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Dalymiddleboro wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
And to look at it from the other side... Very few among other factions can even tell the difference between Craftworlders, Corsairs, Dark Eldar and what-have-you other Eldar groups. No matter which faction attacked you all you can tell is that they're Eldar.

The spiky bits and venoms/raiders aren't a dead giveaway that it's not eldar?

No? After all, a poisoned shuriken catapult kills you just as dead as one that isn't poisoned, and all Eldar dress funny... it's not like some Imperial rube on Planet Kansas knows the difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:
Its not an interpreted meaning. The story actually says Iyanden asks why the Dark eldar helped them.

Books cannot be considered cannon fluff, unless we are going to say rhinos and land raiders have multi lasers and farseers are child molesters. 1 person out of billions, maybe trillions converting from the dark eldar lifestyle to the monk like lifestyle of craftworld eldar is a complete anomaly to drive a novel story and not the basis for commonality.

The mention of the eye of terror campaign is a false entry due to being during a edition when eldar and dark eldar had no fluff of getting along, and there were not able to ally within the rules of the game, the fact that they -separately- ejected the thousand sons from the webway is also there. its also mentioned in the eldar codex, and is retconned that the dark eldar were never there, its instead harlequins and two different craftworlds who stop the thousand sons.

War in the webway, Ulthwe versus Dark eldar from 6th edition Eldar codex- Dark eldar are fighting Ulthwe, they agree to an uneasy truce because they value their own lives despite that they mutally loath each other. Battle brothers probably don't normally loathe each other.

as to Il-Kaithe and dark eldar, it does state they will fight chaos no matter what the cost, even allying with Commorragh. If you are allying no matter what the cost, if that cost is implied as being bad, which is what that statement says, that's not a battle brother.

There is 0 information in any codex that supports battle brother status.

There is no such thing as canon in 40K. There are a whole fethload of cannons, though, as those shoot things, blow things up, and make people die. Automatic or otherwise.

If you want to find a rule-book "canon" justification for Eldar and Dark Eldar being Battle-Brothers? The Allies Matrix tells you they are. End of discussion.

Space Marines can be Battle Brothers with one another, and yet there are plenty of situations where one Chapter fights another Chapter. The Heresy being obviously one, but the Badab War is yet another (and, of the losing side, very few went on to become Chaos Space Marines). The Blood Angels and the Space Wolves have a rivalry dating back to the time of the Heresy, and it is not always a friendly one.

The "Battle Brothers" title does not imply that the two groups get along socially as the best of friends, it implies that their wargear, their tactical doctrine, their fighting styles and their command protocols mesh near-perfectly, preventing battlefield screw-ups and snafus that are more-common between groups that do not know how the other functions, works, handles combat, and so on. IG work well with SM because both sides know how the other works, even if the IG may not particularly *like* being deployed alongside the Flesh Tearers, or the glory-hound Ultramarines. Eldar and Dark Eldar know how one another think, act and function. Their combat style, emphasizing speed, guile and feinting maneuvers, blends perfectly, regardless of whether you came from Commoragh or from a Craftworld. Lastly, there are many Eldar who have moved between the Corsair fleets and one faction or the other, or from Craftworld to Corsair to Commoragh and back, to have shared experiences, bloodlines, and other ties that bind the two societies together.

 Psienesis wrote:
There is no such thing as canon in 40K. There are a whole fethload of cannons, though, as those shoot things, blow things up, and make people die. Automatic or otherwise.

Good one. Sigged.

If you want to find a rule-book "canon" justification for Eldar and Dark Eldar being Battle-Brothers? The Allies Matrix tells you they are. End of discussion.

your post is simply trolling.

It was already mentioned by others myself included that the allies matrix lists them as battle brothers and that is the only reason needed. However this entire discussion is on whether or not the background contained within the rules for the game accurately shows them being what people would consider battle brothers. You would notice that if you had read the posts in this thread and were not simply trolling.

x13rads wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Lol so when proven.from both the background info from the eldar and dark eldar codex you make strawman statement.

Show me where in the rules reavers can turn missiles.fired at.them back to the firer, since that happened in a novel.

Your comment on my factual.statements is.an invalid opinion with nothing to support it and no attempt to support it and is nothing more than trolling

a. The guy gave you examples of fluff that prove his point, and you argue that if it isn't in a Codex it can't be true.

and

b. 40k is a game. Just because someone did it in a novel doesn't mean thay should be able to do it on the tabletop.

example: if Terminators were as tough in the GAME as they are in the FLUFF there would be no reason to even show up to play

The examples from the codexes however were list without accuracy, as the codexes actually state further things in those same sections that were qouted, like the eldar not knowing why the dark eldar would help them and questioning them to find out why. Or that the thousand sons were not ejected by a combined dark eldar+eldar harlequin force, but by 2 eldar forces from different craftworlds and harlequins. Or that ill-kaithe considers it a terrible cost to have to ally with dark eldar to stop chaos. Or that the war in the webway ended despite the eldar and dark eldar LOATHING each other.

All of these are background instances of interaction of dark eldar and eldar within the eldar codex and dark eldar codex, and all of them show that although they can talk and get a long that they do not like each other, and in fact hate each other.

As to your "b." statement the allies matrix is a rule within the game, if people are going to use very very rare uncommon instances as book references from novels which are fluff outside of the rules fluff contained within the BRB and the codexes to support a common thing happening in the rules of the game, then you must also consider if the book references for novels would affect in game rules for allies, that they should also affect in games rules period.

I am not saying they should not be allies, I am just saying the background contained for them does not show that they would be battle brothers, and guess what It doesn't.

Saying "oh yeah well this one guy out of trillions totally said hey i'm going to stop torturing and raping people for fun, and become a monk with those craftworld guys" is not the basis for it commonly happening and the eldar and dark eldar sharing a cup of tea as they discuss the best way to kill some orks then fist bump each other before riding off on their jetbikes holding hands.

Do you really think farseers are all super keen on riding around with the Baron, who is using runes he took from a farseer he murdered to predict the future while he adjusts his flip flops on his skyboard?

Everyone that has qouted fluff from codexes in this thread supporting the Eldar+Dark Eldar love union has left out every part of the fluff they qouted that relates to how the eldar thought of the dark eldar and vice versa. Simply stating well they stopped fighting, or well they both killed these chaos guys over here, leaves out that they loathe each other, and hate each other.

Yeah the allies matrix says they are battle brothers, I said that, and others said that. Yep that's all you need for it to be okay to do rules wise. However the rea$on it was done rule$ wi$e ha$ nothing to do with the background of the game.

blaktoof wrote:

Books cannot be considered cannon fluff...

So all of the HH books are bull gak? Good to know. I can stop reading them, now.

Well according to things from various black library books:

Ahra is Karandras

Terminators do backflips, a lot

Landraiders have multi lasers, so do terminators, who also have assault cannons which convert to multi lasters.

Khorne has sorcerers, they know biomancy and pyromancy.

Wolf guard terminators can climb faster than if they were not in armor.

Tyranids can use vox casters to disable them, and can fuse their biological parts with machines.

Techmarines can rip open talos with their bare hands.

Dark Eldar work for Slaanesh

Eldar work for Slaanesh

Not all farseers have psychic powers

Some Farseers are chubby child molesters

1 assault marine with only a chain sword can win aerial duels with an unhurt Harridan

Eldar can commit suicide by breaking their soulstone, which kills them.

Children can destroy eldar falcon tanks with sticks.

You can block warp spiders going somewhere by standing in front of them.

Ehh, I think it's mostly stuff a lot of his readers just aren't very familiar with. For example, in his books, the Schola Progenium serves as a training center for Sororitas Novices, Cadet Commissars and Storm Troopers, who are trained by their own organisations, with the pupils even mingling and playing sports against one another. This is a fairly different image to the Schola as described in GW own fluff, which practices a strict separation of the sexes and has only Drill-Abbots as teachers. Plus, the kind of advanced training the Mitchell describes in his books would happen in the various organisation's own facilities - young Sisters serve their novitiate in a convent of the Orders Famulous, and young Commissars are schooled in Commissar Training Squads that are part of an existing Imperial Guard regiment.

Oh, and in Mitchell's book, the Veteran Sister Superior in charge of training novices at the Schola hangs out with the other teachers, drinking alcohol and playing cards with them, even flirting with Cain. This just doesn't synch with anything I got from the Codex fluff about "a penitent organisation where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regim" and whose members "believe that the purpose of life is to suffer". Considering how this veteran is in charge of raising the next generation of Sisters, this only makes the contrast even more critical.

Spore mines can -drag- terminators to death with their tentacles

--- THESE are all things taken from Black Library books--- They were not all done solely by C.S. Goto, even still C.S. Goto and these other peoples work is considered Canon by the Black Library and GW.

Obviously the fluff in the books does not always match up with the fluff in the codexes, or the BRB, or imperial armor. In some cases its counter to the fluff or rules, and in some cases its very extreme.

In case no one noticed the fluff in the books is all just there to drive the storyline and is not to be taken along with the fluff of the game as actually being the same, because often they are not the same.

Its also worth mentiong GW considers DoW background to be legitimate, in which case Asdrubel Vect is dead.

So for you, you just like to pick and choose which fluff is acceptable and which is not. Like I said before, now I know not to take your arguements seriously.

/out

So I point out -all- the fluff in the codex eldar and dark eldar shows the eldar and dark eldar do not like working together and in fact hate each other. They do it despite hating each other and not liking each other.

Then point out that random fluff from novels, in some cases that are even stated as being extremely uncommon and very rare are not the basis for commonality, and further point out that often novels which are black library and considered legitimate fluff and background do not always sync up with the fluff in the BRB or codexes and often contradicts it.

I apologize but people in this thread using the fluff to support it are picking out things that are:

1- misqouted, or parts of the section are blatantly left out to support the false claim that eldar+dark eldar are best friends

2- using very rare pieces of fluff and citing novels which they then claim are 100% legitimate, which they are, but at the same time think that pieces of novel background which 100% go against the background presented in the brb and codexes is me picking out pieces of stuff.

I am all for mentioning the stuff I picked out of the background from the novels as being out there and not common in the 40k brb/codex/ backgrounds or represented in anyway as plausible within the rules but its part of the background from the legitimate novels, but other peoples cherry picked things from the background from novels is somehow completely valid?

In short using novels background to support in game rules is a bad argument.

x13rads wrote:
So for you, you just like to pick and choose which fluff is acceptable and which is not. Like I said before, now I know not to take your arguements seriously.

/out

You realize there is no canon. Even GW said this themselves. The fluff is so contradictory you have to pick and choose what to believe. The best way to do this is to believe that much of it is propaganda.

your post is simply trolling.

And yours are simply QQing because the rules don't align with what you think the fluff represents, when you've been shown that the fluff indicates that Eldar and Dark Eldar have teamed up in the past, and you also ignored what the "Battle Brother" status indicates, instead seeming to believe that it means each side has the other over for tea and crumpets on the reg.

Again, this is not what "Battle Brothers" means. It is not an indication that these two groups are the best of friends. It indicates that their respective combat styles are mutually compatible and allows them to work together as a near-flawless whole. They might hate each other, but they can work together in the face of a common foe, or towards a common goal, and in doing so they know *exactly* how the other half functions, and can integrate their forces with a minimum of difficulty. But, as has been pointed out, there's nothing that really separates the Dark Eldar from the Craftworld Eldar, as Eldar of both kinds can and do switch teams fairly frequently.

Obviously you either do not know how to read, or are simply not reading any posts as the "fluff" presented was actually false, and the background from the sources listed in regards to many of the sources says opposite of what people cited.

Your statement on the allies matrix also indicates you have never read the actual rules for allies in this game.

LE\IELS OF ALTIANCE
Of course, in the grim darkness of the far future (where there is
only war), it's a sad fact that very few armies trust one another
entirely - if at all. A labyrinthine history of grudges, wars,
campaigns and betrayals (intentional or otherwise) have the
potenrial to sour all but the closest alliances - and that's to say
nothing of the deep and abiding hatred some armies feel for
others. To represent this, we have several categories of alliances,
each of which imposes certain effects on the game. The Allies
Matrix shows the levels of potential alliance between each army

I see nothing about compatible combat styles, or being able to work together as an army.

Your statement on both the background is false, as well as the rules for allies.

Battle Brothers
This category covers the strongest of alliances, two or more
armies striving for a common goal. Battle Brothers have utter
trust in their comrades, treating them as an extension of their
own forces.[u] Such alliances are always voluntary, born out of an
unyielding desire for victory.

The bolded and underlined has been shown in every background reference in the BRB, the Eldar Codex, and the Dark Eldar Codex to not exist and actually be false.

I have no problem with dark eldar and eldar being allies actually, none of my posts are QQs I just never understood all the fanboydom some people seem to irrationally have regarding the eldar+dark eldar and their perceived made up reasons for why the are now battle brothers. Yes the rules say they are, however the BRB, eldar codex, dark eldar codex does not support it through any background and actually has background that supports them not being that.

Do I care that they are battle brothers? not in the slightest, I just think its ridiculous how far some of the people who play this game go to ignore or make things up [like battle brothers and allies being based on common fighting styles and nothing else, or to completely omit sections they qoute on why the dark eldar and eldar should be friends when it states they loathe each other in those qoutes] things to justify the rules.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
AFAIK Black Libary = Cannon, other Warhammer novels are not . I believe this is because Black Library is a part of Gamesworkshop, so comparing Black Library novels to the travesties that are C.S.Goto's work is like comparing Harry Potter to some Rule 34 1d4chan fanfic, they simply aren't in the same league. Some of your points are just a bit nit-picky though, for example saying that the Eye of Terror fluff doesn't count because AFAIK that is the current chronological Area warhammer is up to, despite Eldrad's magical Resurrection.

In War in the Webway you seem to not understand my point, neither CWE or DE are a unified force so having them fight each other is understandable. My point was that even between to warring factions they will stop fighting because even the lives of those they hate are important enough not to waste.

Il-Kaine uses the word 'readily ally' (readily meaning without hesitation or reluctance) with Commaragh to fight chaos, so by definition, readily allying is the base of battle brothers isn't it?

The culture swapping is about precedence, it doesn't matter that is is rare in the slightest. The fact is that it can happen an is accepted, any faction that can move between each other with little integration are obviously closely linked. Your also forgetting the hundreds of CWE that slowly slip from CWE into Corsairs into Dark Eldar ways.

There is quite a bit of info in codices and Gamesworkshop APPROVED novels to support battle brothers.

Did you read my post, as your seem to indicate they did not as you obviosuly misunderstood my points about the War in the Webway, the black and white DEFINITION of the word Readily AND the point about precedence. It seems not only are you choosing to pick and choose your fluff but also other peoples posts as well.

**Edit** How about you take a different approach where YOU find fluff that supports your theory, times when it indicates the entire Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar hate each other and not simply picking at random characters back story. Because i all i can think of are the Incubi (Which you could classify as the indoctrination of Arha who is angry the fellow Asuryata), Sometimes having them in the arena and the War in the Webway, which has points in both camps of supporting and going against BB status

Saying CW Eldar and Com Eldar shouldn't be battle brothers is like saying Ultramarines and Iron Hands should be Come the Apocalypse. Read more about racial tensions, shared cultures, and snobbery in any setting (or the real world).

Didn't see this mentioned, but at one point, the Dark Eldar came to the rescue of the Eldar of...I want to say Lyanden, because of no other reason than they liked their powers of necromancy.

Also, aren't other DE less trustful and more frequently the victim of other DE than the CWE? And in that case, your argument would require different DE models *also* not be battle brother equivalents. Which would be outright rediculous.

Well considering Dark Eldar cannot ally with Dark Eldar, then obviously they are not battle brothers with Dark Eldar...so yeah..

Battle Brothers
This category covers the strongest of alliances, two or more
armies striving for a common goal. Battle Brothers have utter
trust in their comrades, treating them as an extension of their
own forces. Such alliances are always voluntary, born out of an
unyielding desire for victory.


That is the basis for battle brothers. Two armies striving for a common goal that have utter trust in their comrades, treating them like an extension of their own forces. Please note it has -nothing- to do with common fighting styles.

Out of the Background information presented in this thread from the BRB/ Eldar Codex / Dark Eldar Codex the following was a lie:

-Eye of terror the Dark Eldar and Eldar along with Harlequins fought the thousand sons out of the webway.

from page 23 Eldar codex under sanctity breached-

..Ahriman, is thwarted by a powerful force of Eldar Harlequins and allies from Craftworld Ulthwe and Craftworld Lugganath..

Note the Dark Eldar were not involved at all. There -is- a story in the dark eldar codex where the dark eldar eject the thousand sons from the webway near Commorragh, however it is only the dark eldar involved and happens some 300 years before the story in the eldar codex.


The following is background information from various Codexes that supports the Eldar and Dark Eldar are not battle brothers:


from Eldar Codex p.17 under "Il-Kaithe"

..The Craftworld opposes the Great Enemy at every turn, no mater the cost- it will readily ally with Commorragh and even with Mankind to thwart the machinations of chaos

Saying there "no matter the cost we will readily ally with such and such" may support an alliance but saying there is a cost to it shows that its not a open and trusting alliance. Worth noting is that it also says them will ally with mankind, whom the eldar are not BB with, also worth noting this is the only craftworld entrance out of the entirity of the eldar codex that mentions them allying with the dark eldar, and they are not a main craftworld.

p.21 Eldar Codex "War in the Webway"

The Eldar of Ulthwe and the Jade Knife Kabal of Commorragh battle for dominance within the shattered spars of the webway. With the death toll spiralling into the thousands on either side, an uneasy truce is agreed upon-despite their mutual loathing.

Obviously the word Mutually loathing is not a synonym for trust. Please look at the battle brother entry presented. There is no trust here, just loathing. Do you readily let someone you loathe fight along side them and have utter trust in them? No.

p. 23 Dark Eldar Codex " An Unexpected Ally"

..when asked by Iyandens council of seers why they intervened, the Dark Eldar reply that they find Iyanden's angst ridden forays into the world of necromancy extremely entertaining.

I pointed out previously that unexpected means someone you didn't think would help, someone else stated without reading the section at all that it means they didn't expect them to show up even though they are great battle brothers. Obviously if Iyandens council of seers has to ask them why they intervened they are not trusting, not good friends.

p.206 Rulebook "Dark Eldar"

..In many ways, the Dark City was the birthplace of the race known as Dark Eldar, the forsaken and corrupt kin of the Eldar

Forsaken isn't a group of people whom you utterly trust to fight alongside.

p.206 rulebook "Dark Eldar"

Those with witch-sight can look past their elegant and graceful exteriors to see the twisted and hideous beings that the Dark Eldar have become. Those who have chosen this grim path can continue on, or die. There is no turning back.

Dark Eldar cannot become craftworld eldar, they cannot undo the unholy vitality they have gained to stop the withering of their souls by steeping themselves in extreme sensation from the agony and suffering of others that is needed to replenish the void where their souls have begun to whither.

p.206 Rule book Dark Eldar

Unlike their craftworld brethren Dark Eldar are not psychic

This is for the person claiming battle brothers means they have fighting styles that are highly compatabile, they do not. The eldar rely on their seers predicting the outcomes before they approach a situation, including combat. The Dark Eldar do not.

p.206 RuleBook Dark Eldar

When, on occasion, their plans go awry and their surprise assault is welcomed by ready and determined resistance, the Dark Eldar rarely fade from a fight. This is very much unlike their more fickle kin, but the thrill of combat and the draw of bloodlust is powerful in the Dark Eldar.

This is for the person claiming battle brothers means they have fighting styles that are highly compatabile, they do not. It is spelled out clearly that they are very much unlike their fickle kin in battle in this regard.

If anyone has anything from the rulebook, imperial armour, apocalypse, or any of the codex's which shows otherwise please state it.

Are there mentions of Eldar and Dark Eldar working together? Yes.

Does that automatically make them battle brothers? No.

Do they utterly trust each other?

Battle Brothers have utter trust in their comrades, treating them as an extension of their own forces.

No.

Dark Eldar cannot become craftworld eldar, they cannot undo the unholy vitality they have gained to stop the withering of their souls by steeping themselves in extreme sensation from the agony and suffering of others that is needed to replenish the void where their souls have begun to whither.

Except they do. So the Codex is wrong.

blaktoof wrote:

Its also worth mentiong GW considers DoW background to be legitimate, in which case Asdrubel Vect is dead.

If your refering to DoW soulstorm then it depends on what race was the actual winner of it, it wasnt the SM since in the DoW2 storyline they mention how they lost in the soulstorm game so the Deldar could have easily been the race that officially won.

Novels are not an accurate basis for background discussion unless farseers are not psykers, chubby, child molesters, and terminator assault cannons transform into multi lasers...

spore mines must be WS4 S4 with Initiave above 1, and 2-3 attacks since they drag terminators to their death.

Novels often have things that directly contradict not only the rules of the game presented in the rulebook and codexes, but also the background presented in the rulebook and codexes.

Novels also are not legitmate 40k background as they are said to be not canon by the 40k development team.

Which is why I politely asked for anyone who has something from the rulebook or codexes that supports them being BB status to show it.

also

Except they do. So the Codex is wrong.

The section as I stated was from the rulebook not the codex. If the rulebook is "wrong" maybe the allies matrix is wrong, it is in the rulebook which you are saying is wrong.

Gav Thorpe wrote: I think that Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 have a unique advantage in the realm of tie-in backgrounds: they exist to allow personal creativity. Both are backdrops, nothing more. They were created to allow people to collect armies of toy soldiers and fight battles with them. They were conceived with the idea of the player’s creative freedom being directed but not restricted. In Warhammer you can have anything from Ogres to ninjas (and even Ninja Ogres!). Warhammer 40,000 trumpets an ‘Imperium of a Million Worlds’ precisely because that leaves room for everyone to come up with whatever they like. Hobbyists can create armies, places, worlds, colour schemes, characters and stories for themselves.

Often folks ask if Black Library books are ‘canon’. With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. There are certainly established facts – the current Emperor is Karl-Franz, the Blood Angels have red armour, Commissar Yarrick defended Hades Hive during the Second Armageddon War. However, to suggest that anything else is non-canon is a disservice to the players and authors who participate in this world. To suggest that Black Library novels are somehow of lesser relevance to the background is to imply that every player who has created a unique Space Marine chapter or invented their own Elector Count is somehow wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth. Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong.

Whether a particular author’s take on the world matches up with an individual gamer’s or readers is another matter. The fact that each of us is allowed to take possession of that world and envisage it to our own ideal means that it is inevitable our vision will sometimes clash with the vision of others. Such conflict does not render either vision obsolete.

In this regard it is the job of authors and games developers to illuminate and inspire, not to dictate. Perhaps you disagree with the portrayal of a certain faction, or a facet of their society doesn’t make sense in your version of the world. You may not like the answers presented, but in asking the question you can come up with a solution that matches your vision. As long as certain central themes and principles remain, you can pick and choose which parts you like and dislike.

The same applies to transference from Black Library back into the gaming supplements. If the developers and other creative folks believe a contribution by an author fits the bill and has an appeal to the audience, why not fold it back into the ‘game’ world – such as Gaunt’s Ghosts or characters from the Gotrek and Felix series. On the other hand, if an author has a bit of a wobbly moment, there’s no pressure to feel that it has to be accepted into the worldview promulgated by the codexes and army books. And beside, there simply isn’t enough room in those gaming books to include everything from the hundreds of novels – good, bad or indifferent as we each see them – so the decision must ultimately rest with the taste of individual readers and gamers.

I think you fail to realize your disproving your point by posting that.

I'm not. I'm simply pointing out that there is no such thing as a canon to 40K. What is presented as fluff in a rulebook or Codex is no more or less canon than what is presented in a BL novel, a comic book, a movie, a video game or a White Dwarf article.

Firstly, what Battle Brothers status means is not only willingness to work together, but ability to work together. Suppose there's an ork infestation. Now Dark and Craftworld Eldar might (in the right circumstances) both want to kill off the orks. So they get together and they speak the same language so they understand each other perfectly, they have common technological base so they know what each other's machines do and how and they share military doctrines and approaches to war. They have tens of millennia of common cultural history. Basically, they hit the battlefield together and everything just works together between them. The DE leader sees a weak-point in the ork lines and says: "send those Striking Scorpions through that culvert and strike them from the side, they'll be able to take that hill". The CWE leader sees a group of orks heading for cover and says: "send your Reavers to cut them off - they're fast enough that they'll get there first".

Now consider a set of Eldar (lets use Craftworld because they have less baggage) working with Imperial Guard for the same ork-eliminating reason. The human commander is struggling to understand what the CWE commander wants and even though the Eldar are deigning to speak Mon-Keigh for the sake of the alliance, the humans cannot read the Eldar's body language AT ALL, they are unfamiliar with what the equipment can do, the capabilities of different troop types or weapons, the Guardsmen are uneasy fighting alongside creatures that creep them out with their stillness or rapid movements or the way they keep talking in a language that the Guard don't understand. The human commander has a highly different approach to battle, the Eldar commander gets frustrated with the human commander and his troops getting in the way because they don't keep up with the rapidly developing Eldar strategies.

EVEN IF in a given case the Dark Eldar may be more likely to betray their CWE cousins in a given scenario, they can STILL work vastly more effectively together than Eldar and a completely different species such as Mon-Keigh. And its not certain that they will betray. The Dark Eldar are wild, like the Eldar of old, and CWE and DE have different approaches. But they are not intrinsically enemies. In fact, they have much in common in terms of goals - both are trying to preserve the Eldar race. The CWE may typically see the DE as reckless, and the DE may see the CWE as living half a life, never really being themselves, but neither necessarily wants to go to war because of that. Sometimes Eldar even cross over between factions The BL novels have both a CWE who joins the DE and an _incubus_ who goes to live as an Aspect Warrior. In the latter instance, he keeps his origins private, but the Exarchs (and presumably others) know and they let him live there. And when another Eldar learns the guy is a DE his reaction is not "OMG! Enemy!" but rather "this is scandalous". Much like he'd discovered someone was having an affair.

On Corsair ships, it's not uncommon for DE and CWE to mingle. A common misconception is that the CWE are "good guys", and that they must therefore be opposed to the DE who are bad guys. In fact, the CWE are not "good guys". There are canon instances of them evicting the population of entire planets for no other reason than that the world was seeded in pre-history by the Eldar and their finding humans having moved in and built cities an insult. Their disagreement with the DE approach is probably less often about the suffering of lesser races and more concern that it is living too dangerously close to the old ways.

CWE are also probably the only people who _can_ deal with the DE without ending up with a knife in the back. They're both Eldar, they're both incredibly twisty-minded. The only ones who can negotiate and play the DE at their own political games, are the CWE.

I think of it as the Craftworlders were humbled by the birth of Slaanesh, while the Dark Eldar understand their fate and are just trying to avoid it.

I think it would be funny if Tau were BB with everyone.

blaktoof wrote:
Well considering Dark Eldar cannot ally with Dark Eldar, then obviously they are not battle brothers with Dark Eldar...so yeah..

Battle Brothers
This category covers the strongest of alliances, two or more
armies striving for a common goal. Battle Brothers have utter
trust in their comrades, treating them as an extension of their
own forces. Such alliances are always voluntary, born out of an
unyielding desire for victory.


That is the basis for battle brothers. Two armies striving for a common goal that have utter trust in their comrades, treating them like an extension of their own forces. Please note it has -nothing- to do with common fighting styles.

Out of the Background information presented in this thread from the BRB/ Eldar Codex / Dark Eldar Codex the following was a lie:

-Eye of terror the Dark Eldar and Eldar along with Harlequins fought the thousand sons out of the webway.

from page 23 Eldar codex under sanctity breached-

etc.
etc.

Welcome to the horrible mess that is 40k canon. GW itself has said that there is no such thing as canon, and that you should make up your own mind instead.
Now I could start argueing your statements, or I could post all the fluff entries that support BB status, but I have a feeling that it would be wasted effort, since you wouldn't listen. And you shouldn't, in any case, as everyone has his/her own headcanon and that is just fine. This freedom is one of the best things about 40k in my opinion.
For me, the allies matrix is the deciding factor. If GW says DE and CWE are BB, than they are BB. Surely no one knows the Eldar better than GW, who created them in the first place.

You actually cannot show any background from the codex or rulebook that supports the overall common parts of both factions having battle brother status. There isn't any.

Fluff from novels may or may not have bearing on the game, usually its not. Often it doesn't match up or sync with the background detailed in sources that have rules contained within them.

As stated previously by someone other than myself Novel fluff is sometimes folded into the background of the game. The background of the game is presented in the rules and codexes for the game. If the fluff from novels were folded into the game as we currently have it, the Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Rulebook would show instances of the Eldar and Dark eldar -trusting- each other, and working alongside each other if they were really battle brothers in the background.

Of course the background doesn't mean anything in this game, all that matters when models are on the table [or off the table in reserves ] are the rules.

And yes I agree the deciding factor if someone is BB is if they are BB in the rules.

I also agree the freedom in 40k is one of the best things about 40k, people can create their own chapters, have female space marines, Orks that work alongside Necrons, etc. whatever, its a game