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nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet that is no longer a normal shooting attack, is it?

Treating it as a NORMAL shooting attack is fairly easy - pretend it is the shooting phase, and carry on. As soon as you say you cannot use THIS shooting phase rule, you are inconsistent if you then only allow models to fire one weapon (2 if MC)

PrinceRaven wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
So I can Run during Overwatch if it's a Shooting Phase, right?

It's not a shooting phase, it's a "normal shooting attack", so you can If you have a special rule that allows you to run during a shooting attack.

I agree with both of these stances. I would add that I'm fine with treating it as 'a min- shooting phase' if that helps people conceptualize it as that actually does fit but I would add to that it is 'only in regards to the shooting attack' which is the proper context given in the overwatch rules. No running, the DoM will not suck more of your soul out, etc.

As I would say it- The shooting attack is preformed as if it were the shooting phase.

There seems to be no concensous yet, the poll is at 50-50.

You won't get a consensus on this until GW FAQ it, because the people on both sides of this one each think that the rules are self-evident.

 insaniak wrote:
You won't get a consensus on this until GW FAQ it, because the people on both sides of this one each think that the rules are self-evident.

It's kind of a conflict between RAW and Rules as Perceived. This is probebly the reason that in the first tau codex they had to put a clarification "The plasma rifle does not Get Hot.", because most people would assume it does. RAW is that case stated that it would not, but all peoples experiences with plasma is that it did. In this case RAW says that abilities do not affect, but peoples experiences say that abilities always affect shooting.
I don't think that abilities do affect it, but I would love it if they errataed it so it did, that would make my tau army that much better.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It's kind of a conflict between RAW and Rules as Perceived.

It's really not. It's just a conflict between how some people read the RAW, and how some other people read the RAW.

RAW is that case stated that it would not, but all peoples experiences with plasma is that it did. In this case RAW says that abilities do not affect, but peoples experiences say that abilities always affect shooting.

This is not the case. It is about applying the rules consistently. If you rule that multi trackers don't work then you HAVE to also rule that the firing 1 weapon per shooting phase restriction also doesn't work. It causes lots of other issues as all the shooting rules refer to the shooting phase.

The real issue is that a "normal shooting attack" is not clearly defined. Some people concentrate on the wording of the abilities and wargear but ignore the similar or indeed identical wording on other standard shooting rules that they assume must also apply. So those on the side of these abilities working are just consistently ruling that identical worded rules interact with overwatch in identical ways. Whilst others assume that "normal shooting attack" means that all these shooting phase rules apply but arbitrarily decide that other identically worded rules do not.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with FlingitNow.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with FlingitNow.

really you shouldn't have a mind set that he/she will always be incorrect on any given ruling even if you find yourself disagreeing a lot, everyone is entitled to an opinion on something but the stumbling block is that they should also be willing to accept when it is an incorrect assertion.

with regards to the post, to people stating that a normal shooting attack is not effected by rules that govern the shooting phase, can I ask you what is a normal shooting attack?

if you can provide a page reference number in the BRB I would appreciate it as I am incapable of finding one it would seem.

That was just a joke, I've actually found myself agreeing with FlingitNow on several occasions beforehand, we just also happen to disagree often.

Yes a "normal shooting attack" isn't defined by the rulebook, so in this case RAI can be useful. I say that a normal shooting attack is one made by the rules for making a shooting attack in the shooting phase, does anyone dispute this?

Yeah I took no offense at Prince Ravens comment. I think the 3 of us agree the issue is fundamentally they don't tell us what "normal shooting attack" means. Prince Raven's definition seems the most obvious (and the one I'd use).

 insaniak wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It's kind of a conflict between RAW and Rules as Perceived.

It's really not. It's just a conflict between how some people read the RAW, and how some other people read the RAW.

It's a conflict between RAW (what it is) and how people PERCIVE the rules. I was just commenting on how the rules are PERCEIVED. I think you misunderstood me there.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

It's a conflict between RAW (what it is) and how people PERCIVE the rules. I was just commenting on how the rules are PERCEIVED. I think you misunderstood me there.

No, I understood you. I just disagree... Because which interpretation here is correct is entirely down to perception. The conflict isn't between RAW and perception, because both sides perceive their interpretation as RAW. The conflict is between two different interpretations of the RAW.

 insaniak wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

It's a conflict between RAW (what it is) and how people PERCIVE the rules. I was just commenting on how the rules are PERCEIVED. I think you misunderstood me there.

No, I understood you. I just disagree... Because which interpretation here is correct is entirely down to perception. The conflict isn't between RAW and perception, because both sides perceive their interpretation as RAW. The conflict is between two different interpretations of the RAW.

That makes more seance, I thought I just didn't say it in a way that was understandable.

Co'tor Shas do you believe that the restriction to firing just one weapon shouldn't stand? If it should why would it stand and not the multitracker? Using the words of those 2 rules please explain your standpoint.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Co'tor Shas do you believe that the restriction to firing just one weapon shouldn't stand? If it should why would it stand and not the multitracker? Using the words of those 2 rules please explain your standpoint.

... What?

So you think multitrakers don't work right? Due to the wording "Shooting phase" right?

Given that the wording on only shooting 1 weapon in the weapons section page 51 "if a model has more than one Shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot - he cannot fire both in the same Shooting phase" emphasis mine. So if you discount one rule for the Shooting phase wording surely you agree you must discount the other? If not why not?

I think he was arguing that they did work....

No he's definitely stated that they don't:

"I don't think that abilities do affect it, but I would love it if they errataed it so it did, that would make my tau army that much better."

apologies, thought he has changed his opinion, carry on

Yeah, I don't think they would work, but I would love it if they did.

From what I'm getting is its a damned if you do, damned if you don't in the rules.

If you don't allow for things to apply things that apply in the shooting phase for overwatch, you can fire any number of weapons from any models.

If you do allow for rules that apply in the shooting phase, you can apply multitrackers and MC, but not the other tau wargear because they disallow use in overwatch.

I do agree, things must be applied consistently. You can't just arbitrarily apply or not apply a rule.

So where is the 'damned if you do'coming from, then? Allowing multi trackers in overwatch doesn't break the game, at least from a mechanical stand point.

Well without a spelled out definition, thinking critically, what could a normal shooting attack be referring to?

I don't generally say this on dakka but come on... The obvious answer is obvious.
-When does shooting normally happen? The Shooting Phase.
-What are the normal shooting rules? The ones in the Shooting Phase section.
-How many weapons can a model normally shoot? Check shooting phase rules and SR's
-Etc.

Even in RAW there is room for interpretation and some basic assumption of intent. The general assumption that the rules are intended to have an effect is often paramount in a RAW debate and is quite accepted as a basic premise that should be accounted for as fact. With that in mind dismissing 'normal shooting' as undefined is not acceptable as it would cause Overwatch to be dysfunctional. No rules for normal shooting in this system would equal no Overwatch due to no permission to shoot(permissive rule set). I don't know why everyone is going on about shooting all their weapons and such. If the shooting phase rules do not apply as if in the shooting phase there is no permission to shoot.

That normal shooting is not specifically defined does not mean it is completely undefined. We are left to take the words at face value, look at sentence structure and determine meaning. So I repeat, think critically and rationally about what normal shooing is and you'll have your answer.

If you are in a car simulator and I tell you to 'drive normally' do you suddenly not know what I mean because you are not in a car? No, you know exactly what I mean and what to do(assuming you indeed know how to drive a car already). Normal driving is done in a car just like normal shooting is done in the shooting phase. This is not rocket science. This is 'normal English' and should not require several pages on dakka to comprehend a not-specifically-defined concept of 'normal'. It is often used in 'normal' communication and we should all know what it means.

Normal shooting is done in the shooting phase, proceed the same way for Overwatch in the assault phase. That is all.

 insaniak wrote:
So where is the 'damned if you do'coming from, then? Allowing multi trackers in overwatch doesn't break the game, at least from a mechanical stand point.

I was more referring to if you allow shooting phase rules or not, you would be able to fire multiple weapons. Since both the permission to fire only one weapon, and use multitrackers, are tied to the shooting phase.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Yeah, I don't think they would work, but I would love it if they did.

So do you believe any model can fire all its weapons in the shooting phase? If not why not?

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Yeah, I don't think they would work, but I would love it if they did.

So do you believe any model can fire all its weapons in the shooting phase? If not why not?

I think that any model without special wargear or rules (such as multitrackers or being a MC) can fire one weapon in the shooting phase, because it is in the rulebook. I also think that those same abilities do not affect overwatch if they say "Shooting phase" instead of something along the lines of whenever it can shoot.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Yeah, I don't think they would work, but I would love it if they did.

So do you believe any model can fire all its weapons in the shooting phase? If not why not?

I think that any model without special wargear or rules (such as multitrackers or being a MC) can fire one weapon in the shooting phase, because it is in the rulebook. I also think that those same abilities do not affect overwatch if they say "Shooting phase" instead of something along the lines of whenever it can shoot.

So your saying a Space Marine should be able to shoot his Bolter, Bolt Pistol, and throw a Grenade in overwatch?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Yeah, I don't think they would work, but I would love it if they did.

So do you believe any model can fire all its weapons in the shooting phase? If not why not?

I think that any model without special wargear or rules (such as multitrackers or being a MC) can fire one weapon in the shooting phase, because it is in the rulebook. I also think that those same abilities do not affect overwatch if they say "Shooting phase" instead of something along the lines of whenever it can shoot.

So you believe Crisis suits can fire all their weapons in overwatch? And that a Space marine can fire his bolter and bolt pistol in overwatch? If not why not?

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Yeah, I don't think they would work, but I would love it if they did.

So do you believe any model can fire all its weapons in the shooting phase? If not why not?

I think that any model without special wargear or rules (such as multitrackers or being a MC) can fire one weapon in the shooting phase, because it is in the rulebook. I also think that those same abilities do not affect overwatch if they say "Shooting phase" instead of something along the lines of whenever it can shoot.

So you believe Crisis suits can fire all their weapons in overwatch? And that a Space marine can fire his bolter and bolt pistol in overwatch? If not why not?

No, because it is the Assault phase not the Shooting phase. I'm not sure how it is worded (I don't have my rulebook with me), but I think they are limited to the usual one weapon.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Yeah, I don't think they would work, but I would love it if they did.

So do you believe any model can fire all its weapons in the shooting phase? If not why not?

I think that any model without special wargear or rules (such as multitrackers or being a MC) can fire one weapon in the shooting phase, because it is in the rulebook. I also think that those same abilities do not affect overwatch if they say "Shooting phase" instead of something along the lines of whenever it can shoot.

So you believe Crisis suits can fire all their weapons in overwatch? And that a Space marine can fire his bolter and bolt pistol in overwatch? If not why not?

No, because it is the Assault phase not the Shooting phase. I'm not sure how it is worded (I don't have my rulebook with me), but I think they are limited to the usual one weapon.

That is actually the crux of the problem. You are only limited to firing one weapon in the "Shooting Phase". If we prevent rules that only work in the "Shooting Phase" from affecting Overwatch, then the only thing that limits the number of weapons you can shoot is also disregarded.