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wargamer1985 wrote:
1. FAQS are not official and therefor in tournaments have no standing

...unless the tournament in question chooses to use them. And most do.

The GW FAQs are also commonly accepted by the 40K community as the way the game is 'supposed' to be played, which is why they are accepted for discussion here.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
Was looking through all the stuff in FAQs and codex and couldn't find anything. Still checking for how Pink Horrors get 2 powers, codex and FAQ don't mention this and I never played with or against Daemons

They randomly generate one and get one for Focus.

Most ML1 Psykers will have at least 2 powers.

That's right, forgot about the focus.

This is another exclusive thing that isn't effected by ML either though, so even with the Focus, you still wouldn't be able to roll for the unit in question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
None of this really matters. We have SPECIFIC permission to generate a power from Deamonology. Now that conflicts with the fact that the shadowseer has one set power, is ML 1, and is therefore restricted by the BRB. Please tell me which source of rules wins out in a direct conflict?

Also as a RAI note, by your logicm the Hemlock could also not generate a power from Daemonology. If this is the case, please tell my why they included "Psychic Pilot" in the FAQ when the Hemlock is the ONLY unit with that rule?

The problem with the Wraithfighter, is it has a special rule as part of the Psyker special rule that specifically says that the Wraithfighter does not roll for powers.

The Shadowseer, however, does not have this note.

Right what I am trying to point out is that:
A: Hemlock rules deny it permission to roll for powers.
B: FAQ grans the Hemlock Permission to roll on Daemonology.

This is a clear conflict, and I believe that the FAQ take precedence.

For the Shadowseer:
A: BRB rules state that a ML 1 can only know 1 power (except psychic focus)
B: FAQ grants the Shadowseer permission to generate a power from Daemonology.

This is also a conflict. One rule says I can, the other says I cannot. FAQ takes precedence.

There is no conflict. The FAQ only states that you add Daemonology to the list of choices you would normally select from before you roll on a power. It is not giving you an additional roll.

This statement is false.

FAQ says
"Any model with the Psyker or Psychic Pilot special rule may generate powers from the Deamonology discipline in addition to the others listed in their Army List Entries."

Permission generate means that we have permission to roll on the tree. How else do you think anything from the Eldar codex would generate a power from Daemonology?

If what you say is true then how many powers do you generate? You already know one, and thus are breaking the mastery levels rules in order to generate any powers beyond the one you know. So where does it stop... do you generate one power, or do you have to generate 2 because powers is plural? gak why not generate 14 and know every power in both Daemenology trees...

Yes... codex trumps BRB... but specific trumps general. And the shadowseer knowing one specific power and not generating powers because it already knows it's maximum allotment is a far more specific rule than a blanket permission to generate an undefined number of powers.

chanceafs wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
Was looking through all the stuff in FAQs and codex and couldn't find anything. Still checking for how Pink Horrors get 2 powers, codex and FAQ don't mention this and I never played with or against Daemons

They randomly generate one and get one for Focus.

Most ML1 Psykers will have at least 2 powers.

That's right, forgot about the focus.

This is another exclusive thing that isn't effected by ML either though, so even with the Focus, you still wouldn't be able to roll for the unit in question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
None of this really matters. We have SPECIFIC permission to generate a power from Deamonology. Now that conflicts with the fact that the shadowseer has one set power, is ML 1, and is therefore restricted by the BRB. Please tell me which source of rules wins out in a direct conflict?

Also as a RAI note, by your logicm the Hemlock could also not generate a power from Daemonology. If this is the case, please tell my why they included "Psychic Pilot" in the FAQ when the Hemlock is the ONLY unit with that rule?

The problem with the Wraithfighter, is it has a special rule as part of the Psyker special rule that specifically says that the Wraithfighter does not roll for powers.

The Shadowseer, however, does not have this note.

Right what I am trying to point out is that:
A: Hemlock rules deny it permission to roll for powers.
B: FAQ grans the Hemlock Permission to roll on Daemonology.

This is a clear conflict, and I believe that the FAQ take precedence.

For the Shadowseer:
A: BRB rules state that a ML 1 can only know 1 power (except psychic focus)
B: FAQ grants the Shadowseer permission to generate a power from Daemonology.

This is also a conflict. One rule says I can, the other says I cannot. FAQ takes precedence.

There is no conflict. The FAQ only states that you add Daemonology to the list of choices you would normally select from before you roll on a power. It is not giving you an additional roll.

This statement is false.

FAQ says
"Any model with the Psyker or Psychic Pilot special rule may generate powers from the Deamonology discipline in addition to the others listed in their Army List Entries."

Permission generate means that we have permission to roll on the tree. How else do you think anything from the Eldar codex would generate a power from Daemonology?

If what you say is true then how many powers do you generate? You already know one, and thus are breaking the mastery levels rules in order to generate any powers beyond the one you know. So where does it stop... do you generate one power, or do you have to generate 2 because powers is plural? gak why not generate 14 and know every power in both Daemenology trees...

Yes... codex trumps BRB... but specific trumps general. And the shadowseer knowing one specific power and not generating powers because it already knows it's maximum allotment is a far more specific rule than a blanket permission to generate an undefined number of powers.

I didn't bring up this before as I thought it was obvious, so I must be missing something, but indeed, you are Mastery level 1, you know 1 power, how many more may you generate?

The FAQ offers another discipline you may roll on . If you have no ML free to roll, then while you have permission to roll on the table you have no rolls left to do so. Some psykers may generate powers from several different disciplines, but are ML1. Just because they have permission to generate powers from several disciplines doesn't mean they can roll several powers.

The quantifiable aspect for powers known (Excluding focus) is the ML of the psyker , not how many disciplines or which disciplines he may generate powers from - and the FAQ does not change ML at all.


How many Eldar Psykers have more listed disciplines than their mastery level?
may generate powers from the Deamonology discipline in addition to the others listed in their army list entry.
In addition to others, so can Eldar normally roll for each discipline listed in their entry regardless of their ML?

The BRB says everything except Tyranids can generate powers from demonology. Does it give everyone a extra roll? or just open up the option of generating from that discipline if able.


Problem is the use of 'Others' in the sentence and what it's pertaining to.
-may generate powers from the Deamonology discipline in addition to the other powers listed in their army list entry.
-may generate powers from the Deamonology discipline in addition to the other disciplines listed in their army list entry.

 Nem wrote:
How many Eldar Psykers have more listed disciplines than their mastery level?

All except Eldrad.
Eldrad and Farseers can roll on 4 Disiciplines. Spiritseers can roll on 3, and Warlocks can roll on 2.

Or are you not including Daemonology in your question? One could argue that Daemonology is two Disciplines (Sanctic and Malefic), meaning the numbers above would all be bumped up by 1.

 Nem wrote:

Problem is the use of 'Others' in the sentence and what it's pertaining to.
-may generate powers from the Deamonology discipline in addition to the other powers listed in their army list entry.
-may generate powers from the Deamonology discipline in addition to the other disciplines listed in their army list entry.

Your second sentence is correct. 'Others' in this case means disciplines. I say this with 100% certainty because powers aren't listed in the Eldar army list entry section (Eldar Codex, page 90-103), disciplines are.
And if you look at the Shadowseer and Hemlock Wraithfighter entries, you will see that they do not have disciplines listed in their individual army list entries; therefore, they cannot generate powers from Daemonology.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Nem wrote:
How many Eldar Psykers have more listed disciplines than their mastery level?

All except Eldrad.
Eldrad and Farseers can roll on 4 Disiciplines. Spiritseers can roll on 3, and Warlocks can roll on 2.

Or are you not including Daemonology in your question? One could argue that Daemonology is two Disciplines (Sanctic and Malefic), meaning the numbers above would all be bumped up by 1.

I think demonology would be one, based on the rules extract from the BRB describing it as A discipline with two sets of powers, but counting as different disciplines for Focus, I would take that as the only purpose they are considered two disciplines (unless otherwise stated).

But much to do with how the sentence is read, and one you read it one way it's hard to see the other, took me a few days of checking this thread to even understand where the extra roll may be coming from. Problem with the rules debate then is it's impossible to prove.

That said, I stick by my first reading, that I believe it to be in addition to other disciplines listed, which then would be a no.

wargamer1985 wrote:
1. FAQS are not official and therefor in tournaments have no standing

??? This is wrong. The FAQs are published by GW. What makes you think they are not offical? Also. I cant think of one GT that doesnt use the FAQs. Where are you getting your information?

The FAQ gives the Shadowseer (and any other Psyker or Psychic Pilot in the Eldar Codex) Specific permission to generate powers from Deamonology. This is a direct conflict with the BRB. As I have quoted above, The BRB tells us that the Codex always takes precedence in a direct conflict. The FAQ is an ammendment to the Codex, and thus takes precedence over any conflicting rules in the BRB.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

If what you say is true then how many powers do you generate? You already know one, and thus are breaking the mastery levels rules in order to generate any powers beyond the one you know. So where does it stop... do you generate one power, or do you have to generate 2 because powers is plural? gak why not generate 14 and know every power in both Daemenology trees...

Yes... codex trumps BRB... but specific trumps general. And the shadowseer knowing one specific power and not generating powers because it already knows it's maximum allotment is a far more specific rule than a blanket permission to generate an undefined number of powers.

They number of powers you generate would be dependent on mastery level as outlined in the BRB
The rule is plural only in the sense that it is refering to multiple psykers.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
??? This is wrong. The FAQs are published by GW. What makes you think they are not offical?

The download page on the GW website used to say as much. They considered their own FAQs to be 'unofficial house rules'.

That comment doesn't appear on the Black Library FAQ & Errata section.

The thing is this isn't a FAQ, it is an Amendment, which per the updates is to bring the codex up to date with the latest version of the rules.

 Happyjew wrote:
The thing is this isn't a FAQ, it is an Amendment, which per the updates is to bring the codex up to date with the latest version of the rules.

This is true. I see it as a blanket change every psyker in the codex. To me the biggest thing here is the inclusion of "Psychic Pilot." To me, that makes it seem like they almost definately intended for the Helmock to be able to roll on Daemonology, which directly conflicts with the Hemlock's rules.

They start with a set power, yes they can access daemonology but they can't roll on it because their power is set.

The brb clearly states that if a psyker starts with a specific power they can't drop it.

There's no conflict...

Shingen wrote:
They start with a set power, yes they can access daemonology but they can't roll on it because their power is set.

The brb clearly states that if a psyker starts with a specific power they can't drop it.

There's no conflict...

Okay you are not understanding the conflict I guess.

FAQ gives very specific permission for all Psykers and Psychic Pilots from Codex Eldar to GENERATE powers from Daemonology. GENERATING would include rolling on the tree.

Here is the Ammendment again:
"Any model with the Psyker or Psychic Pilot special rule may generate powers from the Deamonology discipline in addition to the others listed in their Army List Entries."

The Shadowseer is a model with the Psyker special rule. When we replace the underlined part of the rule with "The Shadowseer," and adjust the grammar to fit a singular subject, it looks like this:
"The Shadowseer may generate powers from the Deamonology discipline in addition to the others listed in its Army List Entry."

How are you not seeing that as a direct conflict?

You're assuming generate means roll randomly. You haven't proven that.

rigeld2 wrote:
You're assuming generate means roll randomly. You haven't proven that.

Yes I have. Would you like me to quote the relevant rules again? Either way that argument falls very short as well. The ONLY way for any model in the Eldar codex to generate a Daemonology power is to roll randomly.

But shadowseers can't because they start with a specific one and the BRB states they can't change it.

Yes they have access but can't roll in it.

I really don't see how you can have three pages discussing whether or not you can ignore the following sentence in the BRB:

"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."

No you cannot generate random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to the Shadowseer BECAUSE it already has specific psychic powers listed.

The wording of the FAQ is poor, but there clearly isn't room for interpretation. It should have read: "all psykers and pilots in the Eldar codex also have access to the daemonology discipline", and that would've been it.

Either way, your interpretation is clearly not RAI or even remotely acceptable, because it would mean I can roll my 4 powers with Eldrad, and then roll some on daemonology, just because I want to, in any number, totally disregarding the "generating powers" rules, which is what you do in your shadowseer interpretation.

Extreame there is still a problem with the second part of the sentence under that interpretation;

"Any model with the Psyker or Psychic Pilot special rule may generate powers from the Deamonology discipline in addition to the others listed in their Army List Entries.


Take note of the second half.

From Happy;Eldrad and Farseers can roll on 4 Disiciplines. Spiritseers can roll on 3, and Warlocks can roll on 2.

Now the permission is given and works in the same way as the others. Does the Spiritseer get ''free'' roll's on all 3 tables in the first place? or can they just roll if they have the ML free? This is giving an addition, which means it works the same way the rest of the Diciplines listed do, is says so in the FAQ in the highlighted part of the sentence.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You're assuming generate means roll randomly. You haven't proven that.

Yes I have. Would you like me to quote the relevant rules again? Either way that argument falls very short as well. The ONLY way for any model in the Eldar codex to generate a Daemonology power is to roll randomly.

Not in this thread you haven't. I just reread all of your posts.
In addition, while that statement is correct, it's irrelevant.
You have permission to generate a power from Demonology in addition to your other disciplines.
Shadow seers have no disciplines, so you have permission to generate from demonology - just like every Psyker.
Now, read the BRB about generating psychic powers. Please tell me how models with a chosen power generate powers.

They don't and can't, case closed as it should have been on page 1.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

wargamer1985 wrote:
1. FAQS are not official and therefor in tournaments have no standing

??? This is wrong. The FAQs are published by GW. What makes you think they are not offical? Also. I cant think of one GT that doesnt use the FAQs. Where are you getting your information?

The FAQ gives the Shadowseer (and any other Psyker or Psychic Pilot in the Eldar Codex) Specific permission to generate powers from Deamonology. This is a direct conflict with the BRB. As I have quoted above, The BRB tells us that the Codex always takes precedence in a direct conflict. The FAQ is an ammendment to the Codex, and thus takes precedence over any conflicting rules in the BRB.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

If what you say is true then how many powers do you generate? You already know one, and thus are breaking the mastery levels rules in order to generate any powers beyond the one you know. So where does it stop... do you generate one power, or do you have to generate 2 because powers is plural? gak why not generate 14 and know every power in both Daemenology trees...

Yes... codex trumps BRB... but specific trumps general. And the shadowseer knowing one specific power and not generating powers because it already knows it's maximum allotment is a far more specific rule than a blanket permission to generate an undefined number of powers.

They number of powers you generate would be dependent on mastery level as outlined in the BRB
The rule is plural only in the sense that it is refering to multiple psykers.

Correct, and per that rule, you only generate more powers if you don't already know powers equal to your mastery level, which since the shadowseer is ML 1 it already has. There for yes, it is allowed to generate powers on the demonology table, but since it already knows its maximum alloted number of powers, that allowance is pointless.

in the case of the shadowseer, it doesn't matter if it has access to all disciplines, it can only know 1 power and it starts out knowing veil of tears so no rolls on any table.

having access =/= having more powers to generate.

that same logic would mean that all psykers would have access to all powers of every discipline they know as they can always generate more powers from what they are allowed access too. Which is not how it works.