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 Kriswall wrote:
In this instance, you're not shooting at the Landraider. You're shooting at the unit inside. If it takes a couple of shots to take out the Land Raider, so be it. Once it's down, the rest of the hits strike the original target. That's how I read Void Shield Zones to work.

So how does it work? Say you get 7 S6 Ap5 hits an a guardsman unit out in the open behind a void shield. You roll 6,6,5,4,2,2,2 what goes onto the guardsman and how?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

fossing wrote:
Haha this is so absurd.
Cthululsspy, explain to me: How would you play void shields ?

Look at me i take this super heavy tank, i place it under 3 void shield generators with 3 projected void shields each. You now need to have 9 units with sufficient anti armor capability to knock down my void shields. After that you need to have enough anti armor firepower to knock out my super heavy.
I now win all games, this is so awesome! The best protection in The game for 340 points, whats not to like!
Hahahahaha

Sounds wrong to you, yes?

Yep. Don't forget though that this is from the same company who made it possible to get a 2++ rerollable. It's GW; anything is possible.

Besides, I play necrons. My weakest gun can kill your void shields

So because GW has made mistakes that made something pretty imba possible, you are now allowed to misinterpret every rule, to suit your own ideas of what should be powerfull ? Schoolyard logic ftw lol


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 FlingitNow wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
In this instance, you're not shooting at the Landraider. You're shooting at the unit inside. If it takes a couple of shots to take out the Land Raider, so be it. Once it's down, the rest of the hits strike the original target. That's how I read Void Shield Zones to work.

So how does it work? Say you get 7 S6 Ap5 hits an a guardsman unit out in the open behind a void shield. You roll 6,6,5,4,2,2,2 what goes onto the guardsman and how?

This is why you resolve one hit at a time, because doing otherwise would make it extremely confusing, and would rely on he shooting player saying: " oh these dices here, that penetrated your armor were The first shots, and these hits that are 2's those are The ones that wounds your guardsmen"

Haha this is so absurd.
Cthululsspy, explain to me: How would you play void shields ?

Look at me i take this super heavy tank, i place it under 3 void shield generators with 3 projected void shields each. You now need to have 9 units with sufficient anti armor capability to knock down my void shields. After that you need to have enough anti armor firepower to knock out my super heavy.
I now win all games, this is so awesome! The best protection in The game for 340 points, whats not to like!
Hahahahaha

Sounds wrong to you, yes?

You don't need 9 units necessarily as soon as you're shooting multiple VSG you get to randomise hits between the various shields. This is how they work looking at the rules. They do need more clarification.


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This is why you resolve one hit at a time,

You have no rules permission to do this though. So you've created a rule out of thin air to support your interpretation of "further hits strike the original target".

I know that you dont ned 9 units, you need one unit with the capability to punch through max 3 shields to hit a target shielded by a void shield generator.
Rules are pretty clear to me, it is understandable that other people might interpret the written word differently, just look at The bibel and koran, all kinds of interpretations out there, some are sound, and some are really far out..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Haha this is so absurd.
Cthululsspy, explain to me: How would you play void shields ?

Look at me i take this super heavy tank, i place it under 3 void shield generators with 3 projected void shields each. You now need to have 9 units with sufficient anti armor capability to knock down my void shields. After that you need to have enough anti armor firepower to knock out my super heavy.
I now win all games, this is so awesome! The best protection in The game for 340 points, whats not to like!
Hahahahaha

Sounds wrong to you, yes?

You don't need 9 units necessarily as soon as you're shooting multiple VSG you get to randomise hits between the various shields. This is how they work looking at the rules. They do need more clarification.


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This is why you resolve one hit at a time,

You have no rules permission to do this though. So you've created a rule out of thin air to support your interpretation of "further hits strike the original target".

I have not created this rule out of The air, thank you very much. I play warhammer 40k 6th edition and my basis for understanding new special rules and units i find in The 6th edition rulebook, untill such a time it gets replaced by a 7th edition rulebook.

Edit: damn ipad auto correct in danish

So please quote the rule where you are allowed to resolve hits one at a time. Because I can't find it in my 6th Edition Rulebook nor in the Void Shield Projection rules. Should be straight forward enough as you claim it is there.

Well, I sent an email to that GW FAQ address. Hopefully they'll answer.

It seems like GW is using Void Shields as ablative "hull points" for any unit under them, requiring the attacker to ablate the "shield points" first before damage can be applied to the target. If that is the case, any additional hits after the "shield points" are removed would carry over to the target. However, if each Void Shield is treated as a separate "vehicle" with a single "hull point", then any additional hits are lost as soon as that Shield drops

So, are Void Shields ablative "shield points" that are "added" to the target, or are they individual "structure points" that must be removed separate from the target?

Answering that question will solve the argument.

As a totally different question, can we target the Void Shield Generator as its own unit? Kill the shields, kill the generator, wipe the rest out with D's?

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It seems like GW is using Void Shields as ablative "hull points" for any unit under them, requiring the attacker to ablate the "shield points" first before damage can be applied to the target. If that is the case, any additional hits after the "shield points" are removed would carry over to the target. However, if each Void Shield is treated as a separate "vehicle" with a single "hull point", then any additional hits are lost as soon as that Shield drops

So, are Void Shields ablative "shield points" that are "added" to the target, or are they individual "structure points" that must be removed separate from the target?

Answering that question will solve the argument.

As a totally different question, can we target the Void Shield Generator as its own unit? Kill the shields, kill the generator, wipe the rest out with D's?

SJ

The generator itself is described as being an impassible AV13 building with battlements.
Meaning it's statted. If something is statted, you can kill it.

 FlingitNow wrote:
So please quote the rule where you are allowed to resolve hits one at a time. Because I can't find it in my 6th Edition Rulebook nor in the Void Shield Projection rules. Should be straight forward enough as you claim it is there.

Page 36 BRB

fossing wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
So please quote the rule where you are allowed to resolve hits one at a time. Because I can't find it in my 6th Edition Rulebook nor in the Void Shield Projection rules. Should be straight forward enough as you claim it is there.

Page 36 BRB

? That's the deep strike rules. I think you're reading the wrong rulebook.

It seems like GW is using Void Shields as ablative "hull points" for any unit under them, requiring the attacker to ablate the "shield points" first before damage can be applied to the target. If that is the case, any additional hits after the "shield points" are removed would carry over to the target. However, if each Void Shield is treated as a separate "vehicle" with a single "hull point", then any additional hits are lost as soon as that Shield drops

If its the former then you can't target infantry without the shields being immortal due to majority toughness rules.

So, are Void Shields ablative "shield points" that are "added" to the target, or are they individual "structure points" that must be removed separate from the target?

Answering that question will solve the argument.

Well they aren't part of the unit. Hits get transferred to them instead of the target unit so they are certainly separate.

As a totally different question, can we target the Void Shield Generator as its own unit? Kill the shields, kill the generator, wipe the rest out with D's?

But the generator will be in the shielded area so unless you can get in there it is moot and if you're in there you can just start killing the actual units. I doubt someone running that would allow you to get in there.

 FlingitNow wrote:

As a totally different question, can we target the Void Shield Generator as its own unit? Kill the shields, kill the generator, wipe the rest out with D's?

But the generator will be in the shielded area so unless you can get in there it is moot and if you're in there you can just start killing the actual units. I doubt someone running that would allow you to get in there.

.

Scorched Earth is always an option.

As noone explicitly mentioned this - fast rolling ONLY applies when the order of rolling has no bearing on things. Here, you have to know with shot "2" whetehr it is hitting a void shield or the chaos marine standing under it.

So you must, repeat, MUST, roll the to-wound / to-AP stage separately when you have these shields involved. To do otherwise breaks your permission to "fast roll"

Shooting from one unit is not ALWAYS simultaneous. Rolling on the damage chart has an ordering required, so does rolling to damage squadron'ed vehicles, etc

? That's the deep strike rules. I think you're reading the wrong rulebook.

Was under the impression the iPad rulebook had the same page numbers as BRB. I could be mistaken, or you could be sitting with the small rulebook.
Its Roll to Wound, i does not give you explicit permission. But flick forward to page 40, section "Fast Dice" there it says:
"Even in units with mixed saves, it is not always necessary to allocate wounds one at a time."
You have to treat the void shield as certain kind of save, awarded to the unit being shot at. We have allready established that the transport vehicle comparison does not translate well into actual solutions to understanding this rule.
I hope that is what we are still trying to do, and not trying to create another skyshield landing pad. That would be extremely counter-productive, as it would just take an exciting new fortification and turn it into a big lump of cheese.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
just ahead of me there nosferatu1001, thnx :-)

Was under the impression the iPad rulebook had the same page numbers as BRB. I could be mistaken, or you could be sitting with the small rulebook.
Its Roll to Wound, i does not give you explicit permission. But flick forward to page 40, section "Fast Dice" there it says:
"Even in units with mixed saves, it is not always necessary to allocate wounds one at a time."

I was using the big book but the page numbers are identical to the small one. Notice how fast dice are talking about save throws because those and wound allocation are sequential. Those are done one at a time, rolls to wound and pen are not done sequentially. So please provide actual evidence to support your one at a time method or accept that you've made those rules up out of thin air.


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Shooting from one unit is not ALWAYS simultaneous. Rolling on the damage chart has an ordering required, so does rolling to damage squadron'ed vehicles, etc

You have permission to resolve those things sequentially you are not doing either of those things here so you do not have permission to resolve sequentially.

Use the next nearest rules to the situation: Damaging Squadrons.

This is allocating and resolving each individual hit sequentially.

So your S6 attacks on the guardsman unit has you allocating each hit to the void shield and on the first "6" rolled the remaining hits all roll to wound together(then those wounds are allocated individually).

Wounds and AV hits are sequential.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Use the next nearest rules to the situation: Damaging Squadrons.

This is allocating and resolving each individual hit sequentially.

So your S6 attacks on the guardsman unit has you allocating each hit to the void shield and on the first "6" rolled the remaining hits all roll to wound together(then those wounds are allocated individually).

Wounds and AV hits are sequential.

Cool just point me to the section in the Void Shield Projection rules that reference vehicle squadron shooting rules and we can use those rules. I'm reading it now and I can't find that reference.

Fossing / Kel - indeed, you are told to "fast dice roll" only when this hsa no effect on the game.

This is a text book example of rolling together causing issues, so you cannot do it.

I dont know why this is so special: void shields have always worked this way.

It is the nearest situation.

You have a special rule that intercepts attacks with an AV.

All AV attacks are handled sequentially on their own, and a working knowledge of the rules should click in ones head that there are specific rules for Multiple targets with an AV. Those rules are the Vehicle Squadron rules.

Or you can point me to where the rules state you should be completely blind to like situations and just pack up and go home the second anything that is not specifically covered in its own section of rules comes up.

You have a rule that throws an AV into the mix of your Shooting Resolution; we have a rule for that: allocate the Hits.

I disagree it is the nearest situation. I think the nearest situation is firing at a single vehicle. Because that is literally what you are doing once the shield intercepts the hits.

Penetration rolls are not done sequentially other than in a specific example where permission is given. You lack that permission here.

We are assuming we have allready rolled to hit against a unit.

We are then told

"Each projected void shield has an Armour Value of 12."

Ok so i have to shoot at something with armor value of 12, now i know what i need to roll to wound (glance or penetrate).

"A Glance or Penetrating hit (or any hit from a Destroyer weapon) scored against a projected void shield [this is singular] causes it to collapse."

Now we know that a single glance or penetrate will remove the shield, allowing us access to wound our primary target (that is described in the next sentence:

"If all the projected void shields have collapsed [this is plural so as to cover cases of multiple projected void shields from the VSG taking the absorbs], further hits strike the original target instead."

Now all of this is connected to a single event, or shooting attack because it is all in the same section, that is how you write rules, or law for that matter. If further hits should deal with further shooting attacks made by other units, it would have been written differently.
So you see this rule, or part of the rule creates an environment where it is prudent, and practical to resolve each hit separately. It does not say anywhere that you have to, but not doing so will break the game. It is certainly not the first time that scenario has been possible, and will most certainly not be the last time. But ask yourself, what is your objective ? to win a theoretical argument, or to have a practical solution, that you, yourself can use in your friendly games. Or in big tournament games, without everyone acusing you of using cheese, or worse cheating.
I am myself pretty sad, that everytime i take my skyshield landing pad into my army list to try out a couple of new tactics, i get funny looks from my local group, because they have heard that you can exploit that landing pad alot.
I am sorry, i dont use my landing pad to conga line my guardsmen to a 4+ inv save, or anything else, i just think it is a cool model and want to use it.
In this instance i want to have a go at bulding a couple of cool looking void shield generators, and use them in friendly games. If these exploiting attempts persists, there is a danger that the Void Shield Generator will be labeled as broken, and cheese, and cheating and what not. And in the end it will ruin the fun and time i spend on it, and that is something i am not interested in, and i frankly cannot fathom why other players who love this hobby, might be.

I want to work out what the rules actually are for these and why.Therefore I know both what I can use and what I'll be up against.

At the moment I don't see permission to resolve the shooting sequentially. Even if you do I don't see how that interacts with multiple void shields as there is no permission to pass hits between shields.

 FlingitNow wrote:
I disagree it is the nearest situation. I think the nearest situation is firing at a single vehicle. Because that is literally what you are doing once the shield intercepts the hits.

First off, no you are never firing AT the Void Shields; you are firing at t he unit.

Second of all, what if you are firing at a Single Vehicle behind the void Shields? You now have an exact Damaging Squadrons situation in that you have 2 separate AVs.

Penetration rolls are not done sequentially other than in a specific example where permission is given. You lack that permission here.

Where is the permission to apply the Void shield's rules to each hit simultaneously? The Void Shield intercepts each hit individually, crashes when it takes a glancing or a pen, and all subsequent hits strike the unit.

First off, no you are never firing AT the Void Shields; you are firing at t he unit.

Second of all, what if you are firing at a Single Vehicle behind the void Shields? You now have an exact Damaging Squadrons situation in that you have 2 separate AVs.

You never target the shield but once it is hit it is a distinct single hull point unit. Also what if the target is infantry. In squadrons you have 2 AVs in a single unit you do not have that here. You have an AV thing you are hitting and another separate unit.

Where is the permission to apply the Void shield's rules to each hit simultaneously? The Void Shield intercepts each hit individually, crashes when it takes a glancing or a pen, and all subsequent hits strike the unit.

The shooting rules define that all hits are simultaneous. Therefore anything that intercepts those hits must do it simultaneously unless given permission to break that rule.

You still haven't answered how you feel with 3 generators each with a single shield protecting a unit. You randomise and they all hit 1 shield what then?

1st Paragraph on page 13 explains quite clearly in what context the 'all firing is simultaneous' applies.

Exactly all firing regardless of how you choose to roll the dice. Some parts are handled sequentially the rules tell you when to do this. They remain silent on this scenario.

 FlingitNow wrote:


You still haven't answered how you feel with 3 generators each with a single shield protecting a unit. You randomise and they all hit 1 shield what then?

if your going to go down that line then the rest of the shots are resolved agasint the orriginal unit...just like the void shield rule says.....your really makeing a mountain out of a molehill here

 nutty_nutter wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:


You still haven't answered how you feel with 3 generators each with a single shield protecting a unit. You randomise and they all hit 1 shield what then?

if your going to go down that line then the rest of the shots are resolved agasint the orriginal unit...just like the void shield rule says.....your really makeing a mountain out of a molehill here

No that only gives you permission to do that if all shields are down and they most certainly are not.

I'm trying to find out how best to interpret the rules in a consistent way.

you keep dismissing people that are explaining how the shields work in a consistant way, having 1 projector putting out 3 shields is effectivly the same as having 3 seperate generators putting out shields, one way or the other, once the shield has been topled, remaining hits go back on the unit, which, in the case of seperate shield generators, would then be directed that way.

armour pen rolls are to be made seperatly as you need to know what your rolling against and as a shield not being there passes the hits back to the unit you must roll them seperatly until either the shields are all gone or the shield has absorbed all the hits.

 FlingitNow wrote:
So please quote the rule where you are allowed to resolve hits one at a time. Because I can't find it in my 6th Edition Rulebook nor in the Void Shield Projection rules. Should be straight forward enough as you claim it is there.

BRB page 73. "Once a hit has been scored on a vehicle, roll a D6 and add the weapon's strength value..."

Bold for emphasis.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
So please quote the rule where you are allowed to resolve hits one at a time. Because I can't find it in my 6th Edition Rulebook nor in the Void Shield Projection rules. Should be straight forward enough as you claim it is there.

BRB page 73. "Once a hit has been scored on a vehicle, roll a D6 and add the weapon's strength value..."

Bold for emphasis.

waiting for the comeback of a void shield is not a vehicle now......