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I have never been to either of the two GW stores in this country but what I hear from the people who have been to them, they have always had a fee for using the tables. You book a table in advance and then pay a rental fee to use the table for one match. I cant check if it is true though as the stores are half way across the country from me. But I have no reason to not trust the people who said thats how they work.

My FLGS charges a little fee for tables as well. Unless you are a member of the store's Warhammer club. In that case the tables are free, but you have to pay a small fee to be a member.

Wow, fees to use tables, that's annoying, especially if you had bought things there. No store I have ever played at does this nor would I patronize a store that did. Playing a game with a well painted army is free advertising for the product and I couldn't tell you how many times kids who wandered into the store would wander over and watch what we were doing and occasionally they would be back with a new army in hand a few weeks later.

If it was the only store in the area then its time to make your own terrain and start your own group at someone's house. Show your opinion of the store with your wallet and buy online or somewhere else. Dirtbags who charge for table space deserve to go out of business.

Do the charge the MTG players and so forth or is it only the wargamers? That would be something to find out.
Might be time to start buying online and playing at home. After the shop has to close it's doors, the next person to make the venture could learn from their mistake.
Ahh, just realized it was an actual GW instead of an indie. Definately fishy and worth speaking to corporate. Maybe e-mail them the question so you have a "paper trail" and it cant be denied like it could if you called them on the phone. More official and less likely for them to deny it.

It might also be an idea to use a tall models case as a portable table. If all else fails, bring in a folding chair and a TV tray to paint.

I find it funny how many stores seem to think its okay to charge for tables or other such nonsense because you aren't buying figures from them, but don't offer a discount on the figures. My answer to that would be something like "You offer me a 20% discount on GW stuff and I'll only buy from you".

 phatonic wrote:
Wow wow wow... can they do that? i have never heard anything like this..then again our store aint that big... but we have gaming days but not open days we got clubs for that gotta hear with our manager about it. Where's this store you talking about?

Stores in australia can kick you out at a whim.

I'm pretty sure it's similar in UK. They can kick you out if you're not buying.

I usually try to buy something every time I go to GW. I don't know; I guess I just like the staffers. I try to keep it cheap, and make sure that it's something I or my friends can use, but usually I have a new or in the process army in the works, so there's always something for me to buy.

I think what makes this an issue is that people like the opportunity to give back to a store that provides goods / facilities / a meeting place they like, on their own terms.

Store owners sometimes feel that there are sufficient people that take advantage of the facilities but do not provide sufficient "payback" or worse yet; displace good paying customers.

Trying to find a means to take-in revenue while encouraging "cheap" individuals to go hang out at another venue is what all this is about.

I would have a policy that anyone that has at least bought over $20 in the last week has fair use of the tables, free first time use (while allowing for booking ahead). I would also quietly tally up who are my top 5 customers and ensure they get free cool stuff on occasion.

Wow, ten pounds per guy per table? So twenty pounds per two hour game? That seems a little steep.

My local FLGS has free play but, honestly, I'd rather they switched to a pay to play system depending on what my money bought for me. As long as it was a reasonable price of say $20 for a table for the evening I'd be fine. The problem with the no pay system we have now is that the terrain gets disrespected way too much. A fee would be welcomed by me as long as it helped correct this situation. Similarly, as long as the playing area was not allowed to be a hangout for loud non-gaming people. I'd happily pay a few bucks for a more quiet atmosphere. But hey, all stores are different and each have their own quirks.

Davor wrote:
I am wondering to the GW store that charges for the "mark up" fee, if he pays taxes on it.

If not, that would mean GW is now making a profit and not paying taxes on it. This will GW a bad name. I thing Customer Service will really want to know about this store.

Other wise their Lawyers will be doing something else than C&D letters and fighting ChapterHouse in court.

The store with the markup is not a GW store, but the taxes question is an interesting one. Those who are annoyed by the practice could always describe it to the tax man and see if the store owner has been claiming said income on his taxes for the store.

Skriker

Lots of interesting points in this thread.

While I agree that a store should not "charge" directly for its tables, every time I play at a store, I try to buy something there.

Dice, paints, a model, anything - to help support the place dedicating sq footage to the game.

I can understand the perspective of the game store owner - those tables and the space the occupy cost him money - if you are not buying products in the store, then he is losing money on the space.

I do agree that some of the....tactics...in getting those sales listed in this thread would cause me to NOT buy things in those stores, but overall, I try to support the stores I play at.

davethepak wrote:
I can understand the perspective of the game store owner - those tables and the space the occupy cost him money - if you are not buying products in the store, then he is losing money on the space.

It's not quite that simple, though.

The purpose of that space is to encourage people to send time in the store in the hope that while they are there, they will buy stuff. But that doesn't mean that everyone who uses the tables needs to buy something every time they come into the store in order for that to be effective (although it might be the ideal, it's simply not realistic). Having a thriving gaming community in your store is going to encourage sales, even if some of the individual people in it aren't buying anything... others will be.

 insaniak wrote:

davethepak wrote:
I can understand the perspective of the game store owner - those tables and the space the occupy cost him money - if you are not buying products in the store, then he is losing money on the space.

It's not quite that simple, though.

The purpose of that space is to encourage people to send time in the store in the hope that while they are there, they will buy stuff. But that doesn't mean that everyone who uses the tables needs to buy something every time they come into the store in order for that to be effective (although it might be the ideal, it's simply not realistic). Having a thriving gaming community in your store is going to encourage sales, even if some of the individual people in it aren't buying anything... others will be.

totally agree - a game store owner wants to create an environment where players want to come ....AND buy stuff.

Good will and community is wonderful...but they have to buy things to pay rent, and rent is charged by the square foot.

This is why I support the stores I play at. Do I buy stuff on ebay, or second hand? Of course, I do - I am not a charity - but on the same token, when I do play the rare game at a store (I have a game room in my house) I try to make sure I buy something.
Now, the main game store in my area I also play other games at as well (they have more than just wargames) - so they have a good selection - the last time I played a game at the store (it was either zombicide, or 40k) I bought a new Xwing mini.

The point is, stores have to make money - the money to pay rent, utilities, invnetory and labor does not come from people hanging out - it comes from sales.

A good store will promote having a community, and treat the players well and try to attract them (contests, leagues, bulliten board, message groups, friendly people, etc.) ...but goodwill does not pay the bills.

 Grey Templar wrote:
They are perfectly free to charge for the space.

Its a dick move but perfectly legal.

I never pay to play unless its a tournament but that is just me.


A better move is to have drinks and snacks for sale. Its a sneaky way to get some extra money off of people without looking like a jerk. Just about everyone will have some loose change in their pockets and its far easier to seperate them from that for a soda than it is to charge them to play.

Profit margin on snacks is also pretty huge. You can get upwards of 80% pure profit on them.

1st of all, did anyone contact corp to see if this is legit?

2nd, if it is not legit, then NO it is NOT perfectly legal!

3rd, if a GW manager/emp sells candy & soda in a store, they could get in serious trouble, if not fired. It is not allowed by policy & if someone was to get ill, they could sue the bejesus outta GW since they do not have a food (sales) permit....

I think this one location has a crooked manager for charging...

Well this is a table edition, makes sense to charge for tables

 bu11etmagn3tt wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
They are perfectly free to charge for the space.

Its a dick move but perfectly legal.

I never pay to play unless its a tournament but that is just me.


A better move is to have drinks and snacks for sale. Its a sneaky way to get some extra money off of people without looking like a jerk. Just about everyone will have some loose change in their pockets and its far easier to seperate them from that for a soda than it is to charge them to play.

Profit margin on snacks is also pretty huge. You can get upwards of 80% pure profit on them.

1st of all, did anyone contact corp to see if this is legit?
2nd, if it is not legit, then NO it is NOT perfectly legal!

3rd, if a GW manager/emp sells candy & soda in a store, they could get in serious trouble, if not fired. It is not allowed by policy & if someone was to get ill, they could sue the bejesus outta GW since they do not have a food (sales) permit....

I think this one location has a crooked manager for charging...

I don't think it's necessarily that "they're charging". From what I understand they cannot do anything not associated with an item sale there, but instead they make it so that you buy something(or somethings) that day which equal the dollar amount the manager sets and you get the table time.

The OP stated that he had 4000 points of army to paint. Did he buy them from there.? Anybody ask ? besides me.

The wonders of having a mini-FLGS (Minus store ) in your house.

We haven't visited a GW for ages!

 loki old fart wrote:
The OP stated that he had 4000 points of army to paint. Did he buy them from there.? Anybody ask ? besides me.

Pretty early on he said that he had recently bought all of those minis at the store in question and was miffed because he was being given grief about not buying something "today" to be able to play on the tables. That would annoy me as well.

Skriker

I remember when some 15 year old ish kid came in after school to look around, was asked to leave and tried to protest he was just looking at stuff, the staff guy just stared him down and told him to go home, he ended up walking out crying.

 Skriker wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
The OP stated that he had 4000 points of army to paint. Did he buy them from there.? Anybody ask ? besides me.

Pretty early on he said that he had recently bought all of those minis at the store in question and was miffed because he was being given grief about not buying something "today" to be able to play on the tables. That would annoy me as well.

Skriker

Did he? where? link it

Having free/open tables might also attract the.... let's call them the "less savory"... elements of the wargaming culture. You know the ones I mean. The ones who, after they've been in the store 10 minutes, have driven everyone else in a two-block radius away.

So I can understand having a table fee, if only to discourage these kinds of TFGs.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 phatonic wrote:
Wow wow wow... can they do that? i have never heard anything like this..then again our store aint that big... but we have gaming days but not open days we got clubs for that gotta hear with our manager about it. Where's this store you talking about?

Stores in australia can kick you out at a whim.

I'm pretty sure it's similar in UK. They can kick you out if you're not buying.

I usually try to buy something every time I go to GW. I don't know; I guess I just like the staffers. I try to keep it cheap, and make sure that it's something I or my friends can use, but usually I have a new or in the process army in the works, so there's always something for me to buy.

I think in most western countries the store staff is allowed to ask you to leave and if you don't they can call authorities to have you removed.

However, unless someone is being genuinely obnoxious, it's usually a bad business decision to start kicking people out. It's almost always better to encourage people to be in the store than not in the store. A potential customer is better than an empty store.

 Psienesis wrote:
Having free/open tables might also attract the.... let's call them the "less savory"... elements of the wargaming culture. You know the ones I mean. The ones who, after they've been in the store 10 minutes, have driven everyone else in a two-block radius away.

So I can understand having a table fee, if only to discourage these kinds of TFGs.

I'm curious as to what leads you to link not wanting to be in a store that charges for its tables with poor hygene...

The fact is, it is a huge honking nail in the store's coffin. one that cannot be removed without removing the policy/manager and even then, it could take years to repair the damage.
You would think GW would hire someone with at least a modicum of business sense. What am I saying? This IS GW we are talking about. Of COURSE they wouldn't.

I used to run a GW store. I never charged for table use, because that's a great way to alienate a large portion of your player base.

I solved the problem of people buying minis elsewhere and wanting to use my tables for free two ways.

1. Encourage a pay where you play mentality. I think most people, at their core, knew that it was a dick move to buy minis off eBayor wherever and then expect to use my tables for free. I wasn't above using a little bit of a guilt trip... "Oh, you got those off eBay? Please don't mention that to anyone while you're here. If everyone buys off eBay and expects to use my tables I won't be able to pay my rent or feed my wife."

2. I ran regular, free events and tournaments with prize support. Anyone who had purchased something in the store the previous week got some sort of advantage in the event... be it free rerolls or a roll on some sort of booster table.

Worked out pretty well. Charging for table use doesn't work in the long run, because your regular customers don't buy something every time they come in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To add... over the course of 6 months or so, the people who never bought from the store and only played in the events or used the tables quit coming. In a very real sense, those people aren't customers, they're just loitering.

While I don't buy my models from the local GW because of the ridiculous AU prices, I have spent plenty of money there on my codex, paints, brushes, glue, templates, psychic power cards, etc. So I don't feel guilty about hanging out in the store painting and playing some games on their tables. The manager knows I'm a paying customer and has never bothered me about showing up with models I've bought from the other game store nearby that sells them cheaper. This way I support both of my FLGSs while still getting models at a discount and I don't see anything wrong with that.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Do the charge the MTG players and so forth or is it only the wargamers? That would be something to find out.

Wizards, unlike GW, has sanctioned events though (FNM and such) with entry fees and such and tend to draw in plenty of players regardless with some prize support thrown in too (promo cards, free boosters, etc.) They probably make enough money from that.

Also, unlike Warhammer, MTG is a much more portable game that can be played almost anywhere. Playing in the store is just as viable as playing in the food court in the mall.

Does sound a bit fishy to me. As far as I'm aware my local GW store doesn't charge for table use but then again I've never actually needed to use them (I prefer to paint at home and not really into the actual gaming side as much). The manager there is a sound guy, recognises me even though I'm only in there once a couple of months or so, don't think he'd ever throw anyone out unless they were too roudy or causing disruption to other gamers. The store is always busy when I go in (even at opening times) and the rest of the staff are great too - always happy to chat.

I've seen this sort of behaviour with other companies though (mentioning no names but a well known computer games retailer that nearly went bust here in the UK) - moving away from customer service and been a place where people can talk about products with staff, and concentrating on making as much money as possible to satisfy greedy shareholders. Eventually people don't want to shop there and stop coming so the company goes bust, and that's not even the fact they can buy cheaper online (as with almost all products these days). To me if I want cheap products I'd shop online, but I go to the store to chat to other gamers, the staff, and look at some of the models close-up before purchase.

Anyway, back to OT - I'd email GW customer services and ask if the table charges are legit and the reasoning behind it.

 loki old fart wrote:

 Skriker wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
The OP stated that he had 4000 points of army to paint. Did he buy them from there.? Anybody ask ? besides me.

Pretty early on he said that he had recently bought all of those minis at the store in question and was miffed because he was being given grief about not buying something "today" to be able to play on the tables. That would annoy me as well.

Skriker

Did he? where? link it

I recalled reading it early on...sorry if you want to see the post, then feel free to go through all the thread and find it, as I don't have time to do it for you.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 Skriker wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
The OP stated that he had 4000 points of army to paint. Did he buy them from there.? Anybody ask ? besides me.

Pretty early on he said that he had recently bought all of those minis at the store in question and was miffed because he was being given grief about not buying something "today" to be able to play on the tables. That would annoy me as well.

Skriker

Did he? where? link it

I recalled reading it early on...sorry if you want to see the post, then feel free to go through all the thread and find it, as I don't have time to do it for you.

Skriker

I think that's because you can't. Because he never actually said where he bought them from.