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Do grav guns bypass vehicle cover or not? Or do we know?

Martel732 wrote:
Do grav guns bypass vehicle cover or not? Or do we know?

Forum search is your friend.

Short answer is; Yes. Disputably. As an Eldar player, I let it be so, and don't argue. Marine players still need all the help they can get against Eldar.

Martel732 wrote:
C:SM assault marines don't get meltas.

this is why I love my BA

Belly wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Do grav guns bypass vehicle cover or not? Or do we know?

Forum search is your friend.

Short answer is; Yes. Disputably. As an Eldar player, I let it be so, and don't argue. Marine players still need all the help they can get against Eldar.

I've looked at a lot of forums. I was just wondering if someone had heard something I hadn't.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Another Eldar player shaking my head at this whole thread. I only lose wave serpents to marines from the one thing that Marines already have, the perfect tool for killing wave serpents, and they get it for free: krak grenades.

Krak grenades don't care about the serpent shield because they hit rear armor.

Krak grenades don't care about the AR12, because they hit rear armor.

Krak grenades don't care about cover saves or holofields--they bypass both.

Krak grenades don't care about disordered charge, so you might as well charge everything.

Krak grenades hit on 3s, damage 50% of the time, and don't care about Eldar WS or initiative.

What's the problem?

A bike army especially should be able to quickly close with a 9-gravtank army. That's a huge footprint, and he's got no wraithknights to protect his tanks from assault.

You interdict where he wants to run away to with your own models, herd him up against the table edge or corner, and boom. You don't need powerfists or anything fancy--just lots of bodies to soak up hits and block off sections of the board to limit his maneuver options. Your existing army should be able to do it. Especially if you have Khan (you said WS, right?) and can get a jump on your interdiction moves with the scout movement.

Good comment as always. Nine heavy skimmers is a bit too much. The answer could be to take 10 men Guardian squads and larger DA squads and let them disembark for shooting purposes when the Bikes are close enough.

Belly wrote:


It's a good idea, but clever tactics by a Mech Eldar played will completely mitigate the idea.

Serpents/Eldar Mech can flatout 18'. That means a 30' movement, with a 3+ jink in your turn. Drop-pods and Deep strikers don't mean too much when I can put that kind of distance between some footsloggers and my tanks.

Although we agree that bikes are the best solution ultimately, I just wanted to point out that the 30" move on paper is deceptive.

It's actually a 12" movement in the movement phase, followed by a flatout of up to 18". But unlike flyers, fast skimmers are limited in that they have to land somewhere within 12" at the end of the movement phase--they don't get their whole movement all in one burst. So if there's something in the way at the start of their movement phase, that restricts their movement.

So that's the key to interdicting. If you put your own models in the spot where the wave serpent wants to land--which will be somewhere within 12" of it--then that wave serpent has only bad choices. It's either going to have to move away (and can only do this so many times before running into the table edge) or settle for less than 12" of movement toward the threatening unit, then hope to either wipe out the unit with shooting or flatout past the unit--which both means that it isn't shooting that turn and that it probably won't be able to get more than 12" away and will still be within reasonable charge range the next turn, even for an infantry unit.

But bikes are better both at interdicting and at catching a skimmer that's trying to boost past. The only thing bikes aren't better at than infantry marines is surviving massed str7 firepower, point-for-point.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

Belly wrote:


It's a good idea, but clever tactics by a Mech Eldar played will completely mitigate the idea.

Serpents/Eldar Mech can flatout 18'. That means a 30' movement, with a 3+ jink in your turn. Drop-pods and Deep strikers don't mean too much when I can put that kind of distance between some footsloggers and my tanks.

Although we agree that bikes are the best solution ultimately, I just wanted to point out that the 30" move on paper is deceptive.

It's actually a 12" movement in the movement phase, followed by a flatout of up to 18". But unlike flyers, fast skimmers are limited in that they have to land somewhere within 12" at the end of the movement phase--they don't get their whole movement all in one burst. So if there's something in the way at the start of their movement phase, that restricts their movement.

So that's the key to interdicting. If you put your own models in the spot where the wave serpent wants to land--which will be somewhere within 12" of it--then that wave serpent has only bad choices. It's either going to have to move away (and can only do this so many times before running into the table edge) or settle for less than 12" of movement toward the threatening unit, then hope to either wipe out the unit with shooting or flatout past the unit--which both means that it isn't shooting that turn and that it probably won't be able to get more than 12" away and will still be within reasonable charge range the next turn, even for an infantry unit.

But bikes are better both at interdicting and at catching a skimmer that's trying to boost past. The only thing bikes aren't better at than infantry marines is surviving massed str7 firepower, point-for-point.

All very valid points that I failed to mention Forcing a player to make that flat-out move is half the battle won aswel, as those skimmers arn't going to be doing anything for that turn (short of having a CTM)

Martel732 wrote:
Nah, too many are facing multiple Taudar/Tau-Tau/Eldtau in a row. GW needs to think before they publish.

I agree.
In my imaginary utopian view of the world, I would like to think that the "SoB" and "Codex: Inquisition" are attempts to give boosts in power to the loyalist armies to even out the playing field.
Sadly, I think the reality is that we are just moving from one insane out of balance issue to the next.

40k is not alone in this problem. Warmachine suffers from similar problems -- just in a different way. There are some warcasters that are horribad. If your not using models from the latest supplement your at a disadvantage. They just give a few units to every army with each supplement.

Fantasy is in bad straights too. Ogres will roflstomp orks all day long, and twice on sunday!

Heck, even MMOs are constantly tweaking to find balance, and they can alter their entire game with the drop of a patch -- unlike miniature games that need to wait for the codex rotation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Another Eldar player shaking my head at this whole thread. I only lose wave serpents to marines from the one thing that Marines already have, the perfect tool for killing wave serpents, and they get it for free: krak grenades.

Darn skippy! If you ever have the chance to assault wave serpents, your ahead of the game.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
A bike army especially should be able to quickly close with a 9-gravtank army. That's a huge footprint, and he's got no wraithknights to protect his tanks from assault.

Remember the bike army will probably have hit and run, so any surviving bikes will probably just bounce out of the wraithknight.

I can tell you from my practical experience that 30 bikes is about all you can get on the table without serious spacing issues. The problem is that 9 serpents can remove 30 bikes over the space of 2 turns.

A serpent player should be more scared of the ~100 marine bodies on the table with hidden LCs inside.

Naw wrote:
Just against serpent spam, with Iron Hands tactics:

Chapter master with bike, AA, Shield eternal, TH, auspex
goes with
5 bikes with 2 grav and combi grav

Chapter master with bike, AA, Storm Shield, TH, auspex
goes with
5 bikes with 2 grav and combi grav

2x
5 scouts with land speeder storm w/ assault cannon
-> outflank and tool up however you want

3x
Storm talon with skyhammer missiles

3x
Tri-LC predator

Should be fun at least

You could change one of the Chapter Masters for a captain and take a command squad on bike with a narthecium for feel no pain. Take Iron Hands chapter tactics and you will have it will not die as well.

I won't act like I have *the* solution to this, but I have a fair amount of experience against these serpent-spam armies with my (admittedly, fairly new) Ultras + White Scars list. I have yet to lose to serpent spam.

Please note that I'm not proclaiming this list will cure all ills, and I'm sure it will change a bit before tournament season starts up again. Just trying to share my experiences to (potentially) help others

Here's the list I've been using:

1750 Points

Tiggy

10x Tactical Marines w/ Plasma, Combi-Plasma, Multi-Melta // Rhino
10x Tactical Marines w/ Plasma, Combi-Plasma, Multi-Melta // Rhino

Stormtalon w/ Assault Cannon, Skyhammer Missiles
Stormtalon w/ Assault Cannon, Skyhammer Missiles

8x Devastators w/ 4x Las Cannons
Thunderfire Cannon
Thunderfire Cannon

***White Scars Allies

Chapter Master w/ Eternal Shield, Artificer Armor, Power Fist, Auspex, Bike

8x Bikes w/ 2x Grav Guns, Combi-Grav, Multi-Melta Attack Bike

The Plan:

I like to put Tiggy with the Devs. He very nearly always gets the "Ignore Cover" power. The Devs hide behind a hill so that the Serpents can't see them Turn 1.

Rhinos and bikes also hide as well as they can.

Turn 1, Serpents shoot stuff at me, and I generally get sad as they kill more than I think they should. That said, they aren't generally capable of killing all of any single unit other than an "entire" rhino and a few tacs from it.

My Turn 1, I use the Devastator option for my Ultras, cast "Ignore Cover" and Prescience on the Devs, pop up and shoot a Wave Serpent. I also Turbo the bikes and the remaining Rhinos (if any) 24" and 18" respectively, spreading the bikes out so the Serpents won't be able to play keep-away next turn.

The Serpents are then faced with a dilemma: do they kill the Bikes and Rhinos but leave the Devs to continue picking off the Serpents one by one? Or, do they shoot the Devs and allow my bikes and Tacs to live?

Whatever they do, my Chapter Master nearly always lives, and next turn, I kill *at least* two more Serpents with the Stormtalons + Charging Chapter Master (use his Auspex to let the Tacs shoot a Serpent better too) + Devs + remaining Tacs + Bikes if I feel like separating them to charge something else.

Thunderfires are meanwhile destroying whatever was inside the Serpents, or putting hits on Serpents if needed.

This isn't to say the game will be easy, exactly, especially if they also have 3x Fire Prisms, but the Bikes can shoot/charge the vehicles well enough, and have a 3+ cover save.

This is also assuming eldar get first turn. If they don't, they get even fewer rounds until I'm up in their business.

Keep in mind also, that even if I fail to kill all Serpents and lose all my bikes and Devs by Turn 3, my Tacticals will be holding objectives, which the remaining 2-3 Serpents will have a hard time removing, especially if they have been forced to stay hunkered in a corner to stay away from my army. They'll have 2 or 3 turns to kill a bunch of marines *and* get their Dire Avengers onto objectives, while worrying about Thunderfires/Stormtalons all the while.

Also keep in mind that while Serpents do have a lot of firepower, even 6 of them combined will only end up killing an average of 10-11 marines or so in a single round of shooting (even fewer if they're bikes). Once you kill two or three of them, their massed firepower is even less effective. Just pray that if you have to go second, you have something to hide your devs behind

I hope this helps at least a little. I'm really not of the opinion that 9 vehicles is going to win all their games in a big tournament anyway - I'd be far more nervous if my opponent brought 6 Serpents + 3 squads of Spiders/Hawks.

What if they assault your bikes with a Wraithknight?

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

Belly wrote:


It's a good idea, but clever tactics by a Mech Eldar played will completely mitigate the idea.

Serpents/Eldar Mech can flatout 18'. That means a 30' movement, with a 3+ jink in your turn. Drop-pods and Deep strikers don't mean too much when I can put that kind of distance between some footsloggers and my tanks.

Although we agree that bikes are the best solution ultimately, I just wanted to point out that the 30" move on paper is deceptive.

It's actually a 12" movement in the movement phase, followed by a flatout of up to 18". But unlike flyers, fast skimmers are limited in that they have to land somewhere within 12" at the end of the movement phase--they don't get their whole movement all in one burst. So if there's something in the way at the start of their movement phase, that restricts their movement.

So that's the key to interdicting. If you put your own models in the spot where the wave serpent wants to land--which will be somewhere within 12" of it--then that wave serpent has only bad choices. It's either going to have to move away (and can only do this so many times before running into the table edge) or settle for less than 12" of movement toward the threatening unit, then hope to either wipe out the unit with shooting or flatout past the unit--which both means that it isn't shooting that turn and that it probably won't be able to get more than 12" away and will still be within reasonable charge range the next turn, even for an infantry unit.

But bikes are better both at interdicting and at catching a skimmer that's trying to boost past. The only thing bikes aren't better at than infantry marines is surviving massed str7 firepower, point-for-point.

This is exactly what what the list is about. So whatever the LotD cant get the infiltraded scouts with the meltabomb can go after. As for why using only a multimelta and not a meltagun i find that the range of the latter is rather limiting for only one glance to the ws, and you need every single point in that list due to the high cost of the units. The real problem im trying to solve is limiting the luck factor as much as possible, by say taking some drop pods with beacons to mitigate the chance of scattering badly without having to drop their number below the critical mass (but first i must find what that mass is).

And yes bikes maybe better but everybody is doing that, so...

Martel732 wrote:
What if they assault your bikes with a Wraithknight?

Then... overwatch with Grav and punch it a few times with the Chapter Master, followed by a Hit and Run? Wraithknights don't like White Scars bikers, even a little bit.

Yeah, I guess you could do that. Forgot about hit and run.

But the right answer is to dust the bike squad. Without that bike squad, the Eldar can pick apart the rest of the list. Warp spiders can take care of the devs.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, I guess you could do that. Forgot about hit and run.

But the right answer is to dust the bike squad. Without that bike squad, the Eldar can pick apart the rest of the list. Warp spiders can take care of the devs.

Eh heh heh. You say that, but it doesn't work that way. Bikes take at least 2 turns of shooting at to kill all of, and that's from the entire army. Spiders can only kill the Devs if they're unmolested by Thunderfires and (if it takes more than 1 turn) the Stormtalons. If they want to drop in and shoot the Devs, they can feel free to try - they'll almost certainly have a 4+ cover (fortifications from TFC) and 11 wounds. Not sure even 3 Spider squads could do that in a turn, though if they did that, I would question my opponent's judgement severely.

I'm not saying that the Eldar auto-lose to my list, but I will also say that I've played against a few of the local 'top' players with serpent spam, and it's never been as easy a decision as "kill the bikes, then win." A couple have tried, and discovered that that course of action has its own consequences.

I have heard legion of the damned are a good counter, especially when combined with vulkan.

Serpents can't hurt a bastion.
3 centurians with TL LC, ML, and tiggy giving ignore cover would sort that right now.