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Please Define 'Personal use' since the Apple T&C don't provide one.

Does it mean if someone else reads your copy you are guilty of piracy :rolleyes: ?

IF you play a song on your stereo at a party?

The whole concept of 'infringement' is ill defined and at the very core downright stupidity that fails to define what you specifically can do with the media you purchase.

Digital 'rights' are nothing more than stupid, arbitrary and ill defined (non)contracts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Take a look and you can see personal, noncommercial use is not defined, anywhere

https://www.apple.com/legal/internet-services/itunes/id/terms-en.html#SALE

How can you infringe, let alone agree to a license that can not and does not define the very terms it uses?

Personal and non-commercial are well defined already, apple doesn't need to define them again. (Don't make me defend apple again... please)

 Yonan wrote:
Personal and non-commercial are well defined already,

Yes you assert that but you also fail to provide the definition to prove your very assertion .

Seems like you are being ......vague

Please define vague, you didn't include the definition in your post so I'm unsure what you mean.

edit: A dramatised video of a transcript from a legal deposition on the topic of not knowing what a basic definition is.

"When you say photocopy machine... what do you mean?"
*incredulous look*

 Yonan wrote:
Please define vague, you didn't include the definition in your post so I'm unsure what you mean.

edit: A dramatised video of a transcript from a legal deposition on the topic of not knowing what a basic definition is.

"When you say photocopy machine... what do you mean?"
*incredulous look*

vague [veyg] Show IPA
adjective, va·guer, va·guest.
1.
not clearly or explicitly stated or expressed: vague promises.

You admitted that apple did not explicitly state what personal and non-commercial use is, because it is already well defined....

As I said copyright law is vague, let alone terms and conditions which don't even attempt to define the terminology that they use.

When you say explicitly.... ; p

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:
Hey now, a lot of people are throwing around the word "piracy." Piracy implies that there is something illegal going on, so be careful with that word unless you actually go read the Apple TOS.

GW agreed to the Apple TOS in order to sell the product via Apple's ecosystem, so GW has already said it is okay with anything that is allowed under the TOS.

So how about we actually read the TOS.

I'm not going to because I really don't care about this, but I think that if you are going to say someone is violating a law, you'd better not be saying it lightly.

Hilarious how people will accuse GW of all sorts of ludicrous shenanigans (can't remember all this poster's previous accusations, but remember it involved accusations along the lines of eugenics and race hatred) yet condone obvious copyright violations.

I never accused anyone of a crime. I believe what you are referring to are my opinions about the centaur people in Fanticide, which I felt (and still feel) are grossly racially insensitive and offensive, which is a perfectly reasonable opinion that does not in any way rise to the level of accusing someone of a crime.

You go find a post where I accused someone of perpetrating a criminal act and I will stand corrected.

As I said, there's a big, important difference between saying that you feel something is 'wrong' and saying that what someone is doing is a criminal act.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 44Ronin wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
Personal and non-commercial are well defined already,

Yes you assert that but you also fail to provide the definition to prove your very assertion .

Seems like you are being ......vague

So did you, guy. You linked to the TOS, but you didn't quote it. What's the relevant part that you were referencing? How do any of us know that you've actually read the TOS that you provided a link to? If you are going to be antsy about references and definitions, it would be good to be a little cleaner in your own arguments.

Now, to be fair, commercial versus non-commercial usage is largely irrelevant when it comes to copyright infringement. So...

 Yonan wrote:
It shouldn't be too problematic in practice? You can sign into multiple accounts on your ipad so you have your personal account for everything, then spend 20 seconds signing into your shared account to read the books when you want to. When you're done, sign back into your personal account. I find pdfs superior so wouldn't bother with this, but it seems perfectly doable. (Not something I've done, I just think this is doable)

It seems like this might make syncing a problem, but I abhor itunes software and find syncing to cause a lot of trouble so never use it anyway. I prefer direct control.

You can sign into a different Apple ID and even purchase/download a book on that Apple ID while your books from the other Apple ID remain on the iPad. However, anytime you need to back-up the device for any reason it will require you to sync the iPad to one account or the other (and wipe the ones off there that don't belong).

So again, it's a great concept theoretically, but it is totally impractical in the real world if you want to use your expensive device to do other things. Apple has specifically designed their system this way to make it nearly impossible (or at least a major pain) to have purchased media from more than one Apple ID on a single device.


Really, why bother arguing about whether this is immoral, against the law, etc, because frankly it is an idea that is not actually feasible except for a tiny, tiny fraction of people...so its frankly not worth the effort to sit here and argue about it.

 Yonan wrote:
It shouldn't be too problematic in practice? You can sign into multiple accounts on your ipad so you have your personal account for everything, then spend 20 seconds signing into your shared account to read the books when you want to. When you're done, sign back into your personal account. I find pdfs superior so wouldn't bother with this, but it seems perfectly doable. (Not something I've done, I just think this is doable)

It seems like this might make syncing a problem, but I abhor itunes software and find syncing to cause a lot of trouble so never use it anyway. I prefer direct control.

Except you may only re-associate an IPAD/IPHONE with an apple account every 90 days.

http://support.apple.com/kb/ht4627

So you don't mind turning your 500$ ipad into a codex brick for 3 months, knock yourself out to save some money,

I think you misinterpreted that. It reads to me as though you can only authorise a device with a new account once every 90 days, but after that the device is authorised and you can change between the authorised accounts on it at will. Assuming you already own a device that's 90+ days old, you should have no problem adding your shared account to it, which you can then swap to as needed to view the books.
(my interpretation, not my experience)

 yakface wrote:
So again, it's a great concept theoretically, but it is totally impractical in the real world if you want to use your expensive device to do other things. Apple has specifically designed their system this way to make it nearly impossible (or at least a major pain) to have purchased media from more than one Apple ID on a single device.

Really, why bother arguing about whether this is immoral, against the law, etc, because frankly it is an idea that is not actually feasible except for a tiny, tiny fraction of people...so its frankly not worth the effort to sit here and argue about it.

Only if you use the syncing "feature" of it. If you disable auto sync - which I do as I despise it - and manually backup your stuff as necessary (which is minimal if you use non-apple apps that sync data independently), it wouldn't be a problem. This tom fethery is just one more example of why I think apples syncing is horrible. Even with only one apple ID, I've seen it wipe peoples devices by syncing the fresh install of itunes on the PC to the in-use device.

I'm just discussing the practicality because it seemed as though my conception of how it would work differs from others. It's not something I'd do - I much prefer my directories of bookmarked, OCR'd pdfs which I use in Good Reader on my ipad or sumatra on my PC.

 Yonan wrote:

Only if you use the syncing "feature" of it. If you disable auto sync - which I do as I despise it - and manually backup your stuff as necessary (which is minimal if you use non-apple apps that sync data independently), it wouldn't be a problem. This tom fethery is just one more example of why I think apples syncing is horrible. Even with only one apple ID, I've seen it wipe peoples devices by syncing the fresh install of itunes on the PC to the in-use device.

I'm just discussing the practicality because it seemed as though my conception of how it would work differs from others. It's not something I'd do - I much prefer my directories of bookmarked, OCR'd pdfs which I use in Good Reader on my ipad or sumatra on my PC.

Again, it's a lovely concept in theory, but it doesn't work in reality because anytime you need/want to update the iBooks app or backup the device for a major OS update you're going to lose the stuff not associated with your actual Apple ID.

Not to mention that having to switch over to a different App,e ID from the settings app everytime you want to view those books kills a whole lot of the ease of use of having the books digitally in the first place.

If the OP has done this, I'd like him to chime in on the specifics of how laborious or easy the whole process is and exactly how bastardly apple is when using multiple IDs.

 Yonan wrote:
If the OP has done this, I'd like him to chime in on the specifics of how laborious or easy the whole process is and exactly how bastardly apple is when using multiple IDs.

The OP talks about everyone using the same Apple ID the whole time and using gift cards to add money to purchase other things. He has no mention of trying to swap out Aplle IDs because that is not something that will work in the long run.

While sticking with a single Apple ID on everyone's iPads would work, it would be a giant pain in the ass to deal with monetizing the account when anyone wants to purchase other stuff and eventually people will want to buy more devices and be stuck because of the 10 device limit in a quandary where their ipad has all this stuff using one appke ID that they can't put on their iphone because the device limit is maxed out.

So again: This is not a practical, realistic concept over the long term (years). Anyone trying to do this will be painting themselves into a very expensive corner that they will later regret doing.

Might be easier to just put sticky threads that lists "summaries" for the following 3 topics that always end in heated emotional debates..

"Forgeworld: Legal or not?"
"Pirating"
"Chapterhouse is to blame for everything"

To me, the big thing about pirating is you don't need to try to moralize it. Just do it if you want, if you think its immoral then don't do it. In the end, nothing is gonna happen to you either way so do what brings you the most overall benefit. Maybe I'm a horrible immoral person, but I do know for a fact that I don't care.

 yakface wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
It shouldn't be too problematic in practice? You can sign into multiple accounts on your ipad so you have your personal account for everything, then spend 20 seconds signing into your shared account to read the books when you want to. When you're done, sign back into your personal account. I find pdfs superior so wouldn't bother with this, but it seems perfectly doable. (Not something I've done, I just think this is doable)

It seems like this might make syncing a problem, but I abhor itunes software and find syncing to cause a lot of trouble so never use it anyway. I prefer direct control.

You can sign into a different Apple ID and even purchase/download a book on that Apple ID while your books from the other Apple ID remain on the iPad. However, anytime you need to back-up the device for any reason it will require you to sync the iPad to one account or the other (and wipe the ones off there that don't belong).

So again, it's a great concept theoretically, but it is totally impractical in the real world if you want to use your expensive device to do other things. Apple has specifically designed their system this way to make it nearly impossible (or at least a major pain) to have purchased media from more than one Apple ID on a single device.


Really, why bother arguing about whether this is immoral, against the law, etc, because frankly it is an idea that is not actually feasible except for a tiny, tiny fraction of people...so its frankly not worth the effort to sit here and argue about it.

To be fair, and this may not be everyone's experience, but when I upgrade an iPad, I just keep the old one. I've got a first gen that I like because it doesn't have a camera, meaning I can get it into most courtrooms. I've got another older one that my kids use. No data plan, just wifi, but it's perfectly good for watching Daniel Tiger. If I didn't have kids...well, instead of Daniel Tiger it could be filled with group-shared wargaming books.

weeble1000 wrote:

 yakface wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
It shouldn't be too problematic in practice? You can sign into multiple accounts on your ipad so you have your personal account for everything, then spend 20 seconds signing into your shared account to read the books when you want to. When you're done, sign back into your personal account. I find pdfs superior so wouldn't bother with this, but it seems perfectly doable. (Not something I've done, I just think this is doable)

It seems like this might make syncing a problem, but I abhor itunes software and find syncing to cause a lot of trouble so never use it anyway. I prefer direct control.

You can sign into a different Apple ID and even purchase/download a book on that Apple ID while your books from the other Apple ID remain on the iPad. However, anytime you need to back-up the device for any reason it will require you to sync the iPad to one account or the other (and wipe the ones off there that don't belong).

So again, it's a great concept theoretically, but it is totally impractical in the real world if you want to use your expensive device to do other things. Apple has specifically designed their system this way to make it nearly impossible (or at least a major pain) to have purchased media from more than one Apple ID on a single device.


Really, why bother arguing about whether this is immoral, against the law, etc, because frankly it is an idea that is not actually feasible except for a tiny, tiny fraction of people...so its frankly not worth the effort to sit here and argue about it.

To be fair, and this may not be everyone's experience, but when I upgrade an iPad, I just keep the old one. I've got a first gen that I like because it doesn't have a camera, meaning I can get it into most courtrooms. I've got another older one that my kids use. No data plan, just wifi, but it's perfectly good for watching Daniel Tiger. If I didn't have kids...well, instead of Daniel Tiger it could be filled with group-shared wargaming books.

But your not an iAddict... you can quit any time you like...
Any time you like...

The Auld Grump, a man that owns four Kobos and a Kindle....

One, this isn't copyright infringement, so we can stop using that term. Getting a copy of the rules and reproducing them without consent is copyright infringement and by extension, stealing. Piracy has nothing to do with this, so again, let's use our words.

Overall I think this idea would be pretty cool from a business standpoint (see: previous poster who mentioned a club getting one ID and multiple iPads for easy reference.). It's sort of like getting an enterprise license for software, which groups of folks use all the time. How is it the OP's fault if Apple and GW didn't bother to take this into consideration?

Hint: It isn't.

All in all, it's not something I'm going to do but hey if you've got 9 other people who have Apple products that don't already have an iTunes account, by all means, exploit-loophole away.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

Spoiler:

weeble1000 wrote:

 yakface wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
It shouldn't be too problematic in practice? You can sign into multiple accounts on your ipad so you have your personal account for everything, then spend 20 seconds signing into your shared account to read the books when you want to. When you're done, sign back into your personal account. I find pdfs superior so wouldn't bother with this, but it seems perfectly doable. (Not something I've done, I just think this is doable)

It seems like this might make syncing a problem, but I abhor itunes software and find syncing to cause a lot of trouble so never use it anyway. I prefer direct control.

You can sign into a different Apple ID and even purchase/download a book on that Apple ID while your books from the other Apple ID remain on the iPad. However, anytime you need to back-up the device for any reason it will require you to sync the iPad to one account or the other (and wipe the ones off there that don't belong).

So again, it's a great concept theoretically, but it is totally impractical in the real world if you want to use your expensive device to do other things. Apple has specifically designed their system this way to make it nearly impossible (or at least a major pain) to have purchased media from more than one Apple ID on a single device.


Really, why bother arguing about whether this is immoral, against the law, etc, because frankly it is an idea that is not actually feasible except for a tiny, tiny fraction of people...so its frankly not worth the effort to sit here and argue about it.

To be fair, and this may not be everyone's experience, but when I upgrade an iPad, I just keep the old one. I've got a first gen that I like because it doesn't have a camera, meaning I can get it into most courtrooms. I've got another older one that my kids use. No data plan, just wifi, but it's perfectly good for watching Daniel Tiger. If I didn't have kids...well, instead of Daniel Tiger it could be filled with group-shared wargaming books.

But your not an iAddict... you can quit any time you like...
Any time you like...

The Auld Grump, a man that owns four Kobos and a Kindle....

Big P wrote:

Stuff like this is why our books wont be released on PDF or as an ebook. So this sort of behaviour has an effect not only on GW but smaller publishers who cant run the risk of losing sales to file sharing.

I find this interesting. What exactly are your books?

Big P writes the Battle Group series of WW2 rules with Warwick Kinrade (Ironfist Publishing).

They're very good books.

Not releasing a digital copy doesn't do anything to limit piracy, it just limits your market. It only takes one person to scan it which is a trivial process. I had access to high volume auto-feed scanners at my last workplace with OCR software already setup which came in handy for format shifting (not distributing) my stuff.

EDIT: Don't care enough.

You don't really have to share the account actually. One way to download the book on a friends device is to log into your Apple ID on your friends device.

Use your ID and PW and in the App Store it should show that the purchase is in the cloud, DL the book on the device.

Then log off and have your friend log on with his own ID.

Only issue with this is, if the codex needs to be updated it's going to ask for your PW and ID

The newer iDevices are way, way friendlier to multiple ID users than previous generations.

The OPs plan involves a shared ID with no credit card info attached. And you simply log in, get your content and log out.

As for Apple ToS, they don't ever say you can't share your Apple ID. They just say you shouldn't. But they get that with families and businesses, there may be customers who want to share them.

If anyone wants to learn more about sharing Apple IDs, tons of info is only a google search away. Managing multiple Apple IDs is a thing because there are people who need to use one at work and one at home. This isn't anything new and Apple has increased support for it.

It's legit. And GW agreed to it when they agreed to Apple's terms.

Anyone making claims of "piracy" was demonstrating their ignorance big time. As is the citing of the Apple IDs not being "transferable" as transferring accounts is a permanent change of ownership, not having multiple people access it.