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pejota wrote:
If you buy stuff from the internet/ebay you have to pay to use the table OR pay his markup on the item as if you bought it from him. For example, a guy got a great deal on some sisters on ebay. After he paid the markup, he still paid less than if he bought them outright and the store owner was cool with him using them in the store.

Pay his markup? That is a total dick move right there. What if I bring in an army that I bought long before his store was even opened? I love the brilliant things store owners come up with to keep their stores open, that ultimately will instead make people not want to come to their store anymore. I buy something every time I am in my FLGS to support his business. That doesn't mean I am beholden to covering his bottom line from that point on just because I am a customer there. I am allowed to spend my money wherever I choose and if a store owner tried to pull that markup crap on my I'd immediately find some place else to spend the money I was giving to them. It is that simple.

I've got no problems with stores charging fees for their table usage, even if it is you have to buy something in the store if you are there using the tables. I get that and I am fine with that concept. Heck the owner of my FLGS stated that he makes drastically more money selling sodas, snacks and candies to those playing the store than he ever makes selling the minis they are using in their games...

Skriker

Paying his markup is downright stupid IMO. But if the charge to use the table isn't much, I'd probably just do that and instead never buy anything in the store, lol.

The "markup" thing is just silly though. If I'm collecting an army that is vastly more expensive than other armies to collect, damned right I'm going to try and get it cheaper online. What about if it's something like DKoK?

I'm happy to support my FLGS buying random stuff while I'm playing games or even by paying for a table, but having a "you must buy" quota is stupid and will only serve to push people away from the store.

I still think smart stores do the snacks and drinks thing. Maybe it doesn't make as much money as I think it does, but I'll often spend an order of magnitude more on food in a store in an evening than I would be willing to pay for the tables in that same evening. I often stop by one particular store with is on my way home from work and buy a drink or a snack without even using the tables simply because it's conveniently located and I can have a chat or buy a paint I need or whatever on my way home.

The main good ideas I think for making sure you're making money off tables (if you feel the advertising isn't enough) is...
1. Charge a flat fee for table use.
2. Sell food/drink.
3. Charge a membership.
4. Charge a fee which comes with a voucher that lets you buy things from the store. So if it costs $5 to use the table, you get a $5 voucher that you can spend in store.

It is the norm here. We pay for 1 hour. Our shops are very small so even when we have to pay around 3-4$ , there is still more people wanting to play then tables.

1. Set up your own tables at home.
2. Charge half the price local GW does for using them.
3. Profit.

Magicly build a house where a 4x6 or 4x4 table fits in without killing parents, children or taking over the home of your grand parents and dedicting it only to gaming AND not making more money out it with renting it .

This is why you always build a house with space for a pool table

One thing I've always wondered about this, I see people talking about store owners being annoyed if you bring in models you didnt buy that their store, and with this markup thing as well... how exactly does the store owner know if you bought from there or not? Do they really remember every single customer ever? And there's not really any proof anyway.
And as its been said before, unless you are shouting to other people in the store about how cheap you bought your models elsewhere, it shouldn't really cause any problems, after that then its just down to the store to sort out how they get customers in their favour.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
This is why you always build a house with space for a pool table

Definately, everyone in Auz is building houses haha. Ill be living there soon and the plan is definitely to build a games room.

I do think its important for people to try make clubs and so on though. If you have enough people just start getting everyone to contribute towards getting scenery, (most halls and so on have tables already). Work out how much it will be to hire the hall weekly and split the cost. If its pretty low then as your club grows the extra money brought in by new comers can go towards new scenery and so on. Most of the clubs in my Area are set up like that and we have a huge gaming session once a week, and every month we have a huge sunday event (like swap meets, tournaments, games display day and so on) and people come from all over the place to see whats happening.

Its great and we get the local hobby stores to contribute and we have club cards with them and so on (as a result many people buy from them).

Its hard work to begin with but as long as you got a bunch of guys willing to help share the responsibility and are organised then its well worth the effort. Plus the money you pay goes towards cool events, prizes and terrain that people want.

If you need 20 people to pay $4 each then 35 people come, that extra 15 people worth of money goes towards more club benefits that everyone can use, rather than go to someones pocket. Also most halls are bigger than what you need so tables arent an issue (depends on the place you are playing in).

I have belonged to 2 clubs and both where set up like this. One at college and one in my current town and its great as i dont ever run into paying money for tables i get no return from later down the track. Even easier when its run by a committee.

For those Americans out there yes this sounds very communist but it works out great. Because its not profit driven you can also kick out those players that ruin it for everybody and so on Especially when everybody becomes a community and more different games start getting played. If done right it becomes a gaming utopia.

So I've been seeing a lot of support for paying to play. I can understand this at FLGS which are small businesses but were talking about a GW retail store.

I will say I did like the idea of the club pass!!

As far as the store owner who is marking thing up. Stop going to their store.. that's not only bad business, but that's treating your customers (aka your source of income) like crap!

When I'm looking for a FLGS I like them to have the following criteria and in my experience FLGS that offer the following stay in business.

1. Great Customer service- This is number 1 for me for two reasons. First I'm a Assistant Customer Service manager my self I know how important happy customers are. Second I'm giving you my money that I worked hard for. I don't want to be treated like tagged cattle or a walking pay check.
2. Open play space with limited rules- Now of course you have your typical no swearing, no stealing, no fighting, ect.. rules. However I've been to stores that are strict on what you can play in their stores. "If we don't sell it you can't play it." That mentality has killed many of game stores in my area. I play more then GW and PP games I'm a historical gamer and finding play space for historical games isn't easy because you tend to need A LOT of space. Now most game stores are happy to provide you a place to play because it could introduce a new game there for demand for a new product which means more money. However game stores that have the we don't sell it limitation are missing out and they tend to falter as a result.
3. My last criteria NO GAME TAKE PRESENCE OVER ANY OTHER GAME JUST BECAUSE IT SELLS MORE!! I can't tell you how many times I've been asked to leave during OPEN PLAY or MTG night because I wasn't playing Magic even tho Magic players don't use the miniatures tables because you have to stand at them. The game store that will remain unnamed has undergone some changes and this is no longer an issue. Any who back to my point it doesn't matter what game I'm playing. I almost ALWAYS buy my product from the stores I play at there for I can support them and have a place to play in return. I should have just as much accuses to play space as any other game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swastakowey wrote:

I do think its important for people to try make clubs and so on though. If you have enough people just start getting everyone to contribute towards getting scenery, (most halls and so on have tables already). Work out how much it will be to hire the hall weekly and split the cost. If its pretty low then as your club grows the extra money brought in by new comers can go towards new scenery and so on. Most of the clubs in my Area are set up like that and we have a huge gaming session once a week, and every month we have a huge sunday event (like swap meets, tournaments, games display day and so on) and people come from all over the place to see whats happening.

Its great and we get the local hobby stores to contribute and we have club cards with them and so on (as a result many people buy from them).

Its hard work to begin with but as long as you got a bunch of guys willing to help share the responsibility and are organised then its well worth the effort. Plus the money you pay goes towards cool events, prizes and terrain that people want.

If you need 20 people to pay $4 each then 35 people come, that extra 15 people worth of money goes towards more club benefits that everyone can use, rather than go to someones pocket. Also most halls are bigger than what you need so tables arent an issue (depends on the place you are playing in).

I have belonged to 2 clubs and both where set up like this. One at college and one in my current town and its great as i dont ever run into paying money for tables i get no return from later down the track. Even easier when its run by a committee.

For those Americans out there yes this sounds very communist but it works out great. Because its not profit driven you can also kick out those players that ruin it for everybody and so on Especially when everybody becomes a community and more different games start getting played. If done right it becomes a gaming utopia.

I'm a Yankee and I support this idea. It's actually more socalist then communist because it's rules based on mutual agreement. Don't forget our most popular sport is a small scale socialism lol.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
This is why you always build a house with space for a pool table

I don't know how it is where you live , but here only the very very very rich people actualy own a house .

Because its not profit driven you can also kick out those players that ruin it for everybody and so on

so you could have 4-5 groups join and then have 2 biggest groups kick everyone out , but keep the money or you could even have one group that is friends with the club owners and make him kick out people that paid , but you don't like . I see a problem with that .

My FLGS makes you pay £7.50 to have a 6x4 table for a few hours and I think that's fair to them. They could be using the space for pay to play board games, and they have to go through the effort of setting up the tables and stuff as well. Aside from this it's also modelling space that we're using to game on. My FLGS is very cool though, the guy there gives us a discount because me and my friends rock up so often, down to about £4.50 for 3 or 4 hours.
You can even rent the entire place out, for the day for £30.00! xD That was my birthday sorted :3
I think it's fair for GW to charge you to use /their/ tables for gaming on. They're not a public service, they don't have to let you use their tables. If someone came into a gym and asked to use the machines for free they'd be rejected, you have to pay to use the machines because they've gone and bought them. And it's the same with gaming tables.
A guy I once saw said 'One thing I've always noticed. Gamers aren't buyers. You have this group of guys that go into the store to, I dunno, talk, and play games, but you /never/ see them buy anything! And it's losing people money'. This is my point.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

I think it's fair for GW to charge you to use /their/ tables for gaming on. They're not a public service, they don't have to let you use their tables. If someone came into a gym and asked to use the machines for free they'd be rejected, you have to pay to use the machines because they've gone and bought them. And it's the same with gaming tables.
A guy I once saw said 'One thing I've always noticed. Gamers aren't buyers. You have this group of guys that go into the store to, I dunno, talk, and play games, but you /never/ see them buy anything! And it's losing people money'. This is my point.

Heres the problem with that statement Gyms product is their equipment.

I also DON'T HAVE to buy GW products to play their games or just in general but I do. All I'm asking if a place to meet other players and play the game they sell. This isn't a "public service" it's just common since business. Its' a "Buy our stuff and we will take care of you" mentality. The place where I work we bag orders, carry items out to cars for customers who request it, special order items we don't have, offer comps on items to further future sales. I could go on, and we do all of this to provide a free service to our customers (AKA OUR SOURCE OF INCOME) in hopes that the positive experience bring them back into our store. Trust me we are blowing away our competition except Wal-Mart.

So lets enter the mind set of a person who plays GW games and only has a GW store to play at. So I'm coming into your store paying lots of money for your products with the impression I can come back here to enjoy your product. I come in one day to do so having been a loyal customer and I find out I must now shell out more money to play in your store. So you roped me in with the impression that I can return here and take advantage of your product free of charge, but now your telling me I have to give you more money to play it!?

Humm whats that PP games only require a kitchen table and they can be played for about half the cost? I think I'm going to start playing warmachine...

think about it... It would be like a restaurant charging you extra because you wanted to dine in.

I am wondering to the GW store that charges for the "mark up" fee, if he pays taxes on it.

If not, that would mean GW is now making a profit and not paying taxes on it. This will GW a bad name. I thing Customer Service will really want to know about this store.

Other wise their Lawyers will be doing something else than C&D letters and fighting ChapterHouse in court.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
I think it's fair for GW to charge you to use /their/ tables for gaming on. They're not a public service, they don't have to let you use their tables. If someone came into a gym and asked to use the machines for free they'd be rejected, you have to pay to use the machines because they've gone and bought them. And it's the same with gaming tables.

It's not the same as a gym, a gym's only purpose is to get you to pay to use their machines, GW sells models, which can be used on a table.

A guy I once saw said 'One thing I've always noticed. Gamers aren't buyers. You have this group of guys that go into the store to, I dunno, talk, and play games, but you /never/ see them buy anything! And it's losing people money'. This is my point.

I think this is mostly a destructive mindset. I don't really mind people charging for tables, but this "it's losing people money" idea is codswallop if you ask me. Anyone and everyone is a potential customer and having people in your store is a good thing not a bad thing. Other stores go to great lengths just to get you in the door, knowing you might not be there to buy anything but just by being there you MIGHT buy something and you also encourage other people to wander in who themselves might buy something. If they're being obnoxious that's another matter, but for the most part having people in the store is not a bad thing.

BUT, even talking about all of that, I don't mind people charging for tables, however the supposed policy of the OP is...

"So my local GW just started a new policy whereby you have to spend £10 for every 2 hours you want to spend in the store"

That's a stupid policy if you ask me. One, they ARE an actual GW store rather than an FLGS. They should be trying their best to get and maintain customers, not shoo them away. 2nd, the "you must buy X amount every Y amount of time" is just silly and can't be enforced in any positive way. What if I just bought $1000 of GW product last week? I'm sure as hell not going to be buying another $20 every 2 hours just to stay in the store. Also, again, this is a GW not an FLGS. GW corporate would be (or should be) just as happy to have someone buy $1000 online as $1000 in store, maybe the manager wouldn't be as happy, but if GW had any sense, they'd realise that a sale is a sale and primarily use the stores to encourage gamers and gaming so they get more sales, regardless of the outlet. GW should be encouraging their managers to get as many people in stores.

allseeking gets a Exalt!!

Hey....I was pretty much called a dirty liar when I started a similar thread several months ago!!!!!!


I used to work part time running GW games at a FLGS. I can remember the Mechwarrior people coming in for tournaments, carrying boxes they bought off the internet and building their armies there. Basically not buying the product from the store who was running tournaments for them. The store owner eventually got rid of gaming because of the headaches.

Gamers are cheap and usually don't show any loyalty to the stores. This saddens me.

General Hobbs wrote:



Gamers are cheap and usually don't show any loyalty to the stores. This saddens me.

Pay where you play. Even if you don't need to buy anything, buy at least a pot of paint or a paintbrush or something. Should always support your FLGS.

This thread reminds of a moment back at this GW a friend and I ran into on a road trip. We stop in thinking we could play a game, but then the manager says that we first have to buy something before we can play, so we buy a paint each and keep going about our business. Then he says that you have to have the relevant codices and rulebooks, we told him we know our books by heart and have them in the car, he tells us we can't play unless we go get them. So we go grab the books from the car and try to continue with the game, then the redshirt says that we have to buy something before we play. We ask why since we already bought paints, he says they have to be $30 or more. At this point we were real irritated since there was plenty of other annoying things that came up like the usual humping to get us to buy 3 BRBs we already have etc. So my buddy decides to pull out his ipad and purchases an entire daemons army of around $800 right in front of the redshirt and even shows him that he was doing it. Later we walked out the door after having a good laugh and went to the building that was directly upstairs where there was a gaming club filled to the brim with players while unsuprisingly the GW right below was nearly empty.

 Psy-Titan wrote:
So my local GW just started a new policy whereby you have to spend £10 for every 2 hours you want to spend in the store- whether it be using a table for a game or just modelling/painting. As someone who is in the process of building up the 4000pts worth of models which I have already bought and so will not be receiving this store credit I am pretty annoyed. I like to use the tables for gaming and painting because it makes the hobby more social, and besides that, there is the fact I've been buying models from GW for 20 years now and apparently that counts for nothing and I'm effectively banned from the store unless I buy more stuff. I should have my own seat! Anyone else experienced this policy and what do you think about it?

From that shop ?

I have often wondered why gaming stores are not like snooker/pool halls. Tables with terrain on where you put your money in the slot and the lights come on. Hell they could even record games to dvd for a small fee. Vending machines for snacks etc, and small tables for people to chat or play cards.

That is actually not a terrible idea... maybe make it $5 an hour or something, and the terrain is attached to the table in some manner so it can be moved, but doesn't get walked off with.

 Psienesis wrote:
That is actually not a terrible idea... maybe make it $5 an hour or something, and the terrain is attached to the table in some manner so it can be moved, but doesn't get walked off with.

Yup might make the difference between a FLGS closing or staying open. It could even get to be a night out for the family.

I'm still a fan of the "pay for credit" approach. IF you are going to charge for tables because you feel that you are losing money to people not buying in your store, then at least take the money they pay for the table time, and set it up as credit that they can then use at your store. You make money and all the player really loses out on is the 20-30% he'd save from buying online. In return, he supports the place where he plays.

To me, charging for table space MIGHT be a good idea in some situations, like with a gaming club or something.

But the biggest problem I have with this is that by charging for table space in this manner, GW is basically double dipping. Most people play primarily at gaming stores, so without gaming store tables, the hobby might not even exist. A lot of folks might not be able to find somebody to play at their house or wherever.

By charging for table space, GW is basically saying "I'm charging you to use our product that you already paid (a high price) for", which is ludicrous. Even industries where this is the norm like cell phones and automobiles offer something extra. GW is charging you just to use a product you already bought, we NO special features. It's bad, and if GW did that to me I would not only not play there, but also buy my miniatures at an FLGS that doesn't charge for table space. Luckily we don't have a GW in my town and both my FLGSs with wargaming tables have free tables, although they do have plenty of tournaments and special events that you have to pay to enter, which is just fine.

Davor wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:



Gamers are cheap and usually don't show any loyalty to the stores. This saddens me.

Pay where you play. Even if you don't need to buy anything, buy at least a pot of paint or a paintbrush or something. Should always support your FLGS.

I have enough wargaming crap in my house without buying stuff I don't even need

And honestly, that's just silly anyway. I'd rather just give the guy $3 to use the table than buy a $6 paint that I don't need and he only makes $2 off anyway.

My GW has people in there constantly. It's a really friendly environment that encourages you to go in and do some painting or play a game on their tables. In my experience this leads to people (myself included) buying stuff from the store even if they could have got it cheaper somewhere else or didn't actually need to buy it at all.

Maybe its because I'm in Australia where space is not exactly a premium (except for GW stores) but I still can't understand how a few bucks to use a table can possibly make you more in the long run than the goodwill free tables will.

People here aren't frothing at the mouth to play in stores and I've never (again except the at the new GW stores) had to wait for a table to become available.

Giving me a free table gets me in your store, which allows me to buy things from you. Charging me to pay for the tables will either A) send me out of your store to another where I can play for free or B) tells me that as long as I pay your fee means I am adequately supporting your store and am under no obligation to buy actual models from you.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
My GW has people in there constantly. It's a really friendly environment that encourages you to go in and do some painting or play a game on their tables. In my experience this leads to people (myself included) buying stuff from the store even if they could have got it cheaper somewhere else or didn't actually need to buy it at all.

This is exactly what my the GW store does in my area. That is why I go out of my way to buy stuff there even though I could get it cheaper elsewhere. Create a place where people want to play and they will support it.

 Glaiceana wrote:
One thing I've always wondered about this, I see people talking about store owners being annoyed if you bring in models you didnt buy that their store, and with this markup thing as well... how exactly does the store owner know if you bought from there or not? Do they really remember every single customer ever?

Every customer? Only if you have an exceptional memory. But most of them? Sure. Certainly the regulars.

The store I worked at had customer accounts set up in the computer we used for a till. Customer purchases were recorded against their account, so we could see who was buying what. Theoretically so we knew who to target for new releases, but someone could easily use that sort of inormation to note, for example, that the guy with 6 drop pods on the table didn't buy any of them in-store.

But even without that I generally had a pretty good idea of what the regulars had bought, without specifically trying to memorise anything. It sort of comes with just taking an interest and getting to know your customers, which is a fairly important part of running a small business even if you're not going to try to hold their purchases from elsewhere against them.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
My GW has people in there constantly. It's a really friendly environment that encourages you to go in and do some painting or play a game on their tables. In my experience this leads to people (myself included) buying stuff from the store even if they could have got it cheaper somewhere else or didn't actually need to buy it at all.

Totally, I agree. The guys at my local GW have always been heaps friendly. You could argue they push the product too much, but maybe I'm just thicker skinned than your average nerd because it mostly just rolls off my back.

But they've always been friendly and encouraged people to be in the store doing things, whether it's using the tables to game or painting. On multiple occasions they've given me free models (random ones they have lying around) to test a scheme. As much as I hate GW corporate, I've had no problems with my local GW and have on several occasions bought stuff from them simply because I was there and they were helpful. If they'd been obnoxious like the OP's GW, I probably would never set foot in the store let alone buy anything from them.

I have to say I'm against a club pass type set up. Not that I'm actually against the idea, but because I know what it'd end up doing. It'd make it too dense for new players to get in, because when you have a paid membership, even at $5 or so, people feel like they have an obligation to themselves (which is the biggest motivational obligation type) to get their money's worth.

That would mean you'd have an increase at WAAC gamers, and anyone playing "just for fun" would get laughed out. I am lucky that our FLGS only has a few WAAC guys and even then, they are really into 40k so if you ask them to bring a fluffy list because you just want to have fun, they'll usually oblige. And for the record, I consider them friends and want them to get in the types of games they'd rather play, too, so I've told at least one of them to bring a list, quote, "I have no chance of beating." He thrashed me. We had fun.

Everyone who does anything competitive for long enough has the desire to win, I get that. I just wish the rules in 40k were written better and GW actively updated errata and FAQs to clarify things so people would hopefully stop (or at least would be less likely to) actively seeking loopholes to gain unfair advantages against their opponents rather than to play within the game's intentions, which are actually usually pretty fun games.

 loki old fart wrote:

I have often wondered why gaming stores are not like snooker/pool halls. Tables with terrain on where you put your money in the slot and the lights come on. Hell they could even record games to dvd for a small fee. Vending machines for snacks etc, and small tables for people to chat or play cards.

A fine idea, would be pretty cool that.

I think the whole paying for table time concept depends on context. In the above example it's obviously fine. It's also more justifiable if it's a supply/demand thing, and certainly at a FLGS I'd have less issue with it than at a GW store, who really should be busting a gut to get you into playing their products rather than someone else's. That being said I'd never begrudge paying a deposit of some kind, which you'd lose if you wrecked a scenery piece or the like. Just so that people don't take the utter proverbial with the right to free game.

The notion of paying for a markup on minis obtained elsewhere as outlined earlier tho...that would just turn me off right there, even if the gamer is still notionally 'in the black' paying it.

Gaming clubs - a lot of work but can be excellent if run properly.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
My GW has people in there constantly. It's a really friendly environment that encourages you to go in and do some painting or play a game on their tables. In my experience this leads to people (myself included) buying stuff from the store even if they could have got it cheaper somewhere else or didn't actually need to buy it at all.

I couldn't say it better myself. Despite how skewed our pricing can seem, I honestly don't mind so much because it provides a great environment to game and hobby up a storm in. I'm even so known by a couple of the guys and the first thing they ask is what I'm working on in-store today.

Well, unless I'm bringing in my Battlefoam case, then they know I'm just looking to play some games and they're cool with that.

I'm definitely a big fan of the pay where you play mentality, even if it does cost you a little extra in the long run. Charging for club entrance when it's a non-official thing? No problems; these people have gone out of their way to set things up and it mostly covers rental costs for the venue. In a store dedicated? Would be a bit debatable for me I would say. But I also shop in the store so I probably wouldn't even notice too much.