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 Klerych wrote:
It's funny when people tell me stuff like "40k community is actually made of many people with different opinions". Of course I know that, but if there's equal amount of hate and naysaying when GW does something as there is for it not doing that thing, why would they even pay attention to those people?

I know that listening to your community is a big thing, but sometimes when I look at Dakka or any other forum with 40k community on it, I see a bunch of cats, each displeased, each walking in a different direction and all of them meowing out their lack of satisfaction.

Why even bother reading all that crap? No matter what GW does, people will hate it equally anyway. People having different opinions are okay, but when vocal minority pretending to be the majority acts like a bunch of rabid dogs, do they really expect anyone to treat them seriously? Or is it just a case of a circlejerk for those that want others to stand up and shout with them, so they feel stronger and cooler?

I think that such behaviour is much more toxic to the community than any Allies Chart abuse allowed by unbalanced rules.

I disagree on the levels of toxicness, allies are more problematic for 40k. The rest makes sense though.

 Klerych wrote:


No matter what GW does, people will hate it equally anyway.

Your hyperbole aside, this is wrong. There's plenty GW could do that would make a significant majority of the players happy.

Off the top of my head;

-FAQs/Erratas that clear up issues that should be addressed, and in a timely manner
-Cheaper prices/better value for a dollar spent on minis/rulebooks
-Tighter rules that feel like they've at least been properly play tested
-Give the player base real news and teasers prior to a release with genuine information to generate excitement

I'm sure there's more, but either way, your point about listening to the community is incorrect. Its always a good move to try and interact with the community, and while there will always be the emotionally charged, not overly bright gamer, there will always be level-headed people with researched and well developed points on how to improve various aspects of the game,

It takes effort, but you can sift through the nonsensical to find the valuable. If you only assume the worst from the community, that's all you'll ever find. If you look past the idiocy and read the thoughts that have been well written and backed up by some sort of logic or facts, you'll find the community is much better than you're giving it credit.

Just take a look at your post. Is it making anything better? Have you contributed in any meaningful manner? Because all I see is more negativity in that post, bemoaning the amount of negativity. Be the change you want to see.

 Blacksails wrote:
[...]
Just take a look at your post. Is it making anything better? Have you contributed in any meaningful manner? Because all I see is more negativity in that post, bemoaning the amount of negativity. Be the change you want to see.

Unless he can be the entire fanbase, that's going to be a tough one.

 Selym wrote:


Unless he can be the entire fanbase, that's going to be a tough one.

You're missing the point.

If you complain about the toxicity of the community, then it should follow that you set an example and only post things you would want to read in return.

Of course people will still be people, but the only way to make anything better is to start yourself.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Selym wrote:


Unless he can be the entire fanbase, that's going to be a tough one.

You're missing the point.

If you complain about the toxicity of the community, then it should follow that you set an example and only post things you would want to read in return.

Of course people will still be people, but the only way to make anything better is to start yourself.

I shall try to show some positivity then, and maybe give us an example of how we're meant to react to GW:

*ahem*

Oh, WONDEROUS JOY, look at the price rises! Everything has increased by 30% for the n^th time!
And the Ruleset is just utterly FABULOUS, with all the imbalance, I can just feel the narratives in my face!

...

...

That came out more sarcastic than I expected.

... Srsly, I *did* try to show positivity, but it turns out that I actually am incapable of it. :-/

You're still missing the point, though the humour is nice a touch.

It doesn't have to positive, it just has to have substance.

 Blacksails wrote:
You're still missing the point, though the humour is nice a touch.

It doesn't have to positive, it just has to have substance.

I do tend to miss the point a lot

But I'm not sure how we'd convey anything other than what we already do about GW etc...

I think I get it: you have whining, then the whining about the whining, then the whining about the whining about the whining, and finally the whining about the whining about the whining about the whining about the whining. No wait, the last one is wrong. It is not the whining about the whining about the whining about the whining about the whining, it is just the whining about the whining about the whining about the whining. Level four whinings. Blacksails, I do not like it that you didn´t like Klerych´s negative reaction to what Selym wrote about GW. Ha! I hope nobody dislikes that.

Reminds me of an old Monty Python line:

"I think all right thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that ordinary decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I'm certainly not, and I'm sick and tired of being told that I am."

@Klerych: there will always be people complaining about something. That´s the human nature. If the fan-base is big enough, there will always be someone displeased. I think you are mostly focusing on negative responses. That´s the reason people tells you it was different people all the time. I sort of welcome this new edition (not 100% sold on it still), I got really bored with the slow-mode of late-5th.

Also, I don´t think criticism is toxic to the community. Quite the contrary.

@Selym: try to find people who think like you. The game is really fun if the players want the same. To begin with, not everyone will run to buy the new book. I am still using 5th nids and 4th csm, and still playing some 5th edition with an old friend. There are also people playing 2nd, or house ruled variants. It is complicated, but not impossible.

If the game really feels so negative, I have found having a little break helps. A lot of people in this forum has stopped playing (temporarily or not) and are here for the background and the modelling (and the people, of course)

 da001 wrote:

@Selym: try to find people who think like you. The game is really fun if the players want the same. To begin with, not everyone will run to buy the new book. I am still using 5th nids and 4th csm, and still playing some 5th edition with an old friend. There are also people playing 2nd, or house ruled variants. It is complicated, but not impossible.

If the game really feels so negative, I have found having a little break helps. A lot of people in this forum has stopped playing (temporarily or not) and are here for the background and the modelling (and the people, of course)

I end up having 3-6 month breaks between games because I have never seen a game over 500 points take less than 5 hours with anyone I can currently play. Which is really sad, as the times I've had games with my best friend (bro 4 lyfe), who has since moved away, were some of the most hilarious things I've ever done, and were usually done in under 3 hours, even though we have never played with turn limits between the two of us. And once respawned an entire 1500 point IG army, because I was totally owning him that day.

Really my problem boils down to the fact that:
-My playerbase is currently limited to about three people (excluding me), one of whom is a GW-loving rules-lawyering d-bag, and the other two are eternally busy.
-6e smashed my favoured army into dust, as I hate the look of heldrakes (and I refuse to play anything I don't like the model of).
-My parents detest 40k.

And then I get sore about the rest of it, because why the heck not.

But, I am moving on to collecting some IG. Because dayum LRBT's look smexy.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and also $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ but don't forget $$$$$$$$$$$

 Selym wrote:

 da001 wrote:

@Selym: try to find people who think like you. The game is really fun if the players want the same. To begin with, not everyone will run to buy the new book. I am still using 5th nids and 4th csm, and still playing some 5th edition with an old friend. There are also people playing 2nd, or house ruled variants. It is complicated, but not impossible.

If the game really feels so negative, I have found having a little break helps. A lot of people in this forum has stopped playing (temporarily or not) and are here for the background and the modelling (and the people, of course)

I end up having 3-6 month breaks between games because I have never seen a game over 500 points take less than 5 hours with anyone I can currently play. Which is really sad, as the times I've had games with my best friend (bro 4 lyfe), who has since moved away, were some of the most hilarious things I've ever done, and were usually done in under 3 hours, even though we have never played with turn limits between the two of us. And once respawned an entire 1500 point IG army, because I was totally owning him that day.

Really my problem boils down to the fact that:
-My playerbase is currently limited to about three people (excluding me), one of whom is a GW-loving rules-lawyering d-bag, and the other two are eternally busy.
-6e smashed my favoured army into dust, as I hate the look of heldrakes (and I refuse to play anything I don't like the model of).
-My parents detest 40k.

And then I get sore about the rest of it, because why the heck not.

But, I am moving on to collecting some IG. Because dayum LRBT's look smexy.

Moving to IG could be good. Make them look as traitor guard and you can still play Chaos if that´s your wish. I moved from csm to nids as primary army when csm got a Codex in 6th (my army was no longer legal) and then from nids to sm when the nids got a new Codex. It is good to have different armies.

The loss of veterans players in sixth is well known, but there is always the possibility of finding someone new. And then you have the Internet: I have been trying to get time to play Vassal 40k, and there is a Roll20 community too: https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/664857/warhammer-40k-community-tabletop-wargame-in-roll20#post-664857

I am also quite optimistic about the future. 3D printing is soon to change everything forever, and the new edition is probably going to be a good turning point for many players to find some alternative fun. I know at least 5 different w40k alternative fan-made rulesets being tested: 40k Revolution, Open40k, DRAL,... and this is just the beginning.

The last thing I read on Faeit: now many psykers (including loyalists, the example is a Dark Angel´s Librarian) will be able to summon daemons to the table, both lesser and even a Bloodthirster! Yeah! Fluffy players take that: my Space Marine Librarian just invoked a Screamer star to run with my centurion star and my Inquisitor and my Tau Riptide allies! You like the background? Find players with a similar thinking and rebuild.

Embrace the madness, bro. The rules of the game are changing.

One last thing: the significance of your parents´ opinion on your hobbies in your life will eventually become zero... (then you will probably get a wife to complain about it though).

 Klerych wrote:
It's funny when people tell me stuff like "40k community is actually made of many people with different opinions". Of course I know that, but if there's equal amount of hate and naysaying when GW does something as there is for it not doing that thing, why would they even pay attention to those people?

You seem to be working under the assumption that the only alternative to releasing 1 or 2 codexes a year is to rush out poorly thought out or unfinished material...

No matter what GW does, people will hate it equally anyway.

People by and large were quite positive about the new Knight models... it was only when their rules became known that any large number of complaints started.

Likewise, the new Stormicus Trooperus models got a fairly positive reception, up until the 2-unit codex was revealed.

And for all its faults, 6th edition initially had a fairly positive reception in a lot of areas. Until people started kicking the tyres and bits started falling off.


People are't complaining just to be in the 'in crowd'. They're complaining because they see (in their opinion) legitimate problems with what GW is doing. Most of us are all to happy to offer praise when it is warranted... it's just that over these last two years particularly, GW have given us very little that has warranted it.

 insaniak wrote:

People are't complaining just to be in the 'in crowd'. They're complaining because they see (in their opinion) legitimate problems with what GW is doing. Most of us are all to happy to offer praise when it is warranted... it's just that over these last two years particularly, GW have given us very little that has warranted it.

Exalted.
That's exactly how I feel and, for the most part, exactly what I see happening when threads about GW start going down hill.

Aslo it really annoys me seeing people say things like 'the fans will never be happy' because those same people ARE happy with other companies on the market* and 'we'll never please our customers so lets not try' is the exact opposite of how retail is supposed to work.


*A new edition of infinity has just been announced and there is no doom and gloom in that thread, nor is there wild speculation. People are happily discussing the news and new models we've got without much negativity at all.

I have almost 10k points in UMs, 2k points in Orks and 2k points in nurgle CSM. I will sell them all and start a 30k army if 7E sucks

I guess 6th was designed to fix 5th rather than thinking about the future. 7th will clear things up a bit, hopefully it will last the full four years this time.

KommissarKarl wrote:
I guess 6th was designed to fix 5th rather than thinking about the future. 7th will clear things up a bit, hopefully it will last the full four years this time.

GW don't release new editions to fix old ones, they simply change things.
Yes wound allocation and razorback spam is gone but they where replaced by other problems. Nothing got 'fixed' they just changed everything a little and that's how its been ever since 3rd ed.

 jonolikespie wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:
I guess 6th was designed to fix 5th rather than thinking about the future. 7th will clear things up a bit, hopefully it will last the full four years this time.

GW don't release new editions to fix old ones, they simply change things.
Yes wound allocation and razorback spam is gone but they where replaced by other problems. Nothing got 'fixed' they just changed everything a little and that's how its been ever since 3rd ed.

The fact that they made new problems doesn't mean they haven't fixed old ones.

Transport hammer was a problem, that got fixed. Wound allocation shenanigans was a problem, that got fixed. Ubiquitous 4+ cover was a problem, that got fixed. I fully expect 7th to fix some problems with 6th edition as it looks like Bound lists are doing already. Allies being freely available means vanilla armies have lost their appeal, so Bound bonuses are a way of potentially bringing that back. Similarly a psychic phase helps clean up the psychic system in 40k, which as it stands is a little irrational in that the casting of abilities is split between phases.

So imo they are going to fix at least two problems with 6th. That's not to say that it might not also create much larger problems, but as yet there is no evidence of that.

The best part of the new magic psychic phase is not needing to remind players to cast spells prior to moving their models that didn't come in from reserve.

Seriously, though, outside of wound allocation shenanigans and a few other issues, 5E was pretty good. Taking some 6E stuff back into 5E, making it necessary for vehicles to have 50% cover, bring back the old glancing mechanic, increase hull points all around, get rid of dumb stuff like MCs getting a cover save for having a toe in terrain, and Bob's Your Uncle... a solid edition of 40k.

KTG17 wrote:
Sorry I know there is the monster thread going on about 7th rumors, but since we all know its coming out now, I was wondering if anyone knew WHY. It seems really soon after DV, and while I am not crazy about everything in 6th, it still seemed to look like it was going well. I am not a hardcore 40k player like most of you, so I dont know whats wrong with the current version. I mean, I assume there must be issues if GW is doing this. Can anyone name a few reasons why this might be a good thing? What is terribly wrong with 6th?

Could it be poor sales?

Its pretty obvious, the stock tanked, and they aren't gaining enough money. That and I think there is a noticeable decline in 40k players as a whole because 6th is re-friggin-tarded. Its another desperate thrash from a company that doesn't listen to anyone but the sycophants that are leading them to damnation.

6th required a handful of tweaks, if they made a 6.5 rulebook and a big free FAQ then everything would have been fine, but instead we are getting the bill for what is essentially a recall, with an edition we didn't ask for with rules we didn't ask for or ever want. My theory is GW is trying to case out any of the rational, well versed and critical thinking group out so their core customers are the gooby derps that take it with a smile whenever GW says "bend over".

We email GW and tell them our concerns, they don't listen and cut off every avenue of interaction
We make our own fan stuff, they sue us.
We vote with our wallets, they raise prices and blame us for being too critical

I urge people to group buy the rule books, encouraging GWs behaviour will only ensure them pushing that boundary further.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
What bothers me is that some people are optimistic that this will be a solid edition and fix problems from 6th.

Does anybody realize how many books the GW design studio has released in the last two years? I think it was 22 army books over the course of 24 months. Does anybody actually believe that the people who wrote the DA flyers of the CSM Mutilators had enough time to write the 6th ed book, then two army books, and plan it all out for a new edition just a short while away? While releasing many other armies and supplements?

I have no faith that this will fell like anything other than a rushed release with rushed rules with rushed fixes.

Its almost guaranteed a copy paste job, and that $120 Canadian price tag isn't looking good to me, a lot of people I know are group buying it and making personal copies through staples and the like. Personally Im getting as many iPad friends as I can on my apple ID to bring the cost way down.

Point is, this might be the exact same scenario that sunk TSR if this book sells like junk.

Well, based on what you guys have all said, I am thinking this wasnt a very spontaneous decision by GW. I am sure it takes some time to plan a release. The feeling I get is this is going to be the way of the future. I bet GW moves WFB to a new set every 2 years too.

I remember Jervis saying that I think the 4th or 5th edition Space Marine codex was considered a failure because if failed to pull in new players or something like that,so they released a new one not too long after. I think what he was saying was it failed to increase Space Marine sales.

I am sure 40k and WFB get a big boost in sales when the new starter sets come out. And at this point, it seems when GW updates a book, there are only a few NEW units and maybe some tweaks to existing models. Besides that, the models are all the same. So if you have an existing Space Marine army, you might be tempted to buy the couple of new models when the next codex comes out, but at the same time if you already have everything you want, you might not. And with GW cranking out so many codexes so fast, with increased prices, where most of their fans are veterans of previous editions and therefore have existing armies, then I can see how sales wouldnt be as great as they want per army.

Seems to be then that releasing a new set every 2 years would sort of keep interest. The problem is, think about peeps who buy those nice limited edition rulebooks, and are now told the book is useless... it sucks. As I said before, GW could release a new starter set every year and I would buy it, if the rulebook was the same, but with a new scenerio/starter book. Like a splash product. And it would give you a base to try out a new army (assuming they would change the armies each time. I think that would kick ass.

Another thing I thought of... is how the new edition screws up the codexes/army books. If the rules for CC are friendly to CC units, and those units cost X points, then when the rules change to make CC harder for CC units, and their existing codex still has those units at X points, they seem to me to be over-valued (and vice-versa). I think that is what causes a lot of broken rules. Its not necessarily the rules per say, but the cost of the units dont reflect their abilities in the new rules. Since GW doesnt release stats and points in the new rulebooks (like 3rd), then you are stuck using the costs that were developed during a previous edition. God this is all more screwed up than I thought. No wonder its all a mess.

 TheKbob wrote:
The best part of the new magic psychic phase is not needing to remind players to cast spells prior to moving their models that didn't come in from reserve.

Seriously, though, outside of wound allocation shenanigans and a few other issues, 5E was pretty good. Taking some 6E stuff back into 5E, making it necessary for vehicles to have 50% cover, bring back the old glancing mechanic, increase hull points all around, get rid of dumb stuff like MCs getting a cover save for having a toe in terrain, and Bob's Your Uncle... a solid edition of 40k.

All that's left would be to rebalance the codexes - buff up CSM, Nids, Orks etc, Nerfhammer the worst of the overpowered combos somehow, and I think we'll all be set. After that, I'd be more than happy for GW to make expansions and dataslates to further extend the game.

Could be perfect.

i do agree that MCs and terrain are kinda WTF-worthy lol. Theyre often larger than most vehicles, and benefit from area terrain ... ? sense = none... Not the only terrain bullcrap rule but its the most used one.

To me, since vehicles have hullpoints and almost none of them have an inert save, vehicles shouldnt be allowed to Explode! unless it was their last hullpoint or an AP1 weapon. Without either of those, it just takes another HP off. No idea how irritating it is to have a weapon that needs a 6 to pen just happen to roll a 6 on the result and pop a heavy vehicle even though it was AP4/5 lol. In 5E it was that bad because it was the only way to kill a vehicle - well now i kill vehicles by glancing them to death with my firewarriors or broadsides more than i do with a hammerhead lol. i would be rather boned if they removed the HP system.

As much as i like overwatch (obviously since im Tau lol) i think it should go. Some armies just get hurt way too bad by that + remove from front rules, namely Orks/CSM/Nidz even in the new dex. If anything, only allow Assault, Pistol, or Relentless models to overwatch but nothing else.

Transport hammer was a problem, that got fixed. Wound allocation shenanigans was a problem, that got fixed. Ubiquitous 4+ cover was a problem, that got fixed.

And then they made eldar , which brought back transport hammer on crack , with uber cover for their tanks. Take about a U turn.



I just hope that the unbound thing won't bring any stupid lists . And I don't mean those 10 riptide ones ,if someone wants to spend that much cash on 10 models , his choice , although it probably would have been better to buy a w30k army . I just hope there won't be any Inquisitor coteaz and his 12AM psyker friends in a bastion trying to spam summon demons.

Makumba wrote:

Transport hammer was a problem, that got fixed. Wound allocation shenanigans was a problem, that got fixed. Ubiquitous 4+ cover was a problem, that got fixed.

And then they made eldar , which brought back transport hammer on crack , with uber cover for their tanks. Take about a U turn.



I just hope that the unbound thing won't bring any stupid lists . And I don't mean those 10 riptide ones ,if someone wants to spend that much cash on 10 models , his choice , although it probably would have been better to buy a w30k army . I just hope there won't be any Inquisitor coteaz and his 12AM psyker friends in a bastion trying to spam summon demons.

Eh it's not a U turn, Kelly did the same thing for Falcon's in 4th.

Why is GW releasing a new edition so soon? Well, because they can!

GW will continue to push the boundaries of releases, shortening lifespan, up'ing prices, dividing content out into more purchases etc. And why shouldn't they? People seem adamant to buy their goods; clamoring for any new (40k) item.

Heck, GW is one of the few companies that I've seen customers adamantly defend against any and all complaints, no matter how legitimate. It's really quite impressive. Seriously, GW could lower the 40k rulebook lifespan to a new book every six months to a year, up the cost by 25%, tweak the rules just enough to make using a previous edition a pain, and the books will sell like crazy. They've done a good job impressing this idea on us that GW materials should cost more! I mean, how often do you look at the cost of an item and say "yeah, that's what I expected" (Note: I say expected, not what you think is reasonable)

Will GW go in the opposite direction if pressured by loss of consumer demand? Maybe, it seems like the WE release is a bit cheaper than previous WHFB release cycles, so I think that GW will get the message if their health continues to dwindle. But I'm not sure that making the product more affordable to a larger population is really their goal, they feel like they're Louis Vouitton, and would rather destroy old product than sell it at discount (which is literally what both companies do). Instead they'll keep searching for ways to pull more money out of their customers, it will just be up to us (the customers) on how much of this we will put up with.

I think I figured out why 7th is coming out so soon:

GW wants to sell all the Sisters players a new codex with even LESS models in it!

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I think I figured out why 7th is coming out so soon:

GW wants to sell all the Sisters players a new codex with even LESS models in it!

I wonder if SOB will even be mentioned in the new 7th.

Have people completely forgotten about Kill Team? I don't understand the complaints about how GW needs to make a small focused game, when they already have and it's existed for a while.

As for me, I just hope that GW continues to exist so they continue producing the models, which are largely what I care about. There's nothing forcing me to use each new edition, I can get and print PDF's of the old rulebooks, grab some friends, and have small skirmishes with the smaller armies. There's no reason why I need to bother about new editions unless it has good fluff or you play tournaments.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I think I figured out why 7th is coming out so soon:

GW wants to sell all the Sisters players a new codex with even LESS models in it!

I wonder if SOB will even be mentioned in the new 7th.

Yes, because it wouldn't be a new edition without the Sisters players getting strung along some more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Have people completely forgotten about Kill Team? I don't understand the complaints about how GW needs to make a small focused game, when they already have and it's existed for a while.

I haven't but the availability of the rules is pants for giving it to new players. It needs to be in the core rulebook.

 dementedwombat wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I'm still amazing that GW is still operating.

IMO, im not marketing or economist expert, but it would be to drop the prices on all their units, encourage people to build bigger armies, play larger games, collect more.

Right now people are being so picky and choosy about what they buy or what army to start because it so freaking expensive to build one, that if you buy a tac squad then find out its garbo, your are out 40 bucks.

I haven't ever really minded the price of 40k as much, because pretty much any wargame is going to have a very high cost. As far as I can tell the 40k models are priced competitively with 28mm models from other companies that aren't Mantic, but you need a lot more 40k models than you do models from most other 28mm games in order to have a functional army. I will admit my experience with 28mm wargames is kind of limited (historical games aren't something I've looked at) so I could be totally wrong.

It could also have something to do with the fact that GW miniatures are actually really detailed and have tons of pieces and options relative to a lot of other companies. I know that the first time I opened a box from a non-GW miniatures company I was greeted by a plastic bag full of loose parts and no instructions. That was a very eye opening experience.

Speaking to historical games, and someone who has purchased WGF, Foundry, Warlord, Perry, GB, and others. GW's minis aren't exceptional in terms of options. Conquest, Gripping Beast, Wargames Factory, and Warlord all make some bitz crazy plastic sets for much less than a GW set. Now, for some of those, quality may be a less (WGF is hit and miss on quality), but not significantly so as to ruin them beyond redemption.

I'll also take Perry or Empress quality sculpts every day over GW. Their stuff blows GW out of the water for level of detail and kit, very impressive stuff. Similarly, while they are still 'heroic', Warlord's US Airborne have also really impressed me with quality of sculpting (loads of little details that GW would just gloss over).

I don't have any experience with Fireforge, but have heard lots of good things about them.

In short, personal experience tells me that GW has neither the quantity of bits nor quality of sculpt so sufficiently covered to justify prices.

10 Space Marines - $40

44 Viking Hirdmen (Gripping Beast) - $35 dollars and tons of options (http://www.architectsofwar.com/grippingbeastplasticvikinghirdmen.aspx)
44 Norman Infantry (Conquest) - $32
15 Norman Knights (Conquest) - $32
24 Templar Foot (Fireforge) - $32
12 Templar Knights (Fireforge) - $32
25 American Infantry (Warlord) - $38
32 Saxon Thegns (Wargames Factory) - $22
20 Eisenkern (Dreamforge) - $43
30 German/American/Soviet Infantry in a box (Wargames Factory) - $22
38 Desert Rats (Perry Plastics) - $32
6 Samurai (Perry Metal) - $12

If you want tanks, planes, etc these are also cheaply obtainable in relevant scale from a glut of model companies. Now, GW vehicle kits are much easier to build, but if you are talking detail, Revell, Monogram, Academy, and others blow GW away and cost 1/3rd the price.