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Roadkill Zombie wrote:


No, the range of the weapon is correct. Phil Kelly, the writer of the codex, wanted the Wave Serpent in 40k to mimic the one in the game Epic Space Marine. In that game the Wave Serpent shield could be fired a very long distance. Believe it or not, the 40k version is toned WAY down from the Epic version.

In this case, the game-design philosophy behind the wave serpent baffles me. What is the logic behind a transport, in an army with short-range infantry, with an infantry-suppression weapon that can fire all the way across the board? It makes no sense to design it in this way as far as I can see. It's akin to giving genestealers venom cannons.

The tactic is to supress the enemy from long range first so you can keep one part of the enemy from being able to do much while your forces concentrate on killing other portions of the enemy that now will not have the full support of their comerades in arms.

Then, after the portion of the enemy the eldar were destroying is finally destroyed, the Wave Serpents get closer and the entire army of the eldar start to destroy the now half strength enemy that previously they were only supressing. They bring in the reserves which were hiding in serpents to replace the losses from the first part of the battle.

Those long range weapons are still good for supressing at close range so now they set up the enemy for a really powerful death blow.

Keep in mind that the shield gun is also light to medium armour suppression as well. The only thing it can't touch is AV 14.

Now, in the Epic version there was an actual wave template that you would put in front of the serpent and slide it out to the maximum distance of the weapon. The template would quite literally push around the enemy models, splitting squads up, overturning tanks, pinning troops in place. Admittedly it didn't kill anything but it sure could wreck a battle line.
If anyone thinks Wave Serpents are powerful now, be glad they didn't make them like the origionals in Epic.

I hope that makes sense.

Ok.. thread summary:

Morgoth: WS is visibly worse
Others: but it has Objective Secured

Well then, I hope Objective Secured remains such a great benefit that it continues to outweigh the negatives.

Thanks for participating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

Did I just read that correctly? Did you just say that because of your RTS experience that people who play 40k can't compete with your level of tacticle skill because the RTS plays faster?

This one statement makes it impossible for me to take anything you say seriously anymore. I joined the United States Navy and went to Operations Specialist school. I graduated in the top five of the class. I then went on to train in ship, submarine, and aircraft tactics with some of the worlds best Admirals. It was an environment where everything changed constantly at a lightning fast pace. Any mistakes could cost hundreds if not thousands of lives.

Yet after all of that, even though some of those tactics can be used with wave serpents, I would never try to claim that my top of the world training in tactics would somehow make me a better tactician than anyone that plays 40k. I think it is extremely arrogant of you to somehow think you are a better tactician simply because you play an RTS competitively.

You know... I did not attack your belief that your involvement with the US Navy is more relevant than RTS experience, I don't see why you need to put your beliefs above other people's.

morgoth wrote:
Ok.. thread summary:

Morgoth: WS is visibly worse
Others: but it has Objective Secured

Well then, I hope Objective Secured remains such a great benefit that it continues to outweigh the negatives.

Thanks for participating.

Remove the bias please.

Morgoth: WS is now terrible, lost 66% of firepower. Jink is a Nerf.

Others: WS is conditionally worse and conditionally better due to Jink resulting in a minor Damage Output Nerf. Gained Objective Secured with is a huge benefit. Vehicle Damage Table changes also increased Durability.

Conclusion: Wave Serpent is better as the "Jink Nerf" can easily be mitigated by smart play and Objective Secured is paramount in 7th Edition.

 Zagman wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Ok.. thread summary:

Morgoth: WS is visibly worse
Others: but it has Objective Secured

Well then, I hope Objective Secured remains such a great benefit that it continues to outweigh the negatives.

Thanks for participating.

Remove the bias please.

Morgoth: WS is now terrible, lost 66% of firepower. Jink is a Nerf.

Others: WS is conditionally worse and conditionally better due to Jink resulting in a minor Damage Output Nerf. Gained Objective Secured with is a huge benefit. Vehicle Damage Table changes also increased Durability.

Conclusion: Wave Serpent is better as the "Jink Nerf" can easily be mitigated by smart play and Objective Secured is paramount in 7th Edition.

There are more benfits offensivly. The only time jink "negating offense" even comes into it is situational:: its only "worse" if there is ZERO cover available, and the hit didn't already ignorecover (bale flamer? Rear armour) and you couldn't /wouldn't shoot fliers.. (imho WS are among best anti air eldar have) and you can't benefit from flat out.. there is a lot of ifs in there

morgoth wrote:
Ok.. thread summary:

Morgoth: WS is visibly worse
Others: but it has Objective Secured

Well then, I hope Objective Secured remains such a great benefit that it continues to outweigh the negatives.

Thanks for participating.

I think you are failing to understand a few very key things here.

1. Every Wave Serpent on the table will not be Jinking every single turn. With intervening models (other Wave Serpents) you are stilling getting a 4+ save with Holofields. Behind Ruins, its a 3+. These are both without even needing to jink. Intervening models and cover from ruins are probably the two easiest cover saves to gain in the entire game. While a Single Serpent Jinking may lose 66% of its Firepower, I cant think of a single reason why I would ever need to Jink with more than 2 of them.

2. If the enemy has any significant flyer on the table, the Serpents are probably shooting at it anyway. Wave serpents provide the most cost effective AA for most competative Eldar lists. If I am going to shoot at a flyer anyway, Jink doesnt even matter.

3. While Objective Secured is gained by all designated transports now, Its value is far greater when apllied to a Wave Serpent. Being more durable and Faster than for its cost than any other transport in the game means that the effects of OS are icredible on a Wave Serpent. Having a 30" contest or capture range on something that durable us unmatched for 145 points.

Sure they did get a bit less shooty. However, If I run 6 serpents, you would be lucky to cut even 20% of their combined firepower.

 extremefreak17 wrote:


I think you are failing to understand a few very key things here.

1. Every Wave Serpent on the table will not be Jinking every single turn. With intervening models (other Wave Serpents) you are stilling getting a 4+ save with Holofields. Behind Ruins, its a 3+. These are both without even needing to jink. Intervening models and cover from ruins are probably the two easiest cover saves to gain in the entire game. While a Single Serpent Jinking may lose 66% of its Firepower, I cant think of a single reason why I would ever need to Jink with more than 2 of them.

2. If the enemy has any significant flyer on the table, the Serpents are probably shooting at it anyway. Wave serpents provide the most cost effective AA for most competative Eldar lists. If I am going to shoot at a flyer anyway, Jink doesnt even matter.

3. While Objective Secured is gained by all designated transports now, Its value is far greater when apllied to a Wave Serpent. Being more durable and Faster than for its cost than any other transport in the game means that the effects of OS are icredible on a Wave Serpent. Having a 30" contest or capture range on something that durable us unmatched for 145 points.

Sure they did get a bit less shooty. However, If I run 6 serpents, you would be lucky to cut even 20% of their combined firepower.

First, I would like to say that the post you quoted recognizes your opinion as exactly what it is.

1. Not it will not, it's not a 66% straight damage output nerf with nothing to balance it or nobody would even argue. I play 8 Wave Serpents and 3 Fire Prisms, there is enough cover for about 3 or 4. And I have other units that need cover. Jink *can* be a good deal too. You need to think again.

2. No they are not shooting at it anyway, 340 - 510 points of Heldrakes is dangerous, but spending all your firepower on them is rarely the best option. They are not most cost effective they have multiple uses and that's why they're good. I do shoot at flyers when I'm jinked. or less important targets, thereby limiting the impact of that Jink change.

3. You overestimate that by a long shot. if the enemy is properly deployed around the objective, you can only threaten it within 12" using Tank Shock, there is no Tank Shock during flat out. You also do not realize that bringing that WS in that wrong spot against even tactical marines holding that spot means it's dead on the next turn. Not a sound tactical decision to me.


I run more than 6 Serpents, it can be tricky to cut even 20% of their firepower, and I don't believe that the Jink nerf amounts to even 20% damage output nerf in realistic cases.
However, in EvE Online, people train a skill for 45 days to get a 2% bonus.
2% is a competitive edge that makes a difference.

I have not done all the simulations required to understand the real effect of the Jink nerf, there are very important factors like all the cases where you cannot Jink in 7th, some of which are extremely relevant to a Mech list that barely has enough space on the board and cannot prevent double to triple hits on large blasts.

If I had to give an estimate right now, I would say the WS lost between 5 and 10 percent efficiency because of that change, combining mobility limitations, resilience increases and decreases, etc.

To me, that's a relevant difference.

It may be that the WS is more relevant than before because of the OS change, it's still weaker and I don't think OS is going to make up those 5 to 10% for players like me.

morgoth wrote:


First, I would like to say that the post you quoted recognizes your opinion as exactly what it is.

1. Not it will not, it's not a 66% straight damage output nerf with nothing to balance it or nobody would even argue. I play 8 Wave Serpents and 3 Fire Prisms, there is enough cover for about 3 or 4. And I have other units that need cover. Jink *can* be a good deal too. You need to think again.

2. No they are not shooting at it anyway, 340 - 510 points of Heldrakes is dangerous, but spending all your firepower on them is rarely the best option. They are not most cost effective they have multiple uses and that's why they're good. I do shoot at flyers when I'm jinked. or less important targets, thereby limiting the impact of that Jink change.

3. You overestimate that by a long shot. if the enemy is properly deployed around the objective, you can only threaten it within 12" using Tank Shock, there is no Tank Shock during flat out. You also do not realize that bringing that WS in that wrong spot against even tactical marines holding that spot means it's dead on the next turn. Not a sound tactical decision to me.


I run more than 6 Serpents, it can be tricky to cut even 20% of their firepower, and I don't believe that the Jink nerf amounts to even 20% damage output nerf in realistic cases.
However, in EvE Online, people train a skill for 45 days to get a 2% bonus.
2% is a competitive edge that makes a difference.

I have not done all the simulations required to understand the real effect of the Jink nerf, there are very important factors like all the cases where you cannot Jink in 7th, some of which are extremely relevant to a Mech list that barely has enough space on the board and cannot prevent double to triple hits on large blasts.

If I had to give an estimate right now, I would say the WS lost between 5 and 10 percent efficiency because of that change, combining mobility limitations, resilience increases and decreases, etc.

To me, that's a relevant difference.

It may be that the WS is more relevant than before because of the OS change, it's still weaker and I don't think OS is going to make up those 5 to 10% for players like me.

Have you ever considered, using your playstyle is not an objective assessment? 6+ Serpents and 3 Fire Prisms is not a balanced list. Using Serpents as pure Gun boats will receive a minor loss of Damage output, you estimate realistically 20%. How many opponents are making more than one or two jink every turn.

Only enough cover or 3 or 4? You realize that your Skimmers can grant cover to your other Skimmers. Its entirely possible for all 9+ Skimmers to have cover. Also, even using only cover, 3-4 is quite light for normal terrain density.

Eve Online, completely irrelevant example. Entirely different style of game and gameplay.


What you have done is abandon statistics and logic, and inserted opinion without valid evidence and in reference to your playstye only. For example, saying you can't get to an objective because an opponent is properly deployed around it? That is highly unlikely, and very few armies could pull that off on multiple objectives and none could withstand Wave Serpent damage output. Now you are conceding that OS increases the relevance of the Wave Serpent? But, also that it is less relevant? Which is it.

The fact of the matter is that it is less relevant to your playstyle, and more relevant to 7th edition games as a whole. That make the Wave Serpent better in 7th Edition, not worse playing 7th Edition with a 6th Edition playstyle.[i]

Morgoth, how many people have to shoot holes in your logic before you are willing to admit that you are just flat out wrong?

Yes. OS is really that big of a deal. And yes, its effect is even greater when apllied to a Wave Serpent. This has been pretty well demonstrated by a significant amount of high level players; go check out some battle reports.

morgoth wrote:
However, in EvE Online, people train a skill for 45 days to get a 2% bonus.

Wrong forum lad; we are here to talk about 40k.

morgoth wrote:
I play 8 Wave Serpents and 3 Fire Prisms, there is enough cover for about 3 or 4. And I have other units that need cover.

you can't find room for 11 vehicles to hide behind cover. boo hoo, come talk to me when you've played an ork trukk-rush at 2.5k. that's 18 trukks of boys, all wanting to survive turn 1. it's hard enough just getting them to fit in a line across the field.

you clearly have a very one-dimensional playstyle. you've claimed that you are a good tactician but see things in an excessively black & white way. for example, you're stating that objective secured is useless because the opponent might have a unit on that objective you want that can kill your waveserpent. the solution is simple:
Don't go for that objective then!

you seem to think that the best way to win a game is by tabling your opponent. This is flat out wrong. you are a caveman who believes that the solution to any problem is to hit it until it stops moving. your apparently one-dimensional playstyle can be used against you so easily. if you want to kill me off, I'll hide where you have to come closer to see me. multiple small units greb objectives, and a few other units work on not dying. this has won me games. I have played a lot of games against people who think killing each other is the main objective, and I've won most of those games.

so please, retitle this topic as "I don't know how to use waveserpents effectively any more" and people can give you advice to ignore instead of facts to ignore.

Wow, this is really in debate ?

*votes* Better in 7th

As far as enough cover is concerned, provided the enemy doesn't have lots of high-S/D Large+ templates, if you can put one in cover from midfield terrain, you can put two behind it. And 3 behind them. And, if you're really desperate, put one in plain sight on the deployment line. And two behind it...

The Serpent is only nerfed if you're using the Eldar codex to play a Tau Castle force. The Serpent has allowed a lot of players to use the Tau combat doctrine with Eldar models. And somehow be absurdly mobile too. This rediculousness is, IMO, the greatest Eldar weakness (but won't translate into losses).

If you're only concerned with blowing the opponent off the table with massed firepower, you're not playing the same game I am, whether competitive or friendly.

Tau do, but that's one of their two scticks (and the other one - the ambushy doctrine - didn't translate to the tabletop for them in 6th). Read up on Eldar, and they're a lot more complex than that. Fire prisms and Scorpions (the vehicle) have their place, but role isn't intended to stand alone.

When using the Serpent as something other than a low-S Fire Prism, the OS buff and damage table chage are huge, and the jink itself is more buff than nerf. But its so easy and powerful to use it as a gunboat instead, where the jink change is a minor nerf. If you want that kind of heavy firepower saturation as your doctrine, take a second look at Tau. Because, hopefully, the Serpent will be fixed for real, some day, and that'll be a rough awakening.

Side note - one thing you mentioned that does seem accurate is that the Serpent can't just go anywhere, because if it moves onto an objective within charge range of anything s4+, it dies next turn. He mobility and OS are powerful, but it still has it's (admittedly too high) limits.

Serpents are still brokenly OP. Remember their limits, though. Most of the time, with balanced lists, the Serpent should be hemmed in by the enemy most of the game. If I can run down horses in a barn, Tac Marines can run down Serpents.

My brother plays eldar for some time now (several years). He is so happy with the new rules with wave serpents he claims its now the best vehicle in the game.

Why? It has OS combined with unmatched speed AND durability (3+ jink save in the open with holo, almost being immune to penetration hits thx to shields) AND can also serve as a tank with great firepower if needed AND its a great durable transport if you need one AND its spamable because its a dedicated transport. All this in one efficient package for a low price...

This vehicle has been plain broken in 6th. Its even better now...

morgoth wrote:


I run more than 6 Serpents...

Wait you run more than 6 serpents? that's your problem then! you can't make an entire army out of nothing but copy and pastes of the same unit and expect it to do everything your army needs to do (unless your Imperial Knights maybe). At least not in 7th edition.

Wave serpents got better overall, they are fantastic for securing safe objectives as has previously mentioned and they are super hard to kill but in 7th you need to come forwards into the enemies assault range in order to grab objectives that are further away. Obviously a wave serpent would be bad at that role because it will be assaulted and slaughtered. That has nothing to do with the changes to the unit. Most people have adapted to this change in dynamic by fielding fast moving expendable units or tough units that can fight up close and either deep strike or otherwise locate themselves to dangerous objective spots.

Instead of just trying to table your opponent with your wave serpents, why don't you try doing what everyone else is doing in 7th and adjusting their armies?

If there is enough ruins to hide 2 wave serpents behind ruins in good tactical positions and you have 2 wave serpents then there are zero nerfs to your serpent and only buffs. But if you have 7 then obviously the ones in the open are going to loose efficiency.

So maybe you want to ask the question "Does maelstorm of war missions make wave serpent spam armies weaker?" - to which I think most people would say yes.

I have bought two wave serpents. I think that will be enough. I look forward to learning more about how to play them by reading good players explaining it to the people who bought six (and three fire prisms).

My necron army was all flyers and wraiths. One of the cool things about eldar/dark-eldar and 7th is being able to bring a lot of different units that all got better in 7th and have them all potentially do different, fun stuff on the board.

I reckon playing maelstrom missions wave serpents are more fun to play than they used to be.