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Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






State of Jefferson

LordDavenport wrote:
 doktor_g wrote:
Why not put a new point cost on everything? Start fresh. F GW.

Use current rules but all USRs all stats all armor values all everything has a point value. Viola. Balance. Sky Hammer is appropriately point valued.... no more LoW wraithknight costing less than a stompa.


Because after 7 editions, it is shown GW can kinda balance the game. Most of the outliers are obvious and nerfable.

As to you second post: Go read how I broke the custom vehicle deign rules over my knee... repeatedly. Now imagine that with entire codexes.
It would be like some of the worst freeform rp games... "well my 2++ rerollable eldar only have T1, S1, WS 1, and Ld2(they have fearless), so are balanced at 10 points per model. 15 points per model after I give them shreding rending S1 torrent flamers. They have an alt fire of a lance S 10 lascannon, though AP- so Totally Fine."

Codexes are really useful, and keep the game sane.


Im not talking build your own model/unit. Points are assigned then applied across the board... blanket rules to recost current units. Not customizable units. So your craftworld wraithknight may cost 900 pts now and the stompa is 500. An ork boy is 10pts and a necron warrior is 35. If points are equilibrated based on the special rules, stat line, battle field role, armor val, whether its a character, IC, tank, fast, OT'd, skimmer, FMC, bike, beast, relentless, psycher whatever. Everything. EVERYTHING is recosted algorhithmically. So maybe games are more commonly 25,000 points instead of 1850, so relative values can be accounted for My 25,000 point list could consist of the classic farsight bomb vs your craft world scatter spam. Dont you think this would (if done properly and even handedly) necessarily provide balance?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/19 02:25:45


 
   
Made in si
Steady Stonecleaver







What you're describing is probably more difficult than the math they do at CERN.

To figure out how much some special rule is worth in all possible circumstances and contexts, you would need a great innate understanding of the game. And that that point, you might as well just cost all the units by heart and not bother with impossibly long formulae.

Posters on ignore list: 33

40k Potica Edition - 40k patch with reactions, suppression and all that good stuff. Feedback thread here.

Gangs of Nu Ork - Necromunda / Gorkamorka expansion supporting all faction. Feedback thread here
   
Made in us
Drone without a Controller




 doktor_g wrote:


Im not talking build your own model/unit. Points are assigned then applied across the board... blanket rules to recost current units. Not customizable units. So your craftworld wraithknight may cost 900 pts now and the stompa is 500. An ork boy is 10pts and a necron warrior is 35. If points are equilibrated based on the special rules, stat line, battle field role, armor val, whether its a character, IC, tank, fast, OT'd, skimmer, FMC, bike, beast, relentless, psycher whatever. Everything. EVERYTHING is recosted algorhithmically. So maybe games are more commonly 25,000 points instead of 1850, so relative values can be accounted for My 25,000 point list could consist of the classic farsight bomb vs your craft world scatter spam. Dont you think this would (if done properly and even handedly) necessarily provide balance?


I once suggested that to properly balance 3.5, you just needed to run every combination of a party of four through a standardized gauntlet. You would then have a fair base line, and could note which class was more effective. This would work. On the other hand, the amount of work it would take is so far beyond worth it, it is hard to calculate. Your suggestion is on a similar level. It would work. If you want to, do that. I don't want to wait a decade, so I play potica.


Now about those chaos terminators?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/20 04:45:07


 
   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

This is an alternate 40k build that I've been playtesting on and off for the past few months. It's very grognard in the sense that it removes a lot of nonsense introduced in the last few editions (random charge range, casualties from the front, unbound, lords of war) while keeping the good (warlord traits, psychic disciplines) and bringing back mechanics that worked well (victory points, area terrain). It's also progressive in that it streamlines some clunky mechanics (psychic phase), adds a modern suppression system (I hear they are all the rage these days) and expands Overwatch into a whole array of reactions that should keep the non-active player from walking off to watch other games while it's not his turn.



Thanks for this - interesting and brave attempt.

Personally I completely disagree that random Warlord Traits and godawful "magic" phase where in any way "good" - the 6th ed concept worked fine, a few powers were busted but that's the same in 7th.

I'll read through the rest but this did initially put me right off.

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in si
Steady Stonecleaver







LordDavenport wrote:
Now about those chaos terminators?


I'll put "move to Troops" back in for Black Legion Terminators. I'm still thinking about how to make them really worthwhile. Is it just about a points drop or do they need something cool and unique? I was toying with the idea of making them immune to WS/BS reductions. I'd really rather not make them into suicide squads, it bothers the fluff bunny in me.

I wanted to ask you, do you feel Potica would be fairer if reaction tests weren't a stat test but just a straight up 4+ (or whatever) roll for everyone? Suppression could still penalize this, but you wouldn't have the extreme swing in ability between 2+ Eldar and 5+ Orks/Necrons/Tau.

Posters on ignore list: 33

40k Potica Edition - 40k patch with reactions, suppression and all that good stuff. Feedback thread here.

Gangs of Nu Ork - Necromunda / Gorkamorka expansion supporting all faction. Feedback thread here
   
Made in us
Drone without a Controller




Other random suprising things, why did you strip the purpose out of talisman of burning blood? Fleet actually let world eaters reach charge range before turn 3 if the enemy wasn't also trying to engage in assault.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
LordDavenport wrote:
Now about those chaos terminators?


I'll put "move to Troops" back in for Black Legion Terminators. I'm still thinking about how to make them really worthwhile. Is it just about a points drop or do they need something cool and unique? I was toying with the idea of making them immune to WS/BS reductions. I'd really rather not make them into suicide squads, it bothers the fluff bunny in me.


The issue is that the hard counters to terminators are really harsh, and common. This is exacerbated in the modern 40k meta because of all the super heavies, everyone is bringing lots of antitank... which is also good anti terminator. There aren't super heavies in potica, so the amount of required anti tank is lower, which pushes us back towards the older days of gambling. If you take terminators, and your oponent doesn't take tons of AP2, then they are actually worth there point cost. If they do, they can't really do much.

This is were the three man squads are good for. Less point investment means you can gamble without it being the deciding factor in the game. Also if chaos marines could get storm shields or something similar it would make them a lot more survivable.

the other issue is the game has a lot of AP1-2 S8-10, so suggestions like giving them multiple wounds or FnP mostly are just a point sink. Higher toughness helps against small arms, but they already ignore most small arms fire, and you need to get to T7 for meltas to care. T6 means no doubling out so you can add wounds... but then we are talking better obliterators.

That is the thing, terminators are competing with obliterators for list space. obliterators always have the right gun, and 2 wounds so your opponent has to put real dakka into them to kill a one man unit. Obliterators are cheaper then two terminators with heavy weapons ductapped together, and better because they can have whatever dakka and choppa they want.

So we need a reason to take a terminator squad over just an obliterator cult.
Why do you take the obliterator:
Smal DS footprint
Utility of a golf bag of weapons means they can threaten any enemy after they deep strike
one model, so easy to hide in cover
Both a good shooty and choppy squad

compared to that, the terminators have a larger foot print currently, static arms, multiple models, and
generally has to specialize their role. And costs an order of magnitude to buy any of the marks of chaos.

How do we differentiate the two? The ability to take storm shields+ weapon would help, as that would make them actually resistant to a lot more fire. Especially if you only take a few and have them work as tanks for the squad. Also, terminators are also probably the most veteran members of the warband. Maybe some perks they can buy to make them better, like scatter less deepstrike, or move through cover. Maybe even some stat line buffs for a cost. Maybe offer a special terminator only further upgrade for each of the non alined legions. Like Super Night Lords force an enemy they have LOS to to take a pinning test each of their turns after movement, or Super Iron Warriors getting FnP.

above all, three man squads. This is the right size for terminators besides death stars. More and you are spending ~200 points on slow units that might not get any were with a minimum squad.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

I wanted to ask you, do you feel Potica would be fairer if reaction tests weren't a stat test but just a straight up 4+ (or whatever) roll for everyone? Suppression could still penalize this, but you wouldn't have the extreme swing in ability between 2+ Eldar and 5+ Orks/Necrons/Tau.


Tying reactions to initiative made flavor sense, but due to the stat not being tied to that in the regular game means it is not accounted for in the costing. A flat check makes it much more balanced, and means you don't have to recost everything.
Tl;DR do it.
   
Made in us
Drone without a Controller




So, I have messed around, staring at the WS table. Now I know what has always bugged me.
The WS system is tilled to the aggressive side pretty heavily. It is super hard to gain any protection from a high weapon skill, but you only need to be 1 WS higher to hit more often. On the other hand, it is almost impossible to get your WS high enough to make a difference fighting anything but Tau.

What do you think of an edited function?
x=defenders weapon skill, y=attackers weapon skill.
f(x,y)={(5+), if (y+1) is less then x |(4+), if y is less then or equal to x is less then or equal to (y+1) | (3+), if x less then y}
(only way to make the function not get messed up.)
gives the table
| H | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 |10|
| 1 |4+|4+|5+|5+|5+|5+|5+|5+|5+|5+|
| 2 |3+|4+|4+|5+|5+|5+|5+|5+|5+|5+|
| 3 |3+|3+|4+|4+|5+|5+|5+|5+|5+|5+|
| 4 |3+|3+|3+|4+|4+|5+|5+|5+|5+|5+|
| 5 |3+|3+|3+|3+|4+|4+|5+|5+|5+|5+|
| 6 |3+|3+|3+|3+|3+|4+|4+|5+|5+|5+|
| 7 |3+|3+|3+|3+|3+|3+|4+|4+|5+|5+|
| 8 |3+|3+|3+|3+|3+|3+|3+|4+|4+|5+|
| 9 |3+|3+|3+|3+|3+|3+|3+|3+|4+|4+|
|10|3+|3+|3+|3+|3+|3+|3+|3+|3+|4+|

Idea is to make the second point of WS over an opponent have a point. The edit still stops sky high WS values making CC dull, but makes it possible to gain defense with WS.

In other news, I hate the auto editing of this forum. Like, it took ~10min to get this stuff to post right.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/17 08:11:45


 
   
Made in si
Steady Stonecleaver







Looks good at first glance. I'll have to see what it means in the broader context of Potica, where it's really quite easy to lower enemy WS.

Posters on ignore list: 33

40k Potica Edition - 40k patch with reactions, suppression and all that good stuff. Feedback thread here.

Gangs of Nu Ork - Necromunda / Gorkamorka expansion supporting all faction. Feedback thread here
   
Made in us
Drone without a Controller




Also, really specific corner case, but seems to be the main reason to take mark of chaos ascendent...
So, it lets you attach a BL IC to a non BL unit. You can declare attachments pre-combat.
Does the unit attached gain the chosen reserve rolls rule of BL? Like, you don't roll for deployment of units and attached ICs separately, so I don't know why not...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/20 01:12:21


 
   
Made in si
Steady Stonecleaver







Hm, I would be inclined to say yes. Is there a particular non-BL unit that would benefit much more from this than BL units?

Posters on ignore list: 33

40k Potica Edition - 40k patch with reactions, suppression and all that good stuff. Feedback thread here.

Gangs of Nu Ork - Necromunda / Gorkamorka expansion supporting all faction. Feedback thread here
   
Made in us
Drone without a Controller




oh it means you can effectively make BL Obliterators... or bring a big squad of rubric terminators...
Mostly I have always ignored the MoCA because it was expensive and meant spending tons of points to get the full benefit.
Now I have been messing around with it... and wow that is silly.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




lord_blackfang- seriously good endeavor you have going on man! Really shows just how little effort GW has put into some of their products by comparison.

I like most of the changes I've seen including the nerf to jink and balancing of eldar in general. I do think bikes are still a little too strong. In general relentless jinking shouldn't be available in the troops slot IMO. Also I really like the armour system for vehicles although it does seem like explodes is still too common an occurance but this is just at first read through. Thoughts on these? Also I agree that reactions should be a standard 4+ rather than initiative based.

I haven't played any games with your rules yet btw since my favorite army is dark eldar and I'm working on convincing one of my local ork or cron players to take a test run with me.

Speaking of dark eldar, and well blood angels too since both are pretty bad.. anything in the works for more than just an errata? I would love to see what you come up with and my brother is a die hard BA player. With the latest book his army died hard..

Anyway keep it up I'll try to get some better input if/when I actually try the rules out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/20 23:47:31


 
   
 
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