't need a Lv4 wizard to compete, so while the potential 300-350pts on average hit is nasty, it's not game ending. (or unit crippling like suddenly losing your Locus ability typically is)

Was this Errata'd cuz in Fantasy it only states a Leadership test, while in 40k it states a 3D6 Leadership Test.

i know in the FAQ they pointed out that they worded the God Storms poorly and specified that they hit all enemy units regardless.

to be completely honest i havent seen it change the outcome of many games. While rolling poorly for winds of magic is now more depressing.
-Rolling a 12 has helped me out a few times in extremely close games.
-Rolling an 11 is a Random wizard, and I have only successfully done this 2 a single lvl 1 wizard. (now if this is 3D6 leadership this may be different)

I do wish they would have made the God Storms a bit more similar i have never had a tzeentch or khorne result actually do any damage to me or an enemy as they always scatter off......nurgle and slannesh, however have caused decimation to either side.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Throwback wrote:

I know horror units are better small, I guess I was really referring to slaanesh & khorne. Not sure about nurgle. I like big daemonette units conceptually, because they put out lots of ASF hits. I haven't done the maths though.

I always enjoy games where I can put enough bloodletters on the field to put them 10 wide, as I find against certain armies a single attack from 2 ranks isnt enough to win combat enough of the time.

Pink Horrors though, I start with a unit of 20 to get my +4 to casting with them. if you keep you tzeentch wizards nearby this unit, those horrors can turn into a nightmare for your opponent. I have played games where it ended and i had more than 40 horrors on the table. and with the right loci, if you attempt to kill that big of a unit of horrors you may well cripple yourself in the process. (friendly games where people allow me to use dice at the end of pink horrors to add mroe ranks, as I am still building up the army)

I will get back to you on the Plague Bearers, using them for the first time later this week. starting with a unit of 10 +a herald, and a nearby GUO.

as to Daemonetes, they do get the ASF special rule, as long as your not stupid, you will always take this Locus. but their extra attacks alone put them on par with bloodletters, with always strikes first IMHO i think they are better.