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It seems like some people hear the word bully and lose their damn minds. It's an 11 year old kid. Plenty of 11 year old kids are little fethers, but the idea that the only way of dealing with one is to physically accost them on a bus is absolutely mad.

 TheMeanDM wrote:
I just clarified the incident a little, as people seem to be assigning far more inflammatory language into the act than what apparently occurred.

To clarify the father of the 9 year old victim did not:

-- beat
-- pummel
-- strike
-- batter
-- pound
-- punch
-- hit
-- kick

the 11 year old bully.

He didn't beat the gak out of him, or kick his arse, or anything like that.

He grabbed him out of his seat on the bus and shoved him into the wall of the bus.

To clarify, it is not acceptable for a grown man to grab a kid out of his seat and shove him in to the wall of a bus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Piston Honda wrote:
I doubt the bullies' aunt really cares. If anything she should thank him for doing something about the savage little kum stain before he ends up in prison later in life.

You're actually telling a story in your head where this is a future criminal... based on what? Some other person saying he's a bully.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jimsolo wrote:
A bully is an animal. The ONLY thing they respect is a bigger, meaner animal.

I'm fething over this bully fad thing.

There's this really simple, easy narrative where the bully is defined like the above, and the bully relationship is defined as this one way, bully and victim relationship. That does happen, but it's far from how most 'bullying' works. And so easy answers like yours above actually just come out as really damn weird.

Take one case at the school my sister works at - this kid refused to hand the bat over when he got out, so the other kids didn't want to play with him anymore. Eventually it led to a fight, and this kid lost. The kid who won the fight got deemed a bully and now he's been denied extra-curricular activities until he and his parents have been through counseling at the school. But the kid wasn't pursuing the 'victim', and he didn't start the fight. He didn't have to deal with it as he did, but the end result of just assuming one kid was the bully and the other kid nothing but a victim produced a nonsense result, the 'victim' has continued to antagonise and annoy other kids, and it's believed he's been involved in at least one other fight. But he's the victim, so...

 sebster wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
A bully is an animal. The ONLY thing they respect is a bigger, meaner animal.

I'm fething over this bully fad thing.

There's this really simple, easy narrative where the bully is defined like the above, and the bully relationship is defined as this one way, bully and victim relationship. That does happen, but it's far from how most 'bullying' works. And so easy answers like yours above actually just come out as really damn weird.

Take one case at the school my sister works at - this kid refused to hand the bat over when he got out, so the other kids didn't want to play with him anymore. Eventually it led to a fight, and this kid lost. The kid who won the fight got deemed a bully and now he's been denied extra-curricular activities until he and his parents have been through counseling at the school. But the kid wasn't pursuing the 'victim', and he didn't start the fight. He didn't have to deal with it as he did, but the end result of just assuming one kid was the bully and the other kid nothing but a victim produced a nonsense result, the 'victim' has continued to antagonise and annoy other kids, and it's believed he's been involved in at least one other fight. But he's the victim, so...

Sorry Sebster. I didn't take the recent trend of labeling anyone blamed for problems a 'bully' into account. (And I agree that the kid in your story got hosed. Sounds, somewhat ironically, like he was probably at the receiving end of a bully-victim relationship.)

I assumed we all had a reasonable definition of 'bully' in our minds. I shall rephrase.

Some people are just animals. And the only thing those people respect is a bigger, meaner animal.

 Jimsolo wrote:


Some people are just animals. And the only thing those people respect is a bigger, meaner animal.

I'd just like to point out that bullies are bigger meaner animals.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Sorry Sebster. I didn't take the recent trend of labeling anyone blamed for problems a 'bully' into account.

Sure. Sorry if I sounded off against you in particular. It's just I've had this building up for a while. The whole anti-bullying thing started so positively, and is now getting steadily buried amidst a load of poorly thought out good intent.

(And I agree that the kid in your story got hosed. Sounds, somewhat ironically, like he was probably at the receiving end of a bully-victim relationship.)

The thing is that there just isn't a bullying relationship there at all. There's two kids who lack conflict resolution skills, because they're kids, and a school that reflexively had to apply a bully/victim relationship to the issue.

Some people are just animals. And the only thing those people respect is a bigger, meaner animal.

That is true. And this kid might be like that. Or he might just be a kid who's having some conflict with another kid, before the dad just came out of nowhere and assaulted him.

I really doubt the father would have gone as far as he did withouth there being some serious issues between his son an the other kid, more than just 'conflict'. At a guess, I imagine there was some long ongoing, verbal and likely physical abuse of his child, that the school had failed to resolve (this action can't have been a first resort).

So while there is certainly an argument that he went too far, which I've already discussed, the fact is that kids who are capable of and willing to push other kids around just because they are 'different' respond only to one thing, and that is being pushed around themselves. It's the only language they understand.

Also, to slightly rephrase something I said earlier in the thread, if it had, for argument's sake, been the victim's (and I mean the 9 year old, not the bully) hypothetical older brother (around 16-18, for example), that had done the same thing, what would those of you condemning the father say? I's the same principle of a bully being put in his place and shown he's not as tough or invincible as he thinks, but because it's not an adult, would the reaction be different? Purely out of interest.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Where did you live at DT?

Glendale initially and then the San Gabriel Valley. My high school was in the SGV area which is predominantly middle-class and likely a major factor for why my experience differed from PH's school experience.

We didn't have a lot of teenage pregnancy in my school. I think there were two or three pregnancies that I was aware of during my four years in high school, though certainly a number of girls had kids shortly after high school. We had a pretty even mix of Caucasian, Hispanic and Asian students with Caucasian and Asian students split as the majority followed by Hispanic students and "everyone else" making up the rest of the population.

I have no doubt that economics and demographics influenced a large part of my school experience versus PH's school experience, but I only interjected my anecdote to offer up another side of the argument that California schools abandon their students--which isn't always true. There are some great public schools in the state that get over-shadowed by the gakky ones.

The people I knew were from Pomona, Ontario, and Montclair.

Paradigm very much parallels thought that I had but have not proposed.....

If the 9 year old is incapable of defending himself....

And the 9 year old has no friends or other peers willing to defend him....

And th he school has failed to defend the 9 year old from bullying....

Who is left to defend this child?

If there is nobody else than it falls to family...and I would hope that family would jump to your defense.

I therefore applaud the father for defending his son....the problem with his actions, though, is that he left a mark.

He didn't need to shove the kid against the wall....just grabbing him and invading his space in an intimidating manner may have gotten the job done.

 Paradigm wrote:
I really doubt the father would have gone as far as he did withouth there being some serious issues between his son an the other kid, more than just 'conflict'.

Maybe. We're talking about a grown man who's assaulted an 11 year old, there's every chance he's something of a nut.

The idea that we're talking about a father who's been pushed to the end of his rope is an assumption lots of people have made, because that's a story we're telling a lot right now. But it isn't necessarily true, or even more likely than not.

So while there is certainly an argument that he went too far, which I've already discussed, the fact is that kids who are capable of and willing to push other kids around just because they are 'different' respond only to one thing, and that is being pushed around themselves. It's the only language they understand.

Such kids exist, yeah. But the assumption that any instance involves one such kid is really dangerous, and becoming more and more common as this bullying story becomes increasingly dominant.

Also, to slightly rephrase something I said earlier in the thread, if it had, for argument's sake, been the victim's (and I mean the 9 year old, not the bully) hypothetical older brother (around 16-18, for example), that had done the same thing, what would those of you condemning the father say? I's the same principle of a bully being put in his place and shown he's not as tough or invincible as he thinks, but because it's not an adult, would the reaction be different? Purely out of interest.

A 16 year old beating up an 11 year old is still unacceptable, but not as much as a grown man doing the same, simply because we place lower expectations on the behaviour of children than we do on grown adults.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheMeanDM wrote:
Paradigm very much parallels thought that I had but have not proposed.....

If the 9 year old is incapable of defending himself....

And the 9 year old has no friends or other peers willing to defend him....

And th he school has failed to defend the 9 year old from bullying....

Who is left to defend this child?

If there is nobody else than it falls to family...and I would hope that family would jump to your defense.

If this is actually an instance of bullying where the 9 year old was only trying to avoid contact with the 11 year old.

If the kid's peers were unwilling or unable to resolve the situation.

If the school was unwilling or unable to resolve the situation.

Then well, yeah, as long as we're willing to just guess that all those things are true, then we can start talking about what the Dad needs to do.

He was drunk, at the morning bus pick up. Worst Dad EVAAAA!

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
He was drunk, at the morning bus pick up. Worst Dad EVAAAA!

Drunk at breakfast??? More like BEST DAD EVERRRR!!! (well, just so long as he stays in his happy, "party on dude!" drunk mode)

Bullies are just weak. The trick to not getting bullied is to be totally unpredictable and to fly off the handle at everything. Also, smoke cigarettes and wear a motorcycle jacket.

Yeah, totally overboard though. His son is autistic though, so I really don't think there's much he could do for himself.

 Paradigm wrote:

So while there is certainly an argument that he went too far, which I've already discussed, the fact is that kids who are capable of and willing to push other kids around just because they are 'different' respond only to one thing, and that is being pushed around themselves. It's the only language they understand.

Considering only this particular incident: the father's actions have placed him in jail for felony charges which may cost him his job and prevent him from providing for his son, while also exposing the child to further bullying at the hands of a likely irate 11 year old with special needs of his own.

The larger point being that sure, such people respond to that "language", but it may not actually improve the situation; in fact it can greatly worsen it for the victim.

Well, obviously the dad should have killed the bully, his entire family, his extended family, used necromancy to bring back all his dead relatives and kill them again, then feed the hamster to the dead bully.

In other words...seriously out of line, but also quite understandable that he did it when his mentally handicapped son was being bullied.

 Captain Fantastic wrote:
His son is autistic though, so I really don't think there's much he could do for himself.

Well, ASD is a highly varied series of conditions. One ASD sufferer may have only minimal symptoms relating to social interaction or compulsive behavior, while another may have difficulty doing things like walking through doors. We don't know the supposed victim's degree of functionality, so its hard to say what he could or couldn't have done for himself.

We also don't know why the alleged bully was in a special needs system.

Anyway, this...

Hurd might have fared infinitesimally better several hours down the road in the Los Angeles suburb of Carson City, where the city council narrowly rejected an ordinance that would have made bullying by children as young as 5-years-old a crime punishable by misdemeanor charges and fines of $100. (RELATED: Nanny State Run Amok: Police Will Now Ticket, Charge 5-Year-Olds For Bullying)

...is what stood out to me. A city in California really wanted to charge 5 year old kids with misdemeanors?

 dogma wrote:

...is what stood out to me. A city in California really wanted to charge 5 year old kids with misdemeanors?

Feth that... a 5 year old on a sugar high after recess... there's no stopping them. I say try 'em as an adult and go full on, felony harassment charges

 sebster wrote:

The idea that we're talking about a father who's been pushed to the end of his rope is an assumption lots of people have made, because that's a story we're telling a lot right now. But it isn't necessarily true, or even more likely than not.

I think that's a fair assumption because I like to think that grown men don't tend to idly slam children against walls. But I also think that there's a decent chance it wasn't just what may, or may not, have been happening to his son which pushed him to this.

The dude was angry for a reason, or series of reasons, which range from his son being bullied to his significant other leaving him.

"Son. If he bullying you this is what you can do. First off there is no rules in a fist fight. Always play to win. Kick him and punch him in the nuts. Repeatedly. Till he is puking or a adult pulls you off him. Don't worry I pretend to be mad when they call me in to talk about the fight. Just pretend to be real scared. Afterwards is Baskin and Robbin time. Four scoops on me"

Oh and if he does it again. Make him puke again."

 Jihadin wrote:
"Son. If he bullying you this is what you can do. First off there is no rules in a fist fight. Always play to win. Kick him and punch him in the nuts. Repeatedly. Till he is puking or a adult pulls you off him. Don't worry I pretend to be mad when they call me in to talk about the fight. Just pretend to be real scared. Afterwards is Baskin and Robbin time. Four scoops on me"

Oh and if he does it again. Make him puke again."

I fully intend on using this approach with my children.

I'll pretend to be mad, but make it semi-obvious I'm not. Just to piss the school employees off.

On the other hand, if any my kids turn out to be a bully. I will be actual mad.

I think I become unhinge and destroy the PS3/Xbox360 to show how pissed I am that he turned into a bully. More mad at myself for ensuring he not be one

 dogma wrote:
I think that's a fair assumption because I like to think that grown men don't tend to idly slam children against walls. But I also think that there's a decent chance it wasn't just what may, or may not, have been happening to his son which pushed him to this.

The dude was angry for a reason, or series of reasons, which range from his son being bullied to his significant other leaving him.

If we knew the guy to otherwise be an upright citizen, then it might be a reasonable assumption. But all we know is that he's assaulted an 11 year old kid, so there's every chance he's actually a nut.

dogma wrote:

 Captain Fantastic wrote:
His son is autistic though, so I really don't think there's much he could do for himself.

Well, ASD is a highly varied series of conditions. One ASD sufferer may have only minimal symptoms relating to social interaction or compulsive behavior, while another may have difficulty doing things like walking through doors. We don't know the supposed victim's degree of functionality, so its hard to say what he could or couldn't have done for himself.

This is a very good point, and one I was intending to look into. Just because the kid is 'autistic' (and the media does love to use that label on anyone anywhere on the autistic spectrum) does not mean he couldn't defend himself. He may well have been severely autistic, but until I know for sure, I won't use that as proof he was defenceless.

More likely, it was the fact that the kid was 2 years younger than the bully, so less physically strong or mentally prepared. The ultimate point is still the same, someone else needs to stick up for him.

TheMeanDM wrote:Paradigm very much parallels thought that I had but have not proposed.....

If the 9 year old is incapable of defending himself....

And the 9 year old has no friends or other peers willing to defend him....

And th he school has failed to defend the 9 year old from bullying....

Who is left to defend this child?

If there is nobody else than it falls to family...and I would hope that family would jump to your defense.

I therefore applaud the father for defending his son...

Pretty much put this better than I could. Despite the caveat we've both mentioned of going a little too far, the father standing up for his kid is something that can hardly be condemned, and to be honest, I'd think worse of him if he had let this persist, as that would be tantamount to negligence on his part, and attempting to deal with bullying (especially at the age of 9) without a supportive family would be almost impossible, I imagine.

I think it's very possible the school failed to resolve the issue, as for a school to have on their records that someone has been expelled/excluded for bullying is a blemish they very rarely want. It's a simple fact that has led to the idea that 'the bullies need support and mustn't be punished' because it makes things easier for the school to deal with and looks better on their records. It's abhorrent, but an unfortunate reality.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
"Son. If he bullying you this is what you can do. First off there is no rules in a fist fight. Always play to win. Kick him and punch him in the nuts. Repeatedly. Till he is puking or a adult pulls you off him. Don't worry I pretend to be mad when they call me in to talk about the fight. Just pretend to be real scared. Afterwards is Baskin and Robbin time. Four scoops on me"

Oh and if he does it again. Make him puke again."

I fully intend on using this approach with my children.

I'll pretend to be mad, but make it semi-obvious I'm not. Just to piss the school employees off.

On the other hand, if any my kids turn out to be a bully. I will be actual mad.

I agree with all of this, except for one thing... I won't bother acting mad until I know "who started it"

And yeah, if either of my offspring turn into bullies, it's on like donkey kong

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
"Son. If he bullying you this is what you can do. First off there is no rules in a fist fight. Always play to win. Kick him and punch him in the nuts. Repeatedly. Till he is puking or a adult pulls you off him. Don't worry I pretend to be mad when they call me in to talk about the fight. Just pretend to be real scared. Afterwards is Baskin and Robbin time. Four scoops on me"

Oh and if he does it again. Make him puke again."

I fully intend on using this approach with my children.

I'll pretend to be mad, but make it semi-obvious I'm not. Just to piss the school employees off.

On the other hand, if any my kids turn out to be a bully. I will be actual mad.

Exactly.

Exactly what I told my two boys.