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 Dozer Blades wrote:
I like plasma gun, combi-plasma and attach a tech marine with another combi-plasma,.. Hits hard coming down in a drop pod.

I like to do this, but I put the squad in a Razorback with an assault cannon, and really tear up those TEQ squads. Works wonders with a Clan Raukaan detachment, because you can take 3 techmarines per MOTF.

Tactical marines are not the greatest unit in the first place, but we have to have them, or scouts. The price you pay for being generalists is that tac marines will never excel at anything.
If you take a lascannon, the rest of the unit will generally do nothing while the lascannon takes one shot a turn, and there are better ways to use 90 points.
Equipping with melta or plasma with a combi weapon might give you some added punch against TEQ's but i've always found that punching through armour is best left to dedicated units rather than the rather half assed attempt tactical marines can make.
I've had a lot of success with my imperial fists running tac squads with Heavy bolters and storm bolters (an extra marines worth of bolter shots at 12-14 inches for 5 points is a bargain) Bolter drill boosts the accuracy slightly, and volume of fire directed at the right unit can be decisive.
For tanks and MC's there is always the last resort of krak grenades and melta bombs (if you have them) but ideally you want to be using units specialised for a role, in that role. adding special weapons that do not compliment the rest of the units armament means that you end up being bad at everything. It may be my local meta, but i've found my tactical squads do significantly better when i take heavy bolters than when i take anything else

What if the 90pt lascannon armed combat squad is camping a home objective? They're hardly doing nothing.

I was wondering how a ten man tac squad would go with the grav gun-heavy bolter combination. Might experiment with this one.

 cobweb wrote:
What if the 90pt lascannon armed combat squad is camping a home objective? They're hardly doing nothing.

I was wondering how a ten man tac squad would go with the grav gun-heavy bolter combination. Might experiment with this one.

True, you will be holding a backfield objective, however i find that scouts with sniper rifles and camo cloaks, in terrain bolstered by the thunderfire tech marine do the job much better, and while there are units (and armies) that can largely ignore cover, against anything else its going to be a 2+/3+ cover save depending on what your troops are hiding in.

Grav guns, as a salvo weapon, aren't the most efficient choice on non relentless troops, which is why you will most often encounter them on bikes. its also the reason people choose to take plasma guns in tac squads because they fire at full effectiveness whether you move or stand still

I think Sniper Scouts are largely a waste because 5 models firing at BS3 arent going to do gak in a game. At least the 5 man Lascannon marines have a solid armor save as backfield objective holders and can still keep on taking potshots at tanks all game. Or if armed with the HB, they are far more dangerous to enemy infantry than the sniper scouts - besides, they also benefit from the techmarine's bolstered defences. It's just that the scouts have +1 cover save while the marines have +1 armor save. The only reason I field sniper scouts is because the models look cool, they can infiltrate and because they perform reasonably well against high toughness opponents.

 Sir Arun wrote:
I think Sniper Scouts are largely a waste because 5 models firing at BS3 arent going to do gak in a game. At least the 5 man Lascannon marines have a solid armor save as backfield objective holders and can still keep on taking potshots at tanks all game. Or of armed with the HB, they are far more dangerous to enemy infantry than the sniper scouts - besides, they also benefit from the techmarine's bolstered defences. It's just that the scouts have +1 cover save while the marines have +1 armor save. The only reason I field sniper scouts is because the models look cool, they can infiltrate and because they perform reasonably well against high toughness opponents.

I can't say i disagree with anything you said. Marines generally lack any efficient backfield holders, and tac squads are a really horrible unit to have to take as troops. If they could take 2 specials, or 2 heavy weapons it would be an entirely different story. Only Templars with the crusader squads really have a good troops choice (bikes excepted).

However, in my experience, Sniper scouts, holding a backfield objective, with decent range, precision shots and of course rending and pinning (LOL) can be very disruptive. and as you said, they can infiltrate if you want them to. whereas if you take a combat squad with a lascannon its almost like pigeon holing them into a role they arent very good at.
its more pronounced with imperial fists, because IF devestators, while not scoring most of the time, can have 4 lascannons with tank hunter for 220 points (full squad), as opposed to 2x 5man tactical squads with the same number of models and only 2 lascannons without tankhunters for 180 points.

i guess we will just have to suffer having mediocre troops choices and make the best of it we can

Scouts are also cheaper and have no wasted fire if they are all identically armed.

madtankbloke wrote:
i guess we will just have to suffer having mediocre troops choices and make the best of it we can

Ehh as an Eldar player I can't stress enough of how our troops choices suck. Guardians with their 12" range and 5+ armor suck at both staying back and moving up front; Dire Avengers are slightly better in both areas but costlier and even less viable as backfield objective holders, and that only leaves us with Rangers, who are essentially BS4 SM scouts but at S3, T3, 5+ armor, no access to a heavy weapon and no ATSKNF.

I'd take dire avengers over tac marines, if only for their efficacy vs teqs and MCs. Being able to deliver 100% firepower at 18" and then running after the fact is very, very nice.

Don't forget, you don't have to place "backfield" objectives. You can place them forward as much as possible.

Scouts:
I have been putting Heavy Bolters with both my Crimson Fist Bolter Scouts and Sniper Scouts. It has been working well for me.
Bolter Scouts: I tend to be quasi-mobile and in non-objective games I outflank with them. With the Re-Rolls of 1s really compensates for their BS3 and really helps with Snap-Firing the Heavy Bolter.
Sniper Scouts: They have the same range as the Sniper Rifles and extra 2 shots and once more I usual hit with all three thanks to Chapter Tactics. I know I don’t get the Precision Shots or Pinning, but against most troops it can actually kill more than the Sniper Rifles if I don’t roll a lot of Rending Shots.

Tactical Squads:
Flamer/Heavy Bolter: To me is sort of a waist of shots unless you are Salamanders and Planning on using them as an Objective Holders.
Grav-Gun/Heavy Bolter: Looks to be counterintuitive combination. The rate of fire is impressive, but when the Grave-Gun comes into its prime, MEQs/TEQs, The Heavy Bolter looses its Penetration and when dealing with hordes like Guard and Orks the Gave-Gun losses it’s punch.
Melta-Gun/Heavy Bolter: Similar to the Flamer, works best with Salamander [with Vulcan], but you might as well take the Multi-Melta at that point.
Plasma-Gun/Heavy Bolter: This looks to be the best Combination. While the Heavy Bolter does not have the AP of the Plasma Gun it will force Saves. It also still can keep up a good Rate of Fire while on the move. Once more a good choice for the right Chapter Tactics like Ultra Marines or Imperial Fist. With the Plasma Gun Iron Fist might also be a good choice.

Devastator Squads: Either take 4 or none, mixing only works with Long Fangs.
Devastators: Most people don’t think about Heavy Bolter Devastators, but they can be for a lack of a better word Devastating. A 10 man Devastator Squad wit 4 Heavy Bolters can put out an amazing amount of fire. This may seems like a waste vs. MEQs, vs. most Non-MEQ Armies it can be murder. Look at 36”, that’s 12 Shots, at 24” it becomes 18 Shots and at 12” it becomes 24 Shots, more if you are babysitting a Quad Gun. Once more Chapter Tactics: Imperial Fist almost guarantees everything hitting. Chapter Tactics: Ultramarines Relentless for one Turn [Two with Calgar] you a good walking firebase.
Centurion Devastators: Twin linked Heavy Bolters and a Hurricane Bolter, not much more is needed to make them a good mobile Fire base, only the Grav-Cannons is better unless you are facing Orks.

Martel732 wrote:
I'd take dire avengers over tac marines, if only for their efficacy vs teqs and MCs. Being able to deliver 100% firepower at 18" and then running after the fact is very, very nice.

Don't forget, you don't have to place "backfield" objectives. You can place them forward as much as possible.

Plus, the whole thing with the Wave Serpent being what it is.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Look at 36”, that’s 12 Shots, at 24” it becomes 18 Shots and at 12” it becomes 24 Shots

what?

 Sir Arun wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Look at 36”, that’s 12 Shots, at 24” it becomes 18 Shots and at 12” it becomes 24 Shots

what?

I think he’s counting the bolters from the rest of the Dev squad. Which is one perk of using them for anti infantry jobs, rather then anti tank. All your extra wound bolter brothers get to contribute, rather then just cheerlead and suck wounds.

 Sir Arun wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Look at 36”, that’s 12 Shots, at 24” it becomes 18 Shots and at 12” it becomes 24 Shots

what?

36" 4 HB x3 3 shots = 12 Shots
24" 4 HB x3 3 shots = 12 Shots + 6 Bolters Shots = 18 Shots
12" 4 HB x3 3 shots = 12 Shots + 6 Rapidfire Bolters Shots = 24 Shots
I included the Bolters becouse most everything a Heavy Bolter can hurt a Bolt Gun will hurt but AV11.

Ah, my confusion came when you previously said take 4 or none with devastators, thinking you were referring to a 5 man dev squad with 4 heavy weapons instead of a full size one.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Ah, my confusion came when you previously said take 4 or none with devastators, thinking you were referring to a 5 man dev squad with 4 heavy weapons instead of a full size one.

I forget sometimes that my local meta things nothing of taking 10 man Devistator Squads. It come in usfull when we get the "Big Guns", we combat squads for more scoring units.