Voidshields how do they work?

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**Shandara**

The void shield isn't a separate unit or target is it? So if you score, say, 6 hits and resolve them against the shield and get 6 pens, 1 of the penetrating hits is enough to collapse the shield.

Do you stop allocating the rest? You can't allocate them to the shield anymore (since it is gone), right?

**fossing**

Wrong, sorry.

**CthuluIsSpy**

FlingitNow wrote:
Happyjew wrote:
So then the part about further hits hitting the original unit does nothing?

At the moment it looks like it just reminds you that further shooting from a different unit will hit the target not the downed shield.

The rules are not very clearly written though.

Yeah, normally they provide an example for these sort of things :/

**FlingitNow**

Shandara wrote:
The void shield isn't a separate unit or target is it? So if you score, say, 6 hits and resolve them against the shield and get 6 pens, 1 of the penetrating hits is enough to collapse the shield.

Do you stop allocating the rest? You can't allocate them to the shield anymore (since it is gone), right?

It is indeed a separate target. Also how would you allocate those penetrating hits to say a guardsman? Say those pens came from a S7 weapon are you claiming you could apply those to an AV14 building or tank behind a shield?

**fossing**

FlingitNow wrote:
Happyjew wrote:
So then the part about further hits hitting the original unit does nothing?

At the moment it looks like it just reminds you that further shooting from a different unit will hit the target not the downed shield.

The rules are not very clearly written though.

They are pretty clear m8: "if all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead".

look at the last section: Original target instead, i have allready made this clear one time before.
A secondary unit that has not even shot yet, or decided what they want to shoot at cannot have that original target, that the Special rule refers to.
The further hits that the special rule refers to, must come from whatever hits your current unit have scored. There is no other posibility.
The rule talks nothing about further shooting attacks, attacks from different units and so on. And it doesnt need to.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

FlingitNow wrote:
Shandara wrote:
The void shield isn't a separate unit or target is it? So if you score, say, 6 hits and resolve them against the shield and get 6 pens, 1 of the penetrating hits is enough to collapse the shield.

Do you stop allocating the rest? You can't allocate them to the shield anymore (since it is gone), right?

It is indeed a separate target. Also how would you allocate those penetrating hits to say a guardsman? Say those pens came from a S7 weapon are you claiming you could apply those to an AV14 building or tank behind a shield?

Penetrating hits doesn nothing else, besides collapsing a projected void shield!
There is a void shield, it comes with a standard 1 projected void shield, that same void shield generator can purchase up to 2 extra projected void shields.

**FlingitNow**

They are pretty clear m8: "if all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead".

look at the last section: Original target instead, i have allready made this clear one time before.
A secondary unit that has not even shot yet, or decided what they want to shoot at cannot have that original target, that the Special rule refers to.
The further hits that the special rule refers to, must come from whatever hits your current unit have scored. There is no other posibility.
The rule talks nothing about further shooting attacks, attacks from different units and so on. And it doesnt need to.

I know you've said this but you haven't given a rules based argument for how that works. For instance you have a guard squad behind 3 void shield projections. You hit with 12 S7 shots. You then HAVE to randomise those shots between the shields. Calling them Sh1, Sh2, Sh3 where you get 3 hits, 7 hits & 2 hits respectively.

In your interpretation what do I do next? Using actual rules please explain.

**fossing**

No because the actual special rule tells you to randomize between void shield generators, not projected void shields.

it says: "If a unit is withing 12" of more than one Void Shield Generator, and so within more than one Void Shield Zone when it is hit, randomly determine which of the buildings' projected void shields is hit."

Pretty simple, you determine by chance, which Void Shield Generator absorbs the shots, if its the VSG with 3 shields up, you are lucky, if its the VSG with just one projected void shield, you are not. Simple.

**ItsPug**

You are supposed to roll the dice to penetrate one at a time as per the rulebook, rolling them all together is a convention where the order of which dice wound or penetrate do not matter. Cases in which the order matters include the shadow field, and rolling to penetrate vehicle squadrons.

So what happens if a tactical squad armed with 8 bolters a missile launcher fire at a unit protected by a void shield is that all the to hit rolls can be rolled together, come time to penetrate the void shield, the controlling player allocates the missile first and rolls to bring down the shield. If that is accomplished the bolters hits are allocated against the target unit, if the void shield is still active, the bolter shots are wasted as they cannot bring down the void shield.

**fossing**

ItsPug wrote:
You are supposed to roll the dice to penetrate one at a time as per the rulebook, rolling them all together is a convention where the order of which dice wound or penetrate do not matter. Cases in which the order matters include the shadow field, and rolling to penetrate vehicle squadrons.

So what happens if a tactical squad armed with 8 bolters a missile launcher fire at a unit protected by a void shield is that all the to hit rolls can be rolled together, come time to penetrate the void shield, the controlling player allocates the missile first and rolls to bring down the shield. If that is accomplished the bolters hits are allocated against the target unit, if the void shield is still active, the bolter shots are wasted as they cannot bring down the void shield.

yes exactly

**FlingitNow**

So in my example you have 3 shield generators each with 1 shield. I'm not going to argue about what you need to randomise between at this point.

So tell me how you proceed in my example. Explain what you think the rules tell you to do. I have presented my case with rules. You've highlighted 1 sentence as said hits go over to the unit but haven't explained how.

**fossing**

You did not say that you had 3 shield generators with 1 shield each, you simply said 3 projected void shields. These could come from a single void shield generator.

in your second example
You first roll a d3, pick the VSG you get.
Then your opponent tries to use his 12 s7 hits to penetrate or glance your single void shield, when he succeeds your opponent takes the remaining hits and resolve them against the original target (the unit).

If i quote anymore from the book i might aswell copy paste the entire special rule into this forum, i dont want to do that.
And i think it is against forum rules.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
FlingitNow, sorry im so steadfast on this, but im just curious, do you have the book or ?

**FlingitNow**

in your second example
You first roll a d3, pick the VSG you get. Then your opponent tries to use his 12 s7 hits to penetrate or glance your single void shield, when he succeeds your opponent takes the remaining hits and resolve them against the original target (the unit).

So much wrong with this. Firstly we are told to randomise each hit. So in my example I told you how the randomisation went. However we'll go with all 12 hitting Sh2.

Then you have the sentence that I don't understand "Then your opponent tries to use his 12 s7 hits to penetrate or glance your single void shield," what do you mean by this? So I get 3 pens and 3 glances with those 12 hits how do those go onto the guardsmen?

Then you claim to put extra hits onto the guardsmen who are still covered by a VSP so can't have those hits assigned to them. "If all projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target". We have neither conditions "all projected void shields have collapse" (2 remain) nor do we have "further hits".

**Thatguyoverthere11**

I have the book and, quite honestly thia is silly. Just reslove each hit one at a time until all the Shields are collapsed then roll the rest of your dice. It's not meant to have a million lascannon shots get wasted firing at one shield. Hit 3 times, knock down the shield on the first shot, the remainder go into the unit you originally fired at.

Now the real question, how do marker lights work with the shield?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
To avoid reading too far into my post, if there are more than 1 shield continue on to the next shield until the y all have collapsed or you have run out of shots.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Whilst that may make sense, the rules don't really make that clear. All shots from a unit are at the same time.

In Stronghold assault, all shots from the unit that hits the target hits the shield instead. Ergo, according to how it's worded, all shots must hit the shield.

Doesn't Quantum Shield follow the same system? With that, you do not resolve one at a time.

**Thatguyoverthere11**

Right... because it's a vehicle and not a 1 hull point shield

Just take the 9 shield formation and make your opponent knock each one down with a different unit. It'll be fun

**nutty_nutter**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Whilst that may make sense, the rules don't really make that clear. All shots from a unit are at the same time.

In Stronghold assault, all shots from the unit that hits the target hits the shield instead. Ergo, according to how it's worded, all shots must hit the shield.

Doesn't Quantum Shield follow the same system? With that, you do not resolve one at a time.

yes you do roll them separately, if one penetrates the shield immediately drops and you revert to the standard AV.

also as you are rolling against an AV you must resolve each separately.

its really not a difficult concept and the basic function of void shields has not changed since Apoc 1.0......the shield is there until it has been breeched, when it is gone, remaining hits go onto the unit to resolve normally.

**fossing**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Whilst that may make sense, the rules don't really make that clear. All shots from a unit are at the same time.

In Stronghold assault, all shots from the unit that hits the target hits the shield instead. Ergo, according to how it's worded, all shots must hit the shield.

Doesn't Quantum Shield follow the same system? With that, you do not resolve one at a time.

Thee special rule tell you that, yes but also tells you that further hits strike The original target instead.
Ergo, all shots must not hit The shield

**FlingitNow**

Just reslove each hit one at a time until all the Shields are collapsed then roll the rest of your dice.

Where's your permission to do this?

Now the real question, how do marker lights work with the shield?

They hit the shield which does nothing as they do no damage and the shield can't be targeted.

Doesn't Quantum Shield follow the same system? With that, you do not resolve one at a time.

No as all shots from one unit are simultaneous you do not know if you have a penetrating hit until all hits have rolled to penetrate. Therefore only later units get to roll against AV11.

**CthuluIsSpy**

fossing wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Whilst that may make sense, the rules don't really make that clear. All shots from a unit are at the same time.

In Stronghold assault, all shots from the unit that hits the target hits the shield instead. Ergo, according to how it's worded, all shots must hit the shield.

Doesn't Quantum Shield follow the same system? With that, you do not resolve one at a time.

Thee special rule tell you that, yes but also tells you that further hits strike The original target instead.
Ergo, all shots must not hit The shield

Further hits can just as easily refer to another unit. "Further" implies next. If all hits are at the same time, then "further" cannot apply to the firing unit.

It would have made things so much easier if they just wrote "resolve each hit against the shield separately until they are removed" :/

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nutty_nutter wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Whilst that may make sense, the rules don't really make that clear. All shots from a unit are at the same time.

In Stronghold assault, all shots from the unit that hits the target hits the shield instead. Ergo, according to how it's worded, all shots must hit the shield.

Doesn't Quantum Shield follow the same system? With that, you do not resolve one at a time.

yes you do roll them separately, if one penetrates the shield immediately drops and you revert to the standard AV.

also as you are rolling against an AV you must resolve each separately.

its really not a difficult concept and the basic function of void shields has not changed since Apoc 1.0......the shield is there until it has been breeched, when it is gone, remaining hits go onto the unit to resolve normally.

Where does it give you permission to do that, exactly? I do not recall such wording nor clarification.

**Kriswall**

It seems like you should just treat the void shield as a part of the unit, standing out front, with an AV value instead of a Toughness. If you have multiple Void Shields, they are all "standing out front" at exactly the same distance, so you have to randomize to see which you hit. When the Void Shields are all down, the rest of the shots hit the next closest model, etc.

**GeneralCael**

FlingitNow wrote:
Just reslove each hit one at a time until all the Shields are collapsed then roll the rest of your dice.

Where's your permission to do this?

In the RULE!!! The Special rule called "Projected Void Shields".

**Shandara**

The void shield is not the unit shot at, it just provides a special rule to the target unit.

It does a lot of handwaving, but you aren't shooting at the void shield generator so if you have penetrating hits left after collapsing the shield you have to allocate them somewhere...

**CthuluIsSpy**

GeneralCael wrote:
FlingitNow wrote:
Just reslove each hit one at a time until all the Shields are collapsed then roll the rest of your dice.

Where's your permission to do this?

In the RULE!!! The Special rule called "Projected Void Shields".

Ok then

Projected Void Shields: A Void Shield Generator has a single projected void shield. It can be upgraded to include additional layers of void shielding.

Each projected void shield has a 12" area of effect (measured from any point on the Void Shield Generator building), known as a Void Shield Zone. Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield. If a unit is within 12" of more than one Void Shield Generator, and so within more than one Void Shield Zone when it is hit, randomly determine which of the buildings’ projected void shields is hit.

Each projected void shield has an Armour Value of 12. A glancing or penetrating hit (or any hit from a Destroyer weapon) scored against a projected void shield causes it to collapse. If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead. At the end of each of the controlling player’s turns, roll a dice for each projected void shield that has collapsed; each roll of 5+ instantly restores one shield.

Kindly point to where it says that each hit is resolved separately against a shield.

**Kriswall**

How does this sound for a layman's explanation of how this is supposed to work?

5 man Dev Squad with Lascannons are standing right out front, we'll say 18 inches away from a dastardly unit of Chaos Space Marines. The Choas scum are standing within two overlapping Void Shield Zones created by a nearby Void Shield Generator.

They fire and the 4 Lascannon toting marines hit while the Sargeant with his fearsome Bolt Pistol misses.

So, the first shot is resolved... the marine rolls a 2. This would be enough to wound and kill one of the Traitor Marines, but alas, there are Void Shields in the way. Randomly hitting the first, 9+2=11, which is not enough to take down the shield.

The next 2 shots roll high and are randomly allocated to each Void Shield Zone, taking them down in turn.

The last shot rolls a 5, more than enough to take out one of the followers of Chaos. Are there anymore Void Shield Zones covering them? No. So the Marine dies.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Kriswall wrote:
How does this sound for a layman's explanation of how this is supposed to work?

5 man Dev Squad with Lascannons are standing right out front, we'll say 18 inches away from a dastardly unit of Chaos Space Marines. The Choas scum are standing within two overlapping Void Shield Zones created by a nearby Void Shield Generator.

They fire and the 4 Lascannon toting marines hit while the Sargeant with his fearsome Bolt Pistol misses.

So, the first shot is resolved... the marine rolls a 2. This would be enough to wound and kill one of the Traitor Marines, but alas, there are Void Shields in the way. Randomly hitting the first, 9+2=11, which is not enough to take down the shield.

The next 2 shots roll high and are randomly allocated to each Void Shield Zone, taking them down in turn.

The last shot rolls a 5, more than enough to take out one of the followers of Chaos. Are there anymore Void Shield Zones covering them? No. So the Marine dies.

Sadly, the rules don't seem to support that. Again, point to where it says each shot is resolved separately.

The problem is that Further can be interpreted in two ways.

1) Further hits from the firing unit

2) Further hits from another unit

Option 1) is at odds with the rule that all shots are made and hit simultaneously.

Option 2) is at odds with practicality, because that means you need to spend at most 3 units to get rid of the shields.

All they had to do was add "resolve each shot against the shield separately. If all shields have been removed, resolve any remaining shots against the unit." They had 1 job...

**FlingitNow**

It seems like you should just treat the void shield as a part of the unit, standing out front, with an AV value instead of a Toughness. If you have multiple Void Shields, they are all "standing out front" at exactly the same distance, so you have to randomize to see which you hit. When the Void Shields are all down, the rest of the shots hit the next closest model, etc.

You've just made up a load of rules. If you treat as part of the unit you go on majority toughness, my previous example T3 you'd roll to wound and then apply those rounds to the void shield which of course is unaffected by wounds so it would be immortal...

In the RULE!!! The Special rule called "Projected Void Shields".

Where please quote permission to resolve shots sequentially I'm not seeing it.

Filter Thread

The void shield is not the unit shot at, it just provides a special rule to the target unit.

It does a lot of handwaving, but you aren't shooting at the void shield generator so if you have penetrating hits left after collapsing the shield you have to allocate them somewhere...

Why do they have to go somewhere? If I glance a Landraider 7 times does the unit inside take 3 hits? Also now do you allocate glancing hits to Guardsmen (or other toughness & wounds models).

**fossing**

Haha this is so absurd.
Cthululsspy, explain to me: How would you play void shields ?

Look at me i take this super heavy tank, i place it under 3 void shield generators with 3 projected void shields each. You now need to have 9 units with sufficient anti armor capability to knock down my void shields. After that you need to have enough anti armor firepower to knock out my super heavy.
I now win all games, this is so awesome! The best protection in The game for 340 points, whats not to like!
Hahahahaha

Sounds wrong to you, yes?

**Kriswall**

In this instance, you're not shooting at the Landraider. You're shooting at the unit inside. If it takes a couple of shots to take out the Land Raider, so be it. Once it's down, the rest of the hits strike the original target. That's how I read Void Shield Zones to work.

**CthuluIsSpy**

fossing wrote:
Haha this is so absurd.
Cthululsspy, explain to me: How would you play void shields ?

Look at me i take this super heavy tank, i place it under 3 void shield generators with 3 projected void shields each. You now need to have 9 units with sufficient anti armor capability to knock down my void shields. After that you need to have enough anti armor firepower to knock out my super heavy.
I now win all games, this is so awesome! The best protection in The game for 340 points, whats not to like!
Hahahahaha

Sounds wrong to you, yes?

Yep. Don't forget though that this is from the same company who made it possible to get a 2++ rerollable. It's GW; anything is possible.

Besides, I play necrons. My weakest gun can kill your void shields

**fossing**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Kriswall wrote:
How does this sound for a layman's explanation of how this is supposed to work?

5 man Dev Squad with Lascannons are standing right out front, we'll say 18 inches away from a dastardly unit of Chaos Space Marines. The Choas scum are standing within two overlapping Void Shield Zones created by a nearby Void Shield Generator.

They fire and the 4 Lascannon toting marines hit while the Sargeant with his fearsome Bolt Pistol misses.

So, the first shot is resolved... the marine rolls a 2. This would be enough to wound and kill one of the Traitor Marines, but alas, there are Void Shields in the way. Randomly hitting the first, 9+2=11, which is not enough to take down the shield.

The next 2 shots roll high and are randomly allocated to each Void Shield Zone, taking them down in turn.

The last shot rolls a 5, more than enough to take out one of the followers of Chaos. Are there anymore Void Shield Zones covering them? No. So the Marine dies.

Sadly, the rules don't seem to support that. Again, point to where it says each shot is resolved separately.

The problem is that Further can be interpreted in two ways.

1) Further hits from the firing unit

2) Further hits from another unit

Option 1) is at odds with the rule that all shots are made and hit simultaneously.

Option 2) is at odds with practicality, because that means you need to spend at most 3 units to get rid of the shields.

All they had to do was add "resolve each shot against the shield separately. If all shields have been removed, resolve any remaining shots against the unit." They had 1 job...

It is further hits strike The original target!!!
Not just further hits!

How Can you have an original target with another Unit as you have not fired anything else yet???