Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Even I'm not that vindictive. I just want all the lists represented roughly equal in tourneys.

If I were running Eldar with no WS, there is no way I'd send guardians out for the reasons you describe. But marine firepower goes down significantly against aspect warriors.

I think this change puts savvy marine players back in business, but tac marine heavy lists still get rofl stomped by aspect warriors. Remember, the Wraithknight, war walker, wraithlord, and all jet bikers are still in play. And crimon hunter AA. Eldar would still have superior weapons platforms armed with superior weapons compared to marines. Marines having split priorities in their very nature just isn't meshing well in 6th at all. It's all about specialization now, and that's what Eldar units do.

 Jancoran wrote:


Stuff like that and also the SUPPOSED "death" of melee armies has caused the Blood Angel croud who routinely rolled everyone in 5E to be angry that they cant just roll people anymore. Melee had grown so oppressive in 5E and they fixed it. Made it a little more realistic. And people hate GW for that too.

See sig. Blood Angels weren't good in 5th because they were good at melee, they were good because fast, cheaper Razorbacks with double melta troops was amazing.

Martel732 wrote:
Even I'm not that vindictive. I just want all the lists represented roughly equal in tourneys.

If I were running Eldar with no WS, there is no way I'd send guardians out for the reasons you describe. But marine firepower goes down significantly against aspect warriors.

I think this change puts savvy marine players back in business, but tac marine heavy lists still get rofl stomped by aspect warriors. Remember, the Wraithknight, war walker, wraithlord, and all jet bikers are still in play. And crimon hunter AA. Eldar would still have superior weapons platforms armed with superior weapons compared to marines. Marines having split priorities in their very nature just isn't meshing well in 6th at all. It's all about specialization now, and that's what Eldar units do.

It would leave Tau alone at the top, nerf the big 2-3 Tau lists in the same update and boom, I think you'd have an even(-er) playing field. It would however show how vulnerable the Eldar are without their wheels (grav...drives?) Eldar long range firepower has always been sorta sketchy outside of the heavy selections and that's where the big problem has come in. The kneejerk Serpent buff suddenly meant instead of great long range from the heavy and short range from the rest every slot in the Eldar army suddenly comes with the potential for a high end long range MBT. The worst place to mess up the balance of a unit is in the DT slot because of how widely available it is, it shifts the entire army paradigm.

That's exactly the point I meant about Guardians though they really aren't that great without a Serpent I'm glad we can agree there. Avengers are better and slightly more durable but then they are paying almost marine costs and still giving up 2.2 kills to 10 marines with just boltguns from outside their own fire range, the marines are still in control of the engagement and the Eldar need that support fire or they are in trouble.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
See sig. Blood Angels weren't good in 5th because they were good at melee, they were good because fast, cheaper Razorbacks with double melta troops was amazing.

In fairness it's the same patchy memory that makes people forget this is the first edition in ever that most Eldar heavy weapons weren't BS3 and up to 50pts for a guardian weapon platform...
It's human memory, it remembers some stuff and lets the rest get filled in with fiction.

 Dunklezahn wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I would agree that that build is quite vulnerable against other Xeno lists, but I think it can actually compete against marines due to marines' lack of firepower. (Due to lower model count and crappy Imperial weapons) I'm assuming no list tailoring, because the heavy bolter is indeed bad news for footdar, but the heavy bolter is so terrible in a TAC list, the Eldar never need to factor it into their game plan.

The Serpent and Jetseers are the only thing propping that army up on it's pedestal, without them it's just another codex with some good, bad and meh units.

At this point I'd love to see both of them nerfed into the ground just to watch Eldar plummet out of competitive play.

I don't want anyone nerfed into the ground - just made fairer. There are various discussions about how to do this..............and it snt only Eldar units that are a problem

Avengers are paying for their efficacy against MCs and battle focus theoretically.

The whole package of Eldar would still be superior in my view, since they have true unit synergy coming from farseers and specialists. The Dire Avengers may have a slight disadvantage in a vacuum, but once if marines receive a volley from scatterwalkers before they engage, they are in deep crap. The Eldar, even without Jetseers and WS, can still bring the pain in ways the marines can only dream of. A lot of this goes back to tactical marines having a lot of their point cost tied up in defenses that don't help that much anymore and HTH stats which don't come into play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Dunklezahn wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I would agree that that build is quite vulnerable against other Xeno lists, but I think it can actually compete against marines due to marines' lack of firepower. (Due to lower model count and crappy Imperial weapons) I'm assuming no list tailoring, because the heavy bolter is indeed bad news for footdar, but the heavy bolter is so terrible in a TAC list, the Eldar never need to factor it into their game plan.

The Serpent and Jetseers are the only thing propping that army up on it's pedestal, without them it's just another codex with some good, bad and meh units.

At this point I'd love to see both of them nerfed into the ground just to watch Eldar plummet out of competitive play.

I don't want anyone nerfed into the ground - just made fairer. There are various discussions about how to do this..............and it snt only Eldar units that are a problem

Riptides actually kill my foot lists quicker and are harder to kill. But WS can be spammed harder than Riptides. 40 BA ASM with FNP and SoS can actually be a headache for Eldar, but I don't dare run that list in fear of running into Riptides. It's a conspiracy of lists that TAC marine lists can't handle.

x13rads wrote:
A little off topic, but I think the idea will apply...

If you game with a group of guys why not make a handicap chart? Make it specific to person and army, hang it up at he club(if owner agrees) on like a big white board. Every time Player A with Army X beats Player B with Army Y, Player B with Army Y gets a 5% points bonus the next time they play. Player B might get up to +30% before the games become challenging for both players.

It also takes into account that Player A might just be more of a veteran then Player B, but eventually the games should become more competitive. All I know is that my games are much more enjoyable when they come down to the wire, blow outs are boring.

You know, in golf, people develop a Handicap score. I wonder if a person who wins a lot (and I include myself in that boat) could maybe voluntarily have a handicap and the store could recognize players with those handicaps. Because if there was at least some RECOGNITION that could come with such scores, I think players like me could totally play at -100 points or something and opponents obviously would be appreciative of you acknowledging that "Hey, this game could be over and FAST if I don't cut this first year player some slack".

PLus then as a better player, you're challenging yourself to become even BETTER at normal tournies. So there is some value to playing at weaker points levels.

Lets say someone is a -100 Handicap and the opponent is -50. Split the diff and play at -50 for that game. Now it would be a point of pride that one can play with les points and win and people playing against certainly will not cry that you did so.

Maybe?

Nice idea - although from expereince some people still complain about handicap scores in the great game

but I do think its a really interesting idea -

Yup, started a new thread on it so if anyone has thoughts o nit, jump to the General Discussion and check it out.

From what I can tell it seems like I am actually having more fun playing my Eldar in 4th edition games with that codex. There seems to be a large part of the new codex that simply makes me shake my head at it.

Eldar have always been good. 3 shot Star Cannons. Remember those?

True, but that's why I really don't mind the last Codex, though in our friendly games I updated Nuadhu Fireheart from 3rd ed, because I think he is a really cool special character (Especially for a Saim-Hann themed army).

I'm not sure why they thought it was necessary to do to Wave Serpents what they did.

60" range was...unconscionable. Thats one thing I just will not ever understand. There HAD to be some discussion over that right? MAYBE an 18 inch weapon? Sure. I could see it gathering all its shield particles and projecting them in Awesomesauce fashion that way. but 60"? eh... eh...

So instead of bitching and complaining... Cause thats what everyone does... I am dedicating my time currently to developing anti-mechdar tactics and making Mechdar players miserable. Fun.

I've beaten 5 of the last six I played, using Night Lords, and two of those were tabled. Mechdar have given me the pefect honing stone against which to ply my nefarious talents.

Hah, like I said, I am far from being able to be a Mechdar player. I have "toyed" with the idea of getting a Fire Prism, which would push me to three grav-tanks, lol.

Sure and I dont care if you or anyone IS Mechdar. I just want to prove a point: your codex wont save you. The codex wont beat me.

If the Wave Serpent shield was removed or nerfed, Eldar players would go back to using Falcons.
Codex:Eldar has good FS choices, and heavy slots can easily go to the Falcons for transport. You'd see fewer Wraithknights as a result, making happier opponents.

I generally don't use WS much, apart from at a recent charity tournament. I also don't have, or want, any WKs.
So, nerf away, I wouldn't miss the shield much.

no one will switch to a falcon, its a heavy choice and is sub par to almost everything inside the heavy support slot section. If it was a dedicated transport (aspect only or something) or had a points decrease than maybe people would use it but right now, no.

As for the seers council, on foot they suck so hard no one plays them, the easy way to fix them is to dissalows allies(outside of eldar) to join the squad and boom no more 2+ re-rollable invulnerable save. Yes they can get 2+ re-rollable armour save but that requires alot of luck and ld 8 psykers casting powers, and since nids got released the council should be running for their lives.

Falcon scores in big guns, IS a transport and for those reasons might still see play. But I havent spotted a SINGLE falcon in 6E. Its amazing. Very few units go UTTERLY extinct from one edition to another but that is one of them.

If the Falcon was a dedicated transport for Fire Dragons or Striking Scorpions I might field one on occasions but I would NEVER trade a Falcon for a Fire Prism, Dark Reapers or a Wraithknight.

If they gave the Falcon an assault ramp then you might see some of them.

 Jancoran wrote:
Falcon scores in big guns, IS a transport and for those reasons might still see play. But I havent spotted a SINGLE falcon in 6E. Its amazing. Very few units go UTTERLY extinct from one edition to another but that is one of them.

It's just so heavily outgunned by the Wave Serpent, the Falcon still isn't bad it's just the only thing it can do better than a Wave Serpent is engaging heavier armour with a Pulse Laser/Lance but since you are spending a heavy slot and there are heavy weapons even better at engaging heavy armour it's just in that sort of limbo where if you are looking for effectiveness you simply aren't gonna go for the Falcon for anything.

If the Serpent didn't exist you might see a few but I don't think you'd have a wholesale switch.

I think that the Crimson Hunter also contributes to the obsolecense of the Falcon. The Crimason Hunter is Awesome and although a bit spendier, it has some real advantages. The Falcon is far tougher than the Crimson Hunter, but that accuracy on the Hunter is just silly awesome.

A Serpent with twin linked Lance is actually better against AV14 (do the math). Which is wrong.

The Falcon has weaker shooting than a straight-las Pred, while costing more. It doesn't synergise its long-range tank hunting duties with its transporting abilities, and it's not great as a gunboat. It is, however, very mobile. Which is nice. But I've found that it doesn't live long if it moves up field.

I've been enjoying Falcons lately. If the Serpent gets nerfed to where it should be, the falcon will be about right, but not competitive.

this definitely lifted my spirits a bit. I've been trying to get the hang of DE and failing at it. Eldar just made sense to me.

I don't think poorly of Eldar players at all. Not even those that bring a bunch of Wraithknights, Jetbikes or Wave Serpents. I see those lists as a challenge. As an opportunity to grow as a player and to learn new methods of war. No, I think poorly of those who apply peer pressure to those who bring cheese lists. Not just refusing games, no, but making them feel bad.

I still don't see what's so damn scary about a bunch of T3 models with 4+ saves.

only unlike guardsman they never stand on the ground . they are either with ++2 re-rollable inv or they are in skimer transports or they are in reservs.
They are +4 sv t3 models on last turn and by then am mostly dead and tar pited.

THe 2+ re-rollable invuln is mostly because of dark eldar, and the fact that they can't stand on the ground and still cost a bunch of points shows a problem with resiliance. The only ones that survive are the jetbikes if your lucky, and wraith units. (unless you hide inside of transports.)