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OK, so this is about the Eldar Shadowseer, not the Dark Eldar.

Per the FAQ, Eldar Psykers have access to Daemonolgy.
Per the Codex, Shadowseers have the Veil of Tears Psychic Power, but says nothing about rolling for Psychic Powers (as in 6th edition they did not have permission to roll on any Discipline).
Compared to the Hemlock Wraithfighter, which says "The Hemlock Wraithfighter does not roll for psychic powers."

Now it would appear RAW, the Shadowseer, now has Veil of Tears, plus one roll (and Primaris) off of Sanctic or Daemonology.

Thoughts?

Page 23, second paragraph down has your answer.

Basically if the model has a psychic power listed on his profile he always starts with that power.

Shingen wrote:
Page 23, second paragraph down has your answer.

Basically if the model has a psychic power listed on his profile he always starts with that power.

I'm not arguing the Shadowseer doesn't start with VoT.

Per the Eldar FAQ, "Any model with the Psyker or Psychic Pilot special rule may generate powers from the Daemonology discipline in addition to the others listed in their Army List Entries."

Per the Eldar Army List, Shadowseers do not have any Disciplines listed.

Daemonology is added in addition to this null set.

Leaving us with Shadowseers generate their powers from no disciplines and Daemonology.

True as that is the Eldar Codex clearly states on page 99 that:

"A Shadowseer always has the Veils of Tears Psychic Power"

As he is only ML1 he cant take a second power so I think that settles that. The word always kinda negates the FAQ unless the FAQ is very specific.

Shingen, compare the Shadowseer with the Wraithfighter.

The Shadowseer always knows VoT (and per the FAQ can roll on Daemonology).
The Wraithfighter does not roll for its powers but always knows Terrify (and per the FAQ can roll on Daemonology).

Both say the model knows a power, however, only one actually has a restriction on rolling for powers. In 6th edition it did not matter, as the codex specifically told you what Disciplines you could roll on and Shadowseers did not have a Discipline listed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if you are wondering, this is not HIWPI. I firmly believe the RAI is no power generation, however, the FAQ does give the Wraithfighter permission to roll on Daemonology despite the fact hte codex says it doesn't roll.

Again, it says the Hemlock always knows Terrify and again its ML1 so he cant roll on anything anyway irrespective.

To me its pretty clear but if I can help clear your mind in any way I will do...

Right, the Hemlock knows Terrify, and doesn't roll for powers.

The Shadowseer knows VoT and its entry says nothing about not rolling for powers.

 Happyjew wrote:
Right, the Hemlock knows Terrify, and doesn't roll for powers.

The Shadowseer knows VoT and its entry says nothing about not rolling for powers.

You only roll for powers if you don't have powers specified.

From Generating Psychic Powers, emphasis added.

"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."

If you have listed powers, you know those powers. Otherwise you roll. The Shadowseer has powers listed, so he never has the opportunity to roll.

But the Eldar FAQ would override the more general rules in the BRB.

In the GK FAQ, for example, every single psyker in the codex is listed, with their known powers and/or available trees to roll on. It clearly states who may and may not roll, and who has set powers and who doesn't.
This isn't the case with the Shadowseer.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
But the Eldar FAQ would override the more general rules in the BRB.

There's no conflict. The Shadowseer adds Daemonology to the list of disciplines it can generate powers from, bringing the total disciplines to one. So if it could generate powers by rolling, it could generate from Daemonology, no question. The Shadowseer doesn't have permission to roll powers though, as roliing powers is something you do if you don't have specific powers. So while Daemonology is one of it's disciplines, the Shadowseer will never generate a power from there because it has specific powers.

Chrysis wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
But the Eldar FAQ would override the more general rules in the BRB.

There's no conflict. The Shadowseer adds Daemonology to the list of disciplines it can generate powers from, bringing the total disciplines to one. So if it could generate powers by rolling, it could generate from Daemonology, no question. The Shadowseer doesn't have permission to roll powers though, as roliing powers is something you do if you don't have specific powers. So while Daemonology is one of it's disciplines, the Shadowseer will never generate a power from there because it has specific powers.

Not necessarily.

For example (and I know this is a poor example, but is the only one that comes to mind at the moment), Ezekiel (DA) knows the Mind Worm power, and also rolls for powers.

 Happyjew wrote:

Chrysis wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
But the Eldar FAQ would override the more general rules in the BRB.

There's no conflict. The Shadowseer adds Daemonology to the list of disciplines it can generate powers from, bringing the total disciplines to one. So if it could generate powers by rolling, it could generate from Daemonology, no question. The Shadowseer doesn't have permission to roll powers though, as roliing powers is something you do if you don't have specific powers. So while Daemonology is one of it's disciplines, the Shadowseer will never generate a power from there because it has specific powers.

Not necessarily.

For example (and I know this is a poor example, but is the only one that comes to mind at the moment), Ezekiel (DA) knows the Mind Worm power, and also rolls for powers.

As explained in his rules, overriding the either/or of specific or rolling. There's nothing in the Shadowseer rules to do the same.

It seems a little shaky, but RAW seems to back you, Happyjew. Now, RAI doesn't, and I don't think anyone would ever play/run it that way (which is what I think you said up above). But you are nevertheless, technically correct.

Erm no it doesn't. It clearly says in black and white you can't.

Shingen wrote:
Erm no it doesn't. It clearly says in black and white you can't.

This. The main rulebook says you can't. The codex doesn't say either way. Why would this suddenly mean you can?

Chrysis wrote:

Shingen wrote:
Erm no it doesn't. It clearly says in black and white you can't.

This. The main rulebook says you can't. The codex doesn't say either way. Why would this suddenly mean you can?

Can you give the exact BRB line you're referring to? I assume it's not something like, "By the way, the Shadowseer can't roll on Daemonology." But I don't know what it is.

I already quoted it, but here it is again. I don't have a page number because I'm using the ebook.

From Generating Psychic Powers, emphasis added.

"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."

The rulebook only gives permission to generate powers if you don't have specific powers listed. The Shadowseer has specific powers listed, ergo doesn't have permission to generate powers. So she can add Daemonology to his list of disciplines, but as she never gets the chance to generate powers she will never get to use it. Exceptions exist, such as Ezekial, but they outline in their rules exactly how they work thus overriding the rulebook. The Shadowseer does not outline that it is an exception, either in the codex or the FAQ, so there's no reason to think that it is.

Chrysis wrote:
I already quoted it, but here it is again. I don't have a page number because I'm using the ebook.

From Generating Psychic Powers, emphasis added.

"In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."

The rulebook only gives permission to generate powers if you don't have specific powers listed. The Shadowseer has specific powers listed, ergo doesn't have permission to generate powers. So she can add Daemonology to his list of disciplines, but as she never gets the chance to generate powers she will never get to use it. Exceptions exist, such as Ezekial, but they outline in their rules exactly how they work thus overriding the rulebook. The Shadowseer does not outline that it is an exception, either in the codex or the FAQ, so there's no reason to think that it is.

From the Eldar FAQ
"Any model with the Psyker or Psychic Pilot special rule may generate powers from the Deamonology discipline in addition to the others listed in their Army List Entries."

Not only does the FAQ allow Daemonology to be added to the Shadowseer's list of disciplines, but it also gives the Shadowseer permission to actually generate a power.

Looking further into this it seems the the Hemlock would also get to generate a power from Daemonology. If there is a clear conflict between the two rules, doesn't the FAQ win out? Also, why else would they include the term "Psychic Pilot" in the FAQ if our only model with that rule could not take advantage of it?

No it doesn't, the FAQ is clearly telling you the warlocks, spiritseers, eldrad and farseers have access. The BRB clearly states the rule, I've already posted it, someone else has quoted it.

If you start with a psychic power unless a special rule states you are stuck with it.

Shingen wrote:
No it doesn't, the FAQ is clearly telling you the warlocks, spiritseers, eldrad and farseers have access. The BRB clearly states the rule, I've already posted it, someone else has quoted it.

If you start with a psychic power unless a special rule states you are stuck with it.

If it is clearly only warlocks, farseers, and spiritseers, how would you explain the inclusion of "Psychic Pilot"?

When there is a conflict in the rules, the BRB gives us this. Pg.13
"On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex ot Army List Entry always takes precedence."
FAQ is part of the codex, and it gives us permission to generate Daemonology powers.

Whether they meant to or not, they wrote in that the shadow seer can now create slaanesh daemons.

Wow.

No they didn't. The BRB clearly states that models with set psychic powers can't roll for different powers. Yes technically the shadowseer has access but he can't roll on it due to the BRB restriction.

Right. No one is debating that part of the rule book. What they are debating is that the Eldar faq, which according to extremefreak13's quote takes precedence over the BRB, says they are allowed to roll on daemonology.

From the Eldar FAQ
"Any model with the Psyker or Psychic Pilot special rule may generate powers from the Deamonology discipline in addition to the others listed in their Army List Entries."

If there are no other disciplines that can be generated from in the first place does this apply though?

The 'in addition to the others listed...' is actually 'in addition to the other (disciplines they may generate from) listed in their ...' rather than other powers which some people might be reading it as.

Seems contextually it's giving a new discipline to ones who already have some they can generate from, due to the wording 'addition to the others' the model doesn't have 'other' disciplines to be able to add deamonology to the list of disciplines it knows.Could be bad phrasing though.



Doesn't this also link in with how many powers a unit can cast - I mean, if how many powers you know is not dependent on ML then it must be how many you cast.

 Ignatius wrote:
Right. No one is debating that part of the rule book. What they are debating is that the Eldar faq, which according to extremefreak13's quote takes precedence over the BRB, says they are allowed to roll on daemonology.

IIRC generating is also determining set powers - so no, the FAQ does not give permission to roll.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Right. No one is debating that part of the rule book. What they are debating is that the Eldar faq, which according to extremefreak13's quote takes precedence over the BRB, says they are allowed to roll on daemonology.

IIRC generating is also determining set powers - so no, the FAQ does not give permission to roll.

Now you've confused me.

"Any model with the Psyker or Psychic Pilot special rule may generate powers from the Deamonology discipline in addition to the others listed in their Army List Entries." Eldar FAQ first posted by Extremefreak17

I'm actually curious, how does this faq NOT say that you can generate from daemonology?

 Ignatius wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Right. No one is debating that part of the rule book. What they are debating is that the Eldar faq, which according to extremefreak13's quote takes precedence over the BRB, says they are allowed to roll on daemonology.

IIRC generating is also determining set powers - so no, the FAQ does not give permission to roll.

Now you've confused me.

"Any model with the Psyker or Psychic Pilot special rule may generate powers from the Deamonology discipline in addition to the others listed in their Army List Entries." Eldar FAQ first posted by Extremefreak17

I'm actually curious, how does this faq NOT say that you can generate from daemonology?

Because generation includes having a set power.
The models have a set power pre-generated for them, and no permission to generate additional ones (they're ML1 and know 1 power).
So while they can generate from that tree, their power is generated for them.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Right. No one is debating that part of the rule book. What they are debating is that the Eldar faq, which according to extremefreak13's quote takes precedence over the BRB, says they are allowed to roll on daemonology.

IIRC generating is also determining set powers - so no, the FAQ does not give permission to roll.

Now you've confused me.

"Any model with the Psyker or Psychic Pilot special rule may generate powers from the Deamonology discipline in addition to the others listed in their Army List Entries." Eldar FAQ first posted by Extremefreak17

I'm actually curious, how does this faq NOT say that you can generate from daemonology?

Because generation includes having a set power.
The models have a set power pre-generated for them, and no permission to generate additional ones (they're ML1 and know 1 power).
So while they can generate from that tree, their power is generated for them.

That would be a conflict of rules, as you would never get to generate a power from Daemonology., which the FAQ specifically allows us to do. Generating Veil of Tears is not the same as generating a power from Daemonology, which we have specific permission to do.

EDIT: Also, I cant find anything that says having a set power = generating a power. Do you have a page number for that?

Cite permission to generate an additional power.
Or cite permission to replace Veil.

You have to prove one of the two to move forward with your argument.

rigeld2 wrote:
Cite permission to generate an additional power.
Or cite permission to replace Veil.

You have to prove one of the two to move forward with your argument.

Edited my post. Need a page number from you first.

It doesn't seem to refer to set powers as being generated anywhere. (that I could find)