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You could always go one step further and talk about how Codex > BRB, which would mean you use the codex definition of any rules present. The epub of the codex has it's own, and very clear definition of what Precision Shots does,

“PRECISION SHOTS
Wounds from Precision Shots are allocated against a model (or models) of your choice in the target unit, as long as it is in range and line of sight of the firing model, rather than following the normal rules for Wound allocation. This means that Precision Shots can be allocated against enemies with specialist weaponry, or even characters!

A character that has a Precision Shot Wound allocated to it can still make a Look Out, Sir roll.

Note that Snap Shots and shots from weapons that scatter, or do not roll To Hit, can never be Precision Shots.”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Codex - Astra Militarum.” iBooks.

 minionboy wrote:
You could always go one step further and talk about how Codex > BRB, which would mean you use the codex definition of any rules present. The epub of the codex has it's own, and very clear definition of what Precision Shots does,

“PRECISION SHOTS
Wounds from Precision Shots are allocated against a model (or models) of your choice in the target unit, as long as it is in range and line of sight of the firing model, rather than following the normal rules for Wound allocation. This means that Precision Shots can be allocated against enemies with specialist weaponry, or even characters!

A character that has a Precision Shot Wound allocated to it can still make a Look Out, Sir roll.

Note that Snap Shots and shots from weapons that scatter, or do not roll To Hit, can never be Precision Shots.”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Codex - Astra Militarum.” iBooks.

I don't have the Ipub, and that's not in the printed Codex.


But it does seem to seal the deal right down. Most recent published rules are always used in lieu of older ones. Guardsmen are, indeed, sniper kings now.

 Brachiaraidos wrote:

 minionboy wrote:
You could always go one step further and talk about how Codex > BRB, which would mean you use the codex definition of any rules present. The epub of the codex has it's own, and very clear definition of what Precision Shots does,

“PRECISION SHOTS
Wounds from Precision Shots are allocated against a model (or models) of your choice in the target unit, as long as it is in range and line of sight of the firing model, rather than following the normal rules for Wound allocation. This means that Precision Shots can be allocated against enemies with specialist weaponry, or even characters!

A character that has a Precision Shot Wound allocated to it can still make a Look Out, Sir roll.

Note that Snap Shots and shots from weapons that scatter, or do not roll To Hit, can never be Precision Shots.”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Codex - Astra Militarum.” iBooks.

I don't have the Ipub, and that's not in the printed Codex.


But it does seem to seal the deal right down. Most recent published rules are always used in lieu of older ones. Guardsmen are, indeed, sniper kings now.

Sadly not because if you see earlier in the thread the definition of the precision shot rule in the ebook and the iBook differ. One says you need to rolla six and the other says you don't. We actually have two GW publications of the same book in different formats that contradict each other.

Rob451 wrote:
[Sadly not because if you see earlier in the thread the definition of the precision shot rule in the ebook and the iBook differ. One says you need to rolla six and the other says you don't. We actually have two GW publications of the same book in different formats that contradict each other.

Well, no. The Epub copy-pasted the entry for characters. The special rule in the ebook actually only details what happens for characters making precision shots- it dosen't mean anything for normal units. The Ibook details how it works outside of that codex; no overlap.

 Brachiaraidos wrote:

Rob451 wrote:
[Sadly not because if you see earlier in the thread the definition of the precision shot rule in the ebook and the iBook differ. One says you need to rolla six and the other says you don't. We actually have two GW publications of the same book in different formats that contradict each other.

Well, no. The Epub copy-pasted the entry for characters. The special rule in the ebook actually only details what happens for characters making precision shots- it dosen't mean anything for normal units. The Ibook details how it works outside of that codex; no overlap.

Well the rule you get when you click on Take Aim with the iBook says you need to roll a 6 to get a precision shot so that's how I'm playing it.

Rob451 wrote:

 Brachiaraidos wrote:

Rob451 wrote:
[Sadly not because if you see earlier in the thread the definition of the precision shot rule in the ebook and the iBook differ. One says you need to rolla six and the other says you don't. We actually have two GW publications of the same book in different formats that contradict each other.

Well, no. The Epub copy-pasted the entry for characters. The special rule in the ebook actually only details what happens for characters making precision shots- it dosen't mean anything for normal units. The Ibook details how it works outside of that codex; no overlap.

Well the rule you get when you click on Take Aim with the iBook says you need to roll a 6 to get a precision shot so that's how I'm playing it.

No it doesn't, it says characters need to roll a 6 to get a precision shot. Guardsmen are not characters. See the image at the top of this page for a description of precision shot not tied to characters.

My point all along is that rules as written in my copy of the codex means this order does nothing at all because it quotes a rule which only works on characters when you click on the order.

It's not saying they fire precision shots it says they get the precision shots rule which it then quotes in its entirety from the rule book. It right now does nothing according to my copy of the codex and whatever you say in this thread will not change the literal reading of that rule in the iBook version if the codex.

The mistake being made here is that the first sentence under Precision Shots in the BRB begins by defining how characters gain the Precision Shot rule. No characters, generally, have the precision shot rule. When they roll a 6 they gain the precision shot rule which allows them to allocate wounds. There are other sources as well that can grant the Precision shot rule. Rolling a 6 is not a requirement for precision shots, it is simply a mechanic by which all characters can temporally gain the precision shot rule. The rule doesn't limit it to characters or limit it only to rolling a 6. It provides the most common scenario and a universal rule for characters. Other rules can, and do, exist in codexes and on weapons that grant Precision Shots beyond the example listed under the Precision Shots rule in the BRB.

The logic works as follows:
Character rolls 6.
Character gains Precision Shots rule for that attack.

Squad receives the Take Aim order.
Squad gains the Precision Shots rule for their attacks.

In either case the BRB defines Precision Shots as allowing you to allocate wounds. It does not require rolling a 6. A character rolling a 6 is merely the most common mechanic for a precision shot to come up in the game because that situation specifically grants a Character the Precision Shots rule for that attack.

Edit: Clarified a bit.

I think the Eldar Sharpshot special rule makes it pretty clear. Shots fired are always precision shots so that wouldn't mean you have to roll a 6 to get the rule.

As has been said rolling a 6 isn't a prerequisite for a precision shot, it's just a way that some models can get precision shot, characters and sniper weapons by the rule book.

Other ways are wargear (the bolt pistol), Eldar Sharpshot special rule and the Take Aim Order.

There seems to be a confusion between "Special Rules" and "Universal Special Rules"

The *written definition* of Special Rule is: pg 32. Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule.

By that simple defintion, the Precision Shot rules are clearly a Special Rule.

There is a collection of Special rules called Universal Special Rules.... but that is not exhaustive.

The Precision Shot Special Rule states a To HIt roll of 6 makes the shot a Precision Shot.

If it WERE a special rule, many things for a different. For a start, it would be in the special rule list.

There is nothing in the rules stating that *all* special rules are in that list. It is pretty evident that many many special rules are not in that list.

They're unique, they're rules, but they're not Special Rules. There's an important distinction in terminology.

That is a distinction that *you* have made, not one supported by the rules. *Any* rule that allows a creature or weapon to break the basic rules is, by definition, a Special Rule.

There's a special rule heading in unit entries for a reason. Every special rule a unit has, is listed in there.

Can you please point to the rule that supports your claim, your claim that *every* special rule is listed there?

When they roll a 6 they gain the precision shot rule which allows them to allocate wounds.

When in a rules discussion, please refrain from fabricating rules... please stick to what the rules actually say. The rule does *not* say that a roll of 6 gains the precision shot rule...
It says a roll of 6 causes the shot to become a precision shot. In order for this to trigger, the model (character) must already have the Precision shot rule. It is the rule that lets regular shots become precision shots.



This dovetails into a broader point. If you ignore the 'roll a 6' sentence... there is *no way* for any of the shots to actually *become* a precision shot.
Please note, the AM rule does *NOT* say that all of their shots become a precision shot.
The Precision shot rule in the epub does *NOT* say that their shots are precision shots.

If you ignore that sentence..... then all you are left with is a rule for dealing with any precision shots... but nothing saying what shots *are* precision shots.
Please provide an actual passage that states what shots are precision shots.

The glossary in the AM Codex does not require the precision shot to be "activated" by rolling a 6, how can you conclude anything other than all of the shots being precision shots ?

Where does rolling a 6 come from ? That only applies to Characters and Snipers because that's what it says in their rules.

The Eldar Sharpshot simply says all of their shots are precision shots so obviously it too doesn't have the requirement to roll a 6.

Because if you ignore the sentence in the BRB, and if you ignore the entry in the iBook version... you are left with a non-working rule.

A rule needs to say *when* it happens, and then say *what* happens.

Rending:
When: When a To wound roll is 6,
What: target automaticaly wounded...

Poison:
When: It always...
What: Wounds on a fixed number...

Melta:
WHen: If the model is less than half its maximum range...
What: It rolls 2 dice for A Pen

JInk:
When: A model has moved in the movement phase
What: It gains a 5+ cover save.

Now lets look at the rule if you ignore the first sentence in the BRB and the entry in the iBook.

Precision Shots:
When: ....????......
What: Can allocate wounds to any model...

The Precision Shot rule you guys are pushing does *not* provide this information. It does *not* say that all shots are precision shots, it does not say that every shot becomes a precision shot. The *only* way the rule actually works is to follow all of the rules given in the BRB, which includes needing a 6 on the To Hit.

The Eldar Sharpshot simply says all of their shots are precision shots so obviously it too doesn't have the requirement to roll a 6.

Yes, and this helps prove my point. The wording on this rule is *very* different.
The Sharpshot rule says that all shots become precision shots
The Take Aim order does *NOT SAY* that all shots become precision shots; it says the unit gets the Precision Shot special rule. The precision shot special rule in the BRB and the iBook states which shots become precision shots.
If you ignore those.... then there is no rule saying which shots become precision shots.

To follow the above format
Sharpshot:
When: All shots
What: become precision Shots.

It's obviously all shots taken when the order is given, that's why it isn't a carte blanch "all" like the Eldar guy.

The Precision Shot special rule allows you to nominate to whom the wounds are allocated and it applies to shots made under the influence of the order.

The rule is written plain as day mate, they don't come any clearer.

coredump wrote:

Now lets look at the rule if you ignore the first sentence in the BRB and the entry in the iBook.

Precision Shots:
When: ....????......
What: Can allocate wounds to any model...

You're misreading the rule book.

Let me reproduce the Precision Shots rule here with the emphasis from the BRB

Precision Shots
If any of your character's shots roll 6 To Hit, these are Precision Shots. Wounds from Precision Shots are allocated against a model (or models) of your choice in the target unit, as long as it is in range, rather than following the normal rules for wound allocation.

The AM ebook reproduces the rule exactly as above under the hyperlink for Take Aim. The emphasis in the original text, and indeed the wording itself, indicates that a character rolling a 6 is one method in which precision shots are gained. There are also other methods in which precision shots are gained. Regardless the bolded section indicates what a precision shot does, which is allocating wounds against models of your choice. To use your example:

Precision Shots:
When: When granted by a rule. (i.e. A character rolling a 6 per BRB, an eldar sharpshooter, the take aim order, etc.)
What: Can allocate wounds to any model.

You are reading the "If any of your character's shots roll 6 to hit" as an absolute requirement for precision shots which obviously isn't the case because there are rules for non-character models to cause precision shots scattered around the books. As I said earlier, it's simply mentioned under the Characters section of the BRB and includes, for reference, the most common situation for which a precision shot occurs.

Edit: Typo

The order does not make your fire precision shots though. It gives the model the special rule.

farrenj wrote:

coredump wrote:

Now lets look at the rule if you ignore the first sentence in the BRB and the entry in the iBook.

Precision Shots:
When: ....????......
What: Can allocate wounds to any model...

You're misreading the rule book.

Let me reproduce the Precision Shots rule here with the emphasis from the BRB

Precision Shots
If any of your character's shots roll 6 To Hit, these are Precision Shots. Wounds from Precision Shots are allocated against a model (or models) of your choice in the target unit, as long as it is in range, rather than following the normal rules for wound allocation.

The AM ebook reproduces the rule exactly as above under the hyperlink for Take Aim. The emphasis in the original text, and indeed the wording itself, indicates that a character rolling a 6 is one method in which precision shots are gained. There are also other methods in which precision shots are gained. Regardless the bolded section indicates what a precision shot does, which is allocating wounds against models of your choice. To use your example:

Precision Shots:
When: When granted by a rule. (i.e. A character rolling a 6 per BRB, an eldar sharpshooter, the take aim order, etc.)
What: Can allocate wounds to any model.

You are reading the "If any of your character's shots roll 6 to hit" as an absolute requirement for precision shots which obviously isn't the case because there are rules for non-character models to cause precision shots scattered around the books. As I said earlier, it's simply mentioned under the Characters section of the BRB and includes, for reference, the most common situation for which a precision shot occurs.

Edit: Typo

You are harping on the word "character" like it is an absolute. Of course that section will reference Characters, it is after all, the Character section. And Characters are typically the only ones who can do precision shots. In this case that ability is given to another unit, therefore you would replace Character with X unit. They now need 6's to be precision shots.

You continue to conflate a Precision Shot and the Precision Shot Special Rule.

The Precision Shot Special Rule provides information about *when* regular shots become a Precision Shot, and information about how to handle Precision Shots.


Uptop: I like how when the rule doesn't actually say what you want it to say... you claim it is 'obvious' that they really meant it to be the way you want it to be...

Exactly how is it not obvious to you that there is no requirement to roll a 6 ?

For me it's the lack of "for every 6" or " when a 6 to hit is rolled"

Do tell me where the need for a 6 to be rolled is mentioned for a model that isn't a character or a Sniper?

coredump wrote:
You continue to conflate a Precision Shot and the Precision Shot Special Rule.

The Precision Shot Special Rule provides information about *when* regular shots become a Precision Shot, and information about how to handle Precision Shots.


Uptop: I like how when the rule doesn't actually say what you want it to say... you claim it is 'obvious' that they really meant it to be the way you want it to be...

Emperor's Benediction has the Precision Shot special rule. The EB is a Relic that can only be taken by a character. By your argument, GW gave the pistol a special rule that does nothing.

That would be like making a Template weapon with a special rule to re-roll To Hit rolls.

 Happyjew wrote:
Emperor's Benediction has the Precision Shot special rule. The EB is a Relic that can only be taken by a character. By your argument, GW gave the pistol a special rule that does nothing.

That would be like making a Template weapon with a special rule to re-roll To Hit rolls.

Pretty much 100% of the reason that the current 'Precision Shot' special rule only makes any sense to be placing every shot. If we have to decide what the Precision Shot special rule is, it applies to both cases, because they have the exact same wording.

It only does something both times if it's manually allocating every shot.

Forgive me if I think it's silly for someone to try convince me that I have a special rule that GW intended to do absolutely nothing in 50% of the cases it exists in.

 Brachiaraidos wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Emperor's Benediction has the Precision Shot special rule. The EB is a Relic that can only be taken by a character. By your argument, GW gave the pistol a special rule that does nothing.

That would be like making a Template weapon with a special rule to re-roll To Hit rolls.

Pretty much 100% of the reason that the current 'Precision Shot' special rule only makes any sense to be placing every shot. If we have to decide what the Precision Shot special rule is, it applies to both cases, because they have the exact same wording.

It only does something both times if it's manually allocating every shot.

Forgive me if I think it's silly for someone to try convince me that I have a special rule that GW intended to do absolutely nothing in 50% of the cases it exists in.

The rule does not do nothing 50% of the time. (although it would not be the first rules that did). The rule works 100% fine with 6's as allocated wounds.

Fragile wrote:

 Brachiaraidos wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Emperor's Benediction has the Precision Shot special rule. The EB is a Relic that can only be taken by a character. By your argument, GW gave the pistol a special rule that does nothing.

That would be like making a Template weapon with a special rule to re-roll To Hit rolls.

Pretty much 100% of the reason that the current 'Precision Shot' special rule only makes any sense to be placing every shot. If we have to decide what the Precision Shot special rule is, it applies to both cases, because they have the exact same wording.

It only does something both times if it's manually allocating every shot.

Forgive me if I think it's silly for someone to try convince me that I have a special rule that GW intended to do absolutely nothing in 50% of the cases it exists in.

The rule does not do nothing 50% of the time. (although it would not be the first rules that did). The rule works 100% fine with 6's as allocated wounds.

If the Precision Shot special rule is "To Hit rolls of 6 are Precision Shots", then the Emperors's Benediction, which can only be taken by characters, who already have that ability, has a special rule that does in fact do nothing.

 Happyjew wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Brachiaraidos wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Emperor's Benediction has the Precision Shot special rule. The EB is a Relic that can only be taken by a character. By your argument, GW gave the pistol a special rule that does nothing.

That would be like making a Template weapon with a special rule to re-roll To Hit rolls.

Pretty much 100% of the reason that the current 'Precision Shot' special rule only makes any sense to be placing every shot. If we have to decide what the Precision Shot special rule is, it applies to both cases, because they have the exact same wording.

It only does something both times if it's manually allocating every shot.

Forgive me if I think it's silly for someone to try convince me that I have a special rule that GW intended to do absolutely nothing in 50% of the cases it exists in.

The rule does not do nothing 50% of the time. (although it would not be the first rules that did). The rule works 100% fine with 6's as allocated wounds.

If the Precision Shot special rule is "To Hit rolls of 6 are Precision Shots", then the Emperors's Benediction, which can only be taken by characters, who already have that ability, has a special rule that does in fact do nothing.

And that surprises you? So because 1 weapon has a useless effect, you now have to change how the rule works to justify the weapon? Its not the first time GW printed something completely useless.

Let me ask you, RAW, what does Sharpshot rule on Illic do ?

IIRC it makes all shots fired by him Precision Shots.

Not really sure, I never use him.

Fragile wrote:
And that surprises you? So because 1 weapon has a useless effect, you now have to change how the rule works to justify the weapon? Its not the first time GW printed something completely useless.

Let me ask you, RAW, what does Sharpshot rule on Illic do ?

A) You're pretty much the only person I know who honestly keeps trying to defend precision shots as only happening on 6's.
B) If you're going to try bring consensus to a contested rule, doing it in such a way to bring additional redundancy to a codex is not a great way to do it, was rather the point.


Seriously, I don't know how many more ways we can illustrate it. We have context for the RAI, the RAW don't support anything you say. As before, the character precision shots innate trait is listed as a subheading in characters because characters get them on 6's. Snipers get precision shots on 6's, and it states as much. On a 6, precision shot happens.

The precision shot is the allocated hit.

Rolling a 6 is how characters and snipers get it.

Alternative ways of getting it now include the relic bolt pistol and 'Take Aim!'.

If Precision shot the rule was roll a 6 to get a precision shot, the character entry would simply say 'characters get precision shot'. The sniper entry would list the additional special rules as 'pinning, rending and precision shot.' Neither of these things are true.

There is zero support for precision shot only happening on 6's. The only way the 'Take Aim!' order would give Precision Shots on 6's is if they FAQ the wording of it, not with RAW.

But, if you need it again:

“PRECISION SHOTS
Wounds from Precision Shots are allocated against a model (or models) of your choice in the target unit, as long as it is in range and line of sight of the firing model, rather than following the normal rules for Wound allocation. This means that Precision Shots can be allocated against enemies with specialist weaponry, or even characters!

A character that has a Precision Shot Wound allocated to it can still make a Look Out, Sir roll.

Note that Snap Shots and shots from weapons that scatter, or do not roll To Hit, can never be Precision Shots.”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Codex - Astra Militarum.” iBooks.

Edit: Oh, and before you start saying 'Oh they contradict each other', no they do not. One states that characters make precision shots on a roll of a 6. One states that a precision shot is allocated as you please. They overlap, and contradict each other in no way at all. If you want that quote, too.

If any of your character's shots roll a 6 to hit, these are precision shots. Wounds from Precision Shots are allocated against a model (or models) of your choice in the target unit..." BRB, Page 63.
Characters rolling 6's to hit get precision shots. See that word characters? Rolling to hit? In one tidy snippet? That in no way says that characters have the precision shot special rule? That in no way says that it's a rule which lets you allocate the hit if you roll a 6, unless you're a character getting the precision shot rule because you rolled said six?

 Brachiaraidos wrote:
A) You're pretty much the only person I know who honestly keeps trying to defend precision shots as only happening on 6's.

I have observed the opposite when discussing this order, there seems to be a general consensus forming that you need 6s to get precision shots from Take Aim. Maybe not from a strict RAW point of view, that is endlessly debatable I think, but definitely from a HYWPI standpoint.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Brachiaraidos wrote:
A) You're pretty much the only person I know who honestly keeps trying to defend precision shots as only happening on 6's.

I have observed the opposite when discussing this order, there seems to be a general consensus forming that you need 6s to get precision shots from Take Aim. Maybe not from a strict RAW point of view, that is endlessly debatable I think, but definitely from a HYWPI standpoint.

How you want to play it is fair enough- a lot of people seem to believe that it's more fair if the roll to hit is a part of the precision shot. But what GW wrote and printed doesn't support that, and for the most part discussions I see are coming to conclude that. RAW may not be to your liking, but it's that ever shot is placed.

New BRB solves this issue. There's a Precision Shots special rule that specifies that any model with this rule that roles a 6 to hit results in a precision shot. Conflict pretty well settled. Reinforces in my mind that the AM codex was written with 7th edition in mind. Also, since characters don't have precision shot by default anymore suddenly the Emperor's Benediction has a use.