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Why do people argue so strongly about this?

It's not particularly game-breaking, just really silly to imagine narratively.

 Sigvatr wrote:
A) and B) apply because of Scarabs having the special rule and the special rule is not explicitely restricted to ranged attacks. Therefore, anything they do attack-wise has Entropic Strikes.

Ok now argue the point that I made about restricting your use of a Quad Gun to replacing a weapon being fired in the shooting phase with the Gun Emplacement

Try that one on for size then come back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nobody? Lol

First: manners. Your tone is more than inappopriate.

Secondly: it's a forum, not a chat. Sometimes, you gotta wait for answers.

Thirdly: the term "instead" is not used to limit using the gun emplacement, but to disallow the model from shooting its own weapon too. Scarabs have a BS and therefore may shoot.

 Sigvatr wrote:
First: manners. Your tone is more than inappopriate.

Secondly: it's a forum, not a chat. Sometimes, you gotta wait for answers.

Thirdly: the term "instead" is not used to limit using the gun emplacement, but to disallow the model from shooting its own weapon too. Scarabs have a BS and therefore may shoot.

You just countered your own argument saying that because the Scarabs have a BS they can effectively ignore that they first need a weapon to substitute firing. That "Instead" is indeed restrictive. If you cannot substitute a shooting attack in the shooting phase to operate a Gun Emplacement, you simply cannot do so.

GoliothOnline wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
First: manners. Your tone is more than inappopriate.

Secondly: it's a forum, not a chat. Sometimes, you gotta wait for answers.

Thirdly: the term "instead" is not used to limit using the gun emplacement, but to disallow the model from shooting its own weapon too. Scarabs have a BS and therefore may shoot.

You just countered your own argument saying that because the Scarabs have a BS they can effectively ignore that they first need a weapon to substitute firing. That "Instead" is indeed restrictive. If you cannot substitute a shooting attack in the shooting phase to operate a Gun Emplacement, you simply cannot do so.

There are a lot of people using models without a ranged weapon to fire Gun Emplacements, such as the Bloodthirster who's great BS would entirely go to waste then.

The other thing I was looking at is that it says instead of their weapon instead of ranged weapon. Someone could argue that they could replace their melee weapon to fire the gun. Though these arguments need to be taken to the YMDK thread here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/591674.page

On one hand, I believe it's an oversight, and would probably not actually try this in a game...

On the other hand though, it's bloody hilarious to imagine an autocannon loaded with scarabs instead of shells

 Nilok wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
First: manners. Your tone is more than inappopriate.

Secondly: it's a forum, not a chat. Sometimes, you gotta wait for answers.

Thirdly: the term "instead" is not used to limit using the gun emplacement, but to disallow the model from shooting its own weapon too. Scarabs have a BS and therefore may shoot.

You just countered your own argument saying that because the Scarabs have a BS they can effectively ignore that they first need a weapon to substitute firing. That "Instead" is indeed restrictive. If you cannot substitute a shooting attack in the shooting phase to operate a Gun Emplacement, you simply cannot do so.

There are a lot of people using models without a ranged weapon to fire Gun Emplacements, such as the Bloodthirster who's great BS would entirely go to waste then.

The other thing I was looking at is that it says instead of their weapon instead of ranged weapon. Someone could argue that they could replace their melee weapon to fire the gun. Though these arguments need to be taken to the YMDK thread here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/591674.page

Just as a heads up the Bloodthirster has a ranged weapon though

Lash of Khorne

Where in the necron book on page 29 does it say anything about a quad gun fired by a scarab.

So far i see:

RAW - entrophic strike can be given to a quad-gun cause the rules say "model" but scarabs can't shoot the quad-gun cause they have no ranged weapons cause the rules say "instead"
RAI - entrophic strike can't be given to a quad-gun cause it's stupid but scarabs can shoot a quad-gun cause why not

So to use the combo you got to take the first part of RAW and combine it to the second part of RAI.

Complain all you want, guys, it's not going to change the way it is currently being played.
RAW dictates a Quad Gun fired by Scarabs will benefit from Entropic Strike.
Numerous YMDC threads have already been dedicated to this topic, and they've all come out the same way.

If you don't like it, direct you complaints/questions here-

Gamefaqs@gwplc.com

(maybe if enough people email them about it, they'll update the FAQ. God knows it needs it...)

Yet not a single person can justify the entire rule taken from the BRB about having to substitute a weapon during the shooting phase to use a gun emplacement....

Sometimes I wonder...

It never says that you have to have a ranged weapon. It asks you to use either the one you have or the gun emplacement.

According to your logic, would Scarabs be able to run in the Shooting Phase?

Why is this something that must be argued over so strongly?

One quad-gun scarcely has the dakka when fired at BS2 for this to be anything more than a tad goofy and silly.

You'd need an Imperial Strongpoint to have sufficient quad-guns to really get much out of this.

Because Wargamers are like the Government, they find simple things, then make them complicated.

@Sigvatr

Page 105 BRB states.

"One model in base contact with the gun emplacement can
fire it instead of his own weapon, following the normal rules
for shooting."

Implying you must have a ranged weapon.

SO... To Encyclopedia Brown this argument.

The shooting phase begins
Choose a weapon you would like to shoot.
Do you wish to substitute that weapon with a Gun Emplacements weapon? (Restriction - Needs a ranged weapon in order to substitute for Gun Emplacement)

Can you meet those requirements? if Yes, you may fire the Gun Emplacement. If no, you cannot fire the Gun Emplacement.

They refer to normal rules of shooting implying in order to shoot, you first need a ranged weapon.

Page 12 "Nominate Unit to Shoot" states

"During the Shooting phase, a unit consisting of models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make a shooting attack."

As Scarabs, you can't even fulfill the basic requirements to make a shooting attack due to the fact you lack ranged weapons all together.

I would suggest you also add Run to that list then as page.14 says "...units may choose to Run instead of firing."

Your argument would also cause any unit that doesn't have a ranged weapon, to be unable to run.

How do you figure?

Running is something you MAY do, if the choice of firing your weapons doesn't occur during a shooting phase you CAN elect to Run. The choice being that you can CHOOSE not to fire a weapon (If you have one) and still be able to run, just the same as you might not have a weapon but can still Run in the shooting phase.

Models don't ignore the Phases of the game just because they don't have rules and Wargear that cannot be used during those said phases. (IE Ranged Weapons / Abilities)

To fire a gun emplacement, you CAN use it instead of your own weapon.

The distinction between can and may is tiny at best and should not have an argument built around it. You also added the part about having or not having a weapon, it never says that they can run if they can't fire, only instead of firing.

I don't understand your last statement. Can you fire in the shooting phase without a ranged weapon? Models are not ignoring a Phase, you simply don't have permission to do that action.

Regardless, if you want to continue this discussion, please take this to the YMDC thread on this subject. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/591674.page

Oh god, yet ANOTHER YMDC thread on this topic.
Haven't the previous however many been enough?!

Guys this isn't YMDC please take the argument if it works or not over there please. This is talking about the tactic of the scarabs and the quad gun not the rules about it.

There are two people that I agree with in this post:

@ductvader, As you mentioned, but people seemed to overlook, the Scarabs need to have LOS to shoot their target. With that wall being at least 3/4" on the short part of the wall, I'd argue they wouldn't be able to see anything.

@Kain, I agree. Who cares about how many special rules they can throw into 4 shots at S7. If that's why you're losing, then you might want to pick another game to play. I don't care if those 4 shots autohit, autowound, and remove cover saves, you're not going to lose the game over it. And if they want to keep scarabs and all those independents in their deployment zone, have at it. The more models you put on that Quad Gun, the less likely you're not going to kill the points to make up for it.

Saythings wrote:
There are two people that I agree with in this post:

@ductvader, As you mentioned, but people seemed to overlook, the Scarabs need to have LOS to shoot their target. With that wall being at least 3/4" on the short part of the wall, I'd argue they wouldn't be able to see anything.

@Kain, I agree. Who cares about how many special rules they can throw into 4 shots at S7. If that's why you're losing, then you might want to pick another game to play. I don't care if those 4 shots autohit, autowound, and remove cover saves, you're not going to lose the game over it. And if they want to keep scarabs and all those independents in their deployment zone, have at it. The more models you put on that Quad Gun, the less likely you're not going to kill the points to make up for it.

And if someone does show up with enough quadguns from an imperial strongpoint to get much use out of this, they've probably sacrificed a good portion of their list points and slotwise for what amounts to a goofy gimmick.

 Kain wrote:

Saythings wrote:
There are two people that I agree with in this post:

@ductvader, As you mentioned, but people seemed to overlook, the Scarabs need to have LOS to shoot their target. With that wall being at least 3/4" on the short part of the wall, I'd argue they wouldn't be able to see anything.

@Kain, I agree. Who cares about how many special rules they can throw into 4 shots at S7. If that's why you're losing, then you might want to pick another game to play. I don't care if those 4 shots autohit, autowound, and remove cover saves, you're not going to lose the game over it. And if they want to keep scarabs and all those independents in their deployment zone, have at it. The more models you put on that Quad Gun, the less likely you're not going to kill the points to make up for it.

And if someone does show up with enough quadguns from an imperial strongpoint to get much use out of this, they've probably sacrificed a good portion of their list points and slotwise for what amounts to a goofy gimmick.

And as a Salamanders player, I know where I'm aiming my Meltas. At least the first couple. Haha. That being said, I'll make sure my Red Shirts (naked Marines in Pods) take the BS2, TL, blah blah, from the interceptor. xD

for a real game just the scarabs on the quad gun would be enough without taxing the rest of the list and if your warlord is zhandrek you don't have to have him with the scarabs to gain tank hunter, you could give them stealth instead for a better cover save. its a neat trick that i want to give a shot in some real games.