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I honestly have had no more problems than i ever did facing down newer armies. Theres a good bit of eldar in my area, long with strong amounts of necrons, AM, and orks. Granted, there are a lot of space wolf players too, but still. Ive spent the better part of 6th edition beating up on armies that the internet says should crush me.
Im just gonna bow out of this thread. Theres really no convincing any of you. The best analogy for this army i can make is to 5th edition eldar. You had to be smart and play the army very well, and you could beat any opponent with it. We have the tools to win.
th3maninblak wrote: I honestly have had no more problems than i ever did facing down newer armies. Theres a good bit of eldar in my area, long with strong amounts of necrons, AM, and orks. Granted, there are a lot of space wolf players too, but still. Ive spent the better part of 6th edition beating up on armies that the internet says should crush me.
Im just gonna bow out of this thread. Theres really no convincing any of you. The best analogy for this army i can make is to 5th edition eldar. You had to be smart and play the army very well, and you could beat any opponent with it. We have the tools to win.
Either you are exceptionally lucky or your opponents were not playing the best of lists. BA struggle massively against any list with serpents, which is most eldar; wraithspam, flying bakery, royal disco inferno, av13 spam with silver tide, any optimal necron list really - we just don't have the tools to deal with it; AM - blob lists holds up then grinds down squads, a proper gunline list shoots us off the park before we get a sniff at the opponents deployment zone, LR wall blasts marines in every direction, air lists - no point in even beginning; orks - until the new dex the only thing that scared me was ork biker nobz, but now the new dex has dropped, there is FAR more which scares me!; SW, longfangs, tw cavalry, rune priests, hell - even their version of tactical squads give them an edge over us.
I have played BA since 2nd and have a huge collection, I have owned and played Orks (2nd/3rd), Tyranids (2nd/3rd), Eldar (3rd/4th) in my time. I currently own a CSM army (4th/6th/7th) and a Necron army (6th/7th). The only edition I missed was 5th. I have won, drawn and lost with all of these armies, usually with a far greater win record. BA in 6th and 7th are by far the hardest army I have ever used in any edition. We pay an inflated rate for our units. Our top units: -podded furioso, baal pred, fast vindi etc, would not get into the top5 in any other dex. We struggle against almost any optimum list (believe me - if your opponents keep losing to you, no matter the fact that you could outsmart napoleon, they are either making major blunders, having the worst dice rolling in history or simply are not playing optimum lists). And we are an assault army in an edition which massively favours shooting.
Of course we could all be wrong, our experiance means nothing and we just herp-derp around the battlefield with our lists whilst trying to write our next one on a sticky note with the rubber end of a pencil, making you seem the re-born soul of Alexander the Great. But if I, like all the other BA players on this thread who say our dex gives us a disadvantage, is that bad, that would of course mean the opponents I beat regualarly with my crons and CSM (yes - you read that right, CSM, no heldrakes either) must make Lenny from Of Mice and Men look like a Mastermind finalist.
Deepstriking Landraides can only work together with beacon but still you'd need an way to much free space at spots were you actually what your LR to be...
Since I'm playing in a more beer&prezels environment my BA experiences aren't als grimdark as they might be in a competetive tournament.
I'm currently wondering if it is more efficient to bring my assault squads with dual melta or dual plasma (or anything else)?
I prefere to play pure BA Lists therefore most of the time my Lists consists of Libby, 1-2 Sternguard pods, 3-4 Assualt squads, maybe some dread / DC in pods, some preds. The meta around here ist mostly AM and orcs with few eldar/tau/nec.
gmaleron wrote: Also because of the FAQ Vanguard Vets can now assault after Deep Striking which is kind of huge. Watched my buddies x2 10 man Vanguard Vet squads wreck a Tau army because they came down, survived overwatch and went to town.
I don't believe they can. The rules for reserves states that a unit may never assault after deep-striking.
...hm... On the other hand though, since the rules for Heroic Intervention outright state that the unit may assault after deepstriking, would this then fall under the purview of "codex rules always trump BRB rules"?
Codex specific trumps rule book general. The BA version of Heroic Intervention is the only thing Vanguard Vets have to justify their massive points cost. Honour Guard are the same price, come with a Sanguinary Novitiate, and don't give up points for being killed in Scouring.
Well said, warcrimes. Vanguard vets have been one unit that ive been thinking about putting back into my lists recently. Nothing fancy, just melta bombs and maybe a power fist on the sgt to deal with things like russes and riptides. They may end up making the cut, but my lists at 1850 and 2k are pretty solid at the moment and i dont know what i would drop
th3maninblak wrote: I honestly have had no more problems than i ever did facing down newer armies. Theres a good bit of eldar in my area, long with strong amounts of necrons, AM, and orks. Granted, there are a lot of space wolf players too, but still. Ive spent the better part of 6th edition beating up on armies that the internet says should crush me.
Im just gonna bow out of this thread. Theres really no convincing any of you. The best analogy for this army i can make is to 5th edition eldar. You had to be smart and play the army very well, and you could beat any opponent with it. We have the tools to win.
Don't get down. You are right about a lot of this stuff. The people who come on here and complain about the BA are those who can't get them to work right. They would rather try to convince the world the BA are bad then realize they have failed.
This is coming from a two time Adepticon champion and someone who regularly plays against GT winners and American ETC players.
Im surprised an Adepticon champion cannot tell when units are overcosted and come from a dex which is poorly externally balanced. Im also surprised that ANY regular tournament goer has not seen with their own eyes how poorly BA do in a competative environment.
And this is coming from the player who origionally proposed the meph-star, the player who formulated the tactic of using stronghold assault to slingshot an entire BA army into the opponents deployment line turn1 and has advocated the use of the stormraven with 180 degree turn hover tactic to effectively take down serpents.
Check my history. You will see it littered with lists accepted as very strong 'for BA', you will see tactics proposed which have been hailed as great ideas (and work well in practice).
But yes - I cannot make them work as well as I can make any other dex work.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and lets not forget my personal favourite suggestion of mine involving 4 inquisitors and 12 servo skulls enabling ANY jp equipped BA unit to deepstike accurately anywhere on the board, including vanguard vets.
As a self proclaimed adepticon winner can you please enlighten me to the tactics im clearly missing? As since I have played BA since second ive obviously become blinkered and don't think outside the box enough (despite the unusual but effwctive tactics and combinations I have proposed). What are these ideas that level the playing ground for an overcosted dex which is geared for assault in an edition which punishes assault?
Please don't tell me that I shouldn't be looking at assault, as every other dex does more effective shooting for cheaper, so trying to outshoot most opponents won't work.
Now whislt I may disagree with the effectiveness of some of th3maninblaks suggestions, he/she has at least proposed some, rather than just joining a thread and saying 'there is nothing wrong with BA its just that BA players are s**t'.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/07/13 22:56:09
I'm new to Blood Angels, but I want to play a list that's more assault oriented. My gameplan is to line up a first turn blitzkrieg with the Baals via scout+fast, then drop in the assault squads to pop vehicles and then start assaulting everything.
I'm new to Blood Angels, but I want to play a list that's more assault oriented. My gameplan is to line up a first turn blitzkrieg with the Baals via scout+fast, then drop in the assault squads to pop vehicles and then start assaulting everything.
Comments? Critiques?
1400 points?
I'd be very careful with Flamestorm/flamer Baals. Getting that close means they are going to die after one shot unless they kill absolutely everything within 18". Best used to take out isolated units obviously, but smart players will not give you any juicy targets. Personally, I'd ditch the heavy flamer sponsons and get a second melta-gun for your assault squads.
Also, you should aim for 1 Sang priest per 2 10 man assault squads. Having 3 squads is kind of an awkward number and doesn't line up quite right.
I'd try dumping the melta-bombs and getting melta-guns. Drop the Heavy Flamer sponsons. Play 1500-1850 points and try to get a fourth assault squad in, or some manner of unit that will benefit from the second sang priest. Maybe some attack bikes. Other choice is to ditch the second sang priest and go with a jetpack honor guard with some special weapons. 4 plasma or 4 melta should work okay.
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hi all
i'm not experienced; i play "beer and pretzel" game for fun with friends; and since november i played almost all week and always lost (well, one game ended in a draw...)
still, i'd like to talk about it and says my two cents u_u
i used for a while a blitzkrieg tactic with 2x Baal Predator flamestorm/HB moving forward with scout movement, 2x furioso on pod dropping on first turn, Las/Plas razorbacks and sternguard/assault on pod (depending on point cost). And Mephiston.
It's a funny list, and if you can roll a few good dice, you can break havoc on first or second turn. If you manage to hit hard you can erase oppnent scoring unit and/or inflict a serious wound on his back. However, after a couple of turn you lose almost all your firepower, Baal goes down pretty fast against Eldars' mobility, IG's tank or Tau's massive firepower. If you fail to maximise on first few turns, you're dead meat and razorback ar way too light (or better: was too light on 6th edition, dunno if in 7th are more powerful)
Mephiston now is'nt a viable option, not if you're not planning a whole list around him. But you can found many things to put on table for 250 points
i normally don't use Sanguinary Priest if i use Tanks tactics, to save some points. However, i always use them with JP/Drop Pod assault squads. If you are planning on bringing them along in a big red blob of death, you can use 2 SP for 3 assault squad but afaik you'll need to keep them pretty close (blood chalice work just for any model inside 6" radius, not for every unit)
sometime i tried the big red swarm tactic, and ended up bad :(
i would like to use a DoA tactic but reserve roll is bad. even if we could reroll. One time i was tabled out at 2nd turn with half my army still on reserve; mostly of the time stormraven came out at the wrong turn while almost all my army is gone, and there's nothing more she can do. I used to put communion inquisitor, but now i can't use it anymore :(
Vanguard deep striking and assaulting is COOOOL but you need to put at least 10 of them, 'cause they get easily overwatched out;
Sanguinary Guard is a cool unit, 'cause you can pack 5 of them with Dante and a Priest and surgically deep strike 7 infernus pistol behind big heavy target, like Leman Russ and Land Raiders, and pop them out. You can also use them to seize objectives and assassinate big fellas. However, it's a 570 point 7-men troop they can be easily wiped out by a single lucky artillery fire (a single devastator cannon blast is good enough) or some tau's or eldars' rain of fire. For 570 point it's preatty expensive, considering you can put TWO LRC, complete with assault marine inside, for just 30 points more
as for Reclusiarch i found them the best HQ choice if i plan using DC; why should i use a chaplain when i can get a reclusiarch with commander stats, acting as hq and warlord, for just 40 points more? I found most of time HQ choice is a mandatory choice i would be glad to not use X_X
if i'm not using DC (or not needing a chaplain) i mostly use Libby 'cause are less expensive HQ choice; however, Libby is now just a little less expensive than before: it cost 100/125 points vs 100/150 points on 6th edition (and 65/95 points for SM) :\
I would be happy to start using DC again, and probably i will try it on the next game. Dunno when i'll play next time, so dunno if i will change my mind later :p
th3maninblak wrote: I honestly have had no more problems than i ever did facing down newer armies. Theres a good bit of eldar in my area, long with strong amounts of necrons, AM, and orks. Granted, there are a lot of space wolf players too, but still. Ive spent the better part of 6th edition beating up on armies that the internet says should crush me.
Im just gonna bow out of this thread. Theres really no convincing any of you. The best analogy for this army i can make is to 5th edition eldar. You had to be smart and play the army very well, and you could beat any opponent with it. We have the tools to win.
Don't get down. You are right about a lot of this stuff. The people who come on here and complain about the BA are those who can't get them to work right. They would rather try to convince the world the BA are bad then realize they have failed.
This is coming from a two time Adepticon champion and someone who regularly plays against GT winners and American ETC players.
Go on then. Tell the peasants how to suck less instead of just trolling.
"The Emporer is a rouge trader."
- Charlie Chaplain.
I see ore trolling in your post than his, honestly. No one was called a peasant.
Edit, to one of the above posts, descent of angels lets us reroll to come in from reserves, in addition to subtracting d6 from the scatter. This is why its a very strong rule.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/14 20:22:53
Thud was being sarcastic with the peasant reference. DarthDiggler has contributed nothing to this post apart from making claims he can't prove and calling people failiures.
Both myself and thud have asked him/her to demonstrate his Blood Angel mastery and share his/her outstanding tactics that exceptionally experienced BA players must obviously be blind to. As it stands he/she hasn't. He/she has only had a day, granted. But I remain incredibly sceptical.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also in response to your edit: try DoA with servo skulls for pinpoint accurate deepstrike. Not as overcosted by that point... works very nicely :-)!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/14 20:26:22
Honestly though, with mechanized armies on the rise, we've benefited in 2 ways. 1, we can bring a LOT of melta, which is great because its now the only weapon that can somewhat reliably 1 shot a tank. Our sgts can carry 2 melta pistols, we have access to 2 melta guns per troop squad, our sang guard can have up to 5 melta pistols, honor guard can take up to 4 melta guns. You get the idea. 2nd, mechanized fast BA has gotten a definite buff from the damage table changes as well
My mech still gets glanced out which was the way I lost them in 6th. Yeh we are a bit more durable but so are everyone else. It was a universal buff to mech.
I agree that dual infernus pistols + melta gun is a decent troops choice for 140pts, when taken in a pod.
Honour guard with 4 melta plus free priest is nice too. Again in a pod.
Sang guard however... firstly I personally believe they are massively overcosted, but lets ignore that for a minute. I don't like to deepstrike sang guard then shoot as it is just asking for ap2 blasts to wipe 200+ pts in one shot. Therefore I believe the powerfist to be a far better option. To be in melta range of the pistols you must be within 3". So you would be in charge range of your target anyway, getting 3-4 (depending on banner), st 8-9 (depending on furious charge) attacks against rear armour. Plus the pfs are 'hidden' so are more versitile, against say, mcs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I do also appreciate the fact that we can have 6 av13 vehicles in one FOC.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/14 20:42:17
There really isn't much DarthDiggler can say to overturn everyone's opinion of competitive BA. You either wait patiently for the new codex and run your BA the best way you can, or you consider them awful and write them off. There isn't much someone is going to say on a forum that'll change one's mind, especially if there's a lot of table-top experience helping a person make that decision.
I personally feel that 7th has opened up a few nifty options for BA as they currently sit, but it's hard to get too excited about anything with the new codex around the corner. Just gonna keep assembling and painting at a non-too-frantic pace until things shake out.
Either way, we shouldn't forget that Kenny Boucher placed 2nd in the Silver Bracket with a pure BA list a last year's NOVA Open (I believe he want 6-2 overall). That SHOULD count for something.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/14 21:01:10
Finishing 6th is exceptionally good for BA. Must give full credit to the guy! I agree that it is still possible to win competitive games with BA. It is just far more difficult than almost any other dex. Giving your opponent a head start and then trying to make it back (especially 3/4 of the time at adepticon) is impressive to say the least.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Still remember the average placement of BA lists though...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/14 21:15:25
Any discussion needs to be in the context of the game your playing - are you playing at a specific Tournament ? Are you playing Maelstrom of War missions ? Are you playing with Super Heavies, unlimited multiple detachments ? 40k can be a completely different game depending on the context.
There's also a decrease in skill and an increase in randomness in the base game, especially playing the Maelstrom of War missions. It's not quite snakes and ladders, but it's heading in that direction. It doesn't really matter what you bring if you keep rolling up 3 VPs while your opponent rolls 1's
Having said all that BA suffers from :-
1. BA units and upgrades are expensive.
2. BA are focused towards assault in an increasingly shooting focussed game
3. 6th/7th neutered Assault Marines by killing assault from transports, and by making bikes just plain better point for point
4. The change to 7th killed the BA psychic powers. Killing off the last remaining good builds (Fear Bomb etc)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/16 11:42:10
So I played my second game in 7th, with tactical objectives.
My BA did fairly well.
All I'm saying is that with the new missions, the objective camping (which BA did not do well) has lost meaning and is being replaced by fast-moving troops, which we just happen to have.
We have pretty much discussed cost to death on this and other threads. Certain BA units are overcosted, but most are pretty appropriate. Fast moving units to keep up with dynamic objective is something we have in spades, and when you really look at the cost of an ASM from our codex to the marine book, theyre exactly the same with the vet sgt upgrade. The loss of our psychic powers was bad, but we received some buffs this edition that outweighed the negatives.
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