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Hi all
i'm think someone else asked same thing, but in 5 pages i did'nt found a topic, so i decided to start one
i'm about to finish reading 7th edition book, and coupled with faq, i'm wondering what changed for BA.
so long i see (correct me if i'm wrong)
- Mephiston got nerfed by faq; other special char is still crap so the only viable options for hq is librarian. Maybe an allied inquisitor for warlord has bettere cost/usefulness ratio, however
- Death company is still overpriced crap, and they still can't score (where everything else could, including DC dreadnaught)
- Sanguinary Guard still useless, compared to standard assault marines, 'cause they cost too much and cannot be more than 5
- bike got nerfed by jink nerf, however better option is to add white scar/raven guard allies for lower cost and better options
- Assault Marines scoring capability is less powerful where everyting can score; btw still our better option because cost/option and transports discount make them better than tactical
- Land Raider now can score, and more difficult to explode in a single lucky shot

so long, seems to me that only viable option for a "not just for fun" army list is an heavy mecha list: 3 land raider, 'raven, predator or vindicator for support; everything with 5 man assault unit inside 'cause they are just the minimal asset to take discounted LR. Warlord is a librarian with 3 divination powers (2 'cause our librarian get 2 power, +1 for focus power)

am i wrong? there are other viable options?
still not finished 7th edition reading so maybe i missed something...

Pod army is still ok-ish.

How is Mephiston nerfed?
I can now team him up with Corbulo; Give him 4 Biomancy spells.
Smash, Eternal Warrior, 4+ FNP, It Will Not Die are possible powers.

Not sure on the Death Company. Are they still unable to score if I attach a Chaplain?
DC Dreads are scoring and if you bring them in a droppod that pod is also scoring.
Hell, put them in a Land Raider Crusader and have that as the scoring one! Even Objective Secured
DC-pricing is "okayish" if you don't take their jump packs.

But what did you expect?
The faults in the BA-Codex cannot be fixed with a BRB; they need better rules on some units and a heavy price reduction on nearly everything.

BA can still be descent.... You have to focus on the strengths of the book though.... FAST baals, vindicators and razorbacks are still pretty strong and reasonably priced. Precision Deepstriking assault squads with meltas are still pretty good. The furioso dread is still pretty descent as well. AV 13 is good.

I have been happy with Inferno Cannon Baal Predators, and the fragnought still does his sinful business all over light infantry. I haven't gotten around to trying to run a list with 4 ObSec Land Raiders yet, though.

Also, I remain convinced that Razorbacks are terrible. The changes to the vehicle damage chart don't change that 3 hull points at AV11 crumples in a stiff breeze.

Kangodo wrote:
How is Mephiston nerfed?
I can now team him up with Corbulo; Give him 4 Biomancy spells.
Smash, Eternal Warrior, 4+ FNP, It Will Not Die are possible powers.

But he lost access to Wings of Sanguinius, which he needed for mobility. And since he's not an independent character, he can't just ride along in another squad's Land Raider.

It really does seem like the only thing you can really do with Meph is ally your Blood Angels in with Grey Knights so you can attach Draigo, Corbulo, and Coteaz to him and put the whole pile in a Stormraven.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
It really does seem like the only thing you can really do with Meph is ally your Blood Angels in with Grey Knights so you can attach Draigo, Corbulo, and Coteaz to him and put the whole pile in a Stormraven.

That's what our Blood Angels player has been doing. He attaches a librarian, Corbulo and Mephistion, and buffs the unit with divination powers. Both of them ride around in a land raider, so that they can disembark, cast their Biomancy and Divination powers, then assault. It's a huge point sink (something like 800 points), but very killy.

Well, I think that a Razorback spam army supported by fast tanks is a viable option.

I'd include one fast moving cc oriented unit, but I'm not sure what to take.

Kangodo wrote:
How is Mephiston nerfed?

He lost S10 attack and wings of sanguinius
S10 is a big change, 'cause he could damage wraithknight with 2+ while at S6 damage it at 6+... it's an huge difference!!
however, 4 biomancy spell could be good enough, but the big nerf is the absence of Wings of Sanguinius: now he will need to walk to the enemy; ofc he can ride a veihicle BUT he cannot be _deployed_ inside a transport: he will need to embark on first turn, move on second turn, disembark on third and charge on fourth... it's a big difference!!

i see in the 7th he can team with another IC, and that's really cool so i can use a sanguinary priest; however, a 2 men unit into 3+ armor is a big fire magnet so will not live long enough... he's slow, now, and way less maneuvrable. AND still a big target with no much survivability.
it's still good, ok, but it cost more than a LR, and not quite useful IMHO

Kangodo wrote:

Not sure on the Death Company. Are they still unable to score if I attach a Chaplain?

This one i'm not sure...
DC is overpriced, and you will need to put them on a vehicle because they are no use if need to walk to their target; plus, with chainsword are no more effective than assault squad. +15 point for a power weapon boost their cost to the sky. And i'm not talking about jump pack!!!

Kangodo wrote:

Hell, put them in a Land Raider Crusader and have that as the scoring one! Even Objective Secured

Ok this is good, very good. To be honest, a 5 man DC with bolter into a LRC is something i will whant to try. However, still more expensive than a 5 man assault squad, and honestly don't know if cost increase at the same rate than utility increase...

Kangodo wrote:

But what did you expect?
The faults in the BA-Codex cannot be fixed with a BRB; they need better rules on some units and a heavy price reduction on nearly everything.

Well to be honest i would expect nothing
just to check if this subtle change will give more alternative than the 6th edition

i mean: on 6th edition the only viable half-competitive option would be LR spam heavy mecha list.
i used a lot an alpha strike list with 2x baal, 4x razorback and 3x drop pod (2 of them with fragioso) but i admit is not really effective if you lose initiative or when your opponent can intercept everything, or while bubblewrap everything. Plus, alpha strike list is good if you kill/destroy every opponent's big unit on first turn, 'cause on the subsequent turns they will erase you.
DoA, Bike spam, assault spam and inquisitor-allied list i tried few times with zero results

I was wondering if with rule changing on 7th edition there where half-competitive options different than heavy tank spamming

I might test both Mephiston and Death Company tomorrow against Orks.

My favourite way to field them is with Bolters; using Rapid Fire for two shots and then assaulting with 4 attacks.
5 models can put out 30 S4 attacks in one turn; I'm definitely attaching a Chaplain to them.
Combine that in a LRC, attach a DC-dread for scoring lulz.

Everybody on BnC thinkgs Mephy with Corby is ridiculously strong, so I'm seeing if I have the points for that.

Take Mephiston: Roll for biomancy, Pray for Iron arm endurance and warp speed. Obliterate anything that he gets close to. Perhaps 14 death Company followed by chaplain to kill stuff, while mephy takes the challenge... S9 T9 AP2 attacks(due to smash) 9 attacks on the charge(not sure) and initiative 9(not sure again)... And GK/BA/SW complain about losing their codex powers...(i can understand the wolves tho)

ThatSwellFella wrote:
Take Mephiston: Roll for biomancy, Pray for Iron arm endurance and warp speed. Obliterate anything that he gets close to. Perhaps 14 death Company followed by chaplain to kill stuff, while mephy takes the challenge... S9 T9 AP2 attacks(due to smash) 9 attacks on the charge(not sure) and initiative 9(not sure again)... And GK/BA/SW complain about losing their codex powers...(i can understand the wolves tho)

Mephiston has to actually roll for warp speed and iron arm for that to work. And then cast them.
With the old rules he automatically got wings, sword and bloodrage, and the opponent couldn't dispell them.
To run mephiston now he needs to be in a meph-star because you cannot rely on the 50% chance of rolling iron arm.
Losing codex powers is massive because book powers are not auto select so you cannot base strategies around them.
Rely on your assault squads getting a 5+ cover in the open from shield? Not anymore!
Liked now and again overloading on fear of darkness to send half the opponents tau army running off the board? That's no longer possible.
Deepstriking a lance casting libby in with a melta squad or giving a libby sword of sanguinius to give your force more AT umpf? Not allowed.
Jumping furioso dreads upfield with wings to get them across the board asap? Nope - they are now as slow as allll other dreads again and so don't fit with the armies fast theme.
Use mephy as a bully unit with wings and sword? Nope - hes slow and you can't rely on increased strength, so he doesn't terrify vehicles now.
Want a unit to reroll hits and wounds of a 1? Closest your going to get now is prescience for 2 warpcharge, which can be dispelled.

Losing auto select powers for RANDOM rolls on the BRB chart is massive. Yes - other armies have to do that too, but it was one of our major strengths that we could pick our powers. The minimal chance that mephy MIGHT roll ironarm and warpspeed does not make up for that.

ThatSwellFella wrote:
Take Mephiston: Roll for biomancy, Pray for Iron arm endurance and warp speed. Obliterate anything that he gets close to. Perhaps 14 death Company followed by chaplain to kill stuff, while mephy takes the challenge... S9 T9 AP2 attacks(due to smash) 9 attacks on the charge(not sure) and initiative 9(not sure again)... And GK/BA/SW complain about losing their codex powers...(i can understand the wolves tho)

Mephiston now has a delivery problem as he's hoofing around the board.

 DanielBeaver wrote:

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
It really does seem like the only thing you can really do with Meph is ally your Blood Angels in with Grey Knights so you can attach Draigo, Corbulo, and Coteaz to him and put the whole pile in a Stormraven.

That's what our Blood Angels player has been doing. He attaches a librarian, Corbulo and Mephistion, and buffs the unit with divination powers. Both of them ride around in a land raider, so that they can disembark, cast their Biomancy and Divination powers, then assault. It's a huge point sink (something like 800 points), but very killy.

Absolutely do not attach a Librarian to Mephbulo, unless the Libby is on a bike. You want to abuse the majority Toughness rules, and use Mephiston's toughness for the unit.

The whole point of Mephbulo is to get T6/9 (via iron arm) 3+/2+ fnp

The Draigo/Coteaz/Mephiston/Corbulo star works as it's mixed toughness T5/T3/T6/T4, thus using the highest value.

I'd probably just keep it to Mephiston and Corbulo though, in a Stormraven or Land Raider of your choice.

Well, I wouldn't bother with Mephiston and Corbulo. Its a one-trick pony, a point sink, and the enemy will see it coming.
Named characters have a bad taste.

I'll agree that Cobulo is much better among the guts of your army than he would be following Mephiston around.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Mephiston has to actually roll for warp speed and iron arm for that to work. And then cast them.
With the old rules he automatically got wings, sword and bloodrage, and the opponent couldn't dispell them.
To run mephiston now he needs to be in a meph-star because you cannot rely on the 50% chance of rolling iron arm.
Losing codex powers is massive because book powers are not auto select so you cannot base strategies around them.
Rely on your assault squads getting a 5+ cover in the open from shield? Not anymore!
Liked now and again overloading on fear of darkness to send half the opponents tau army running off the board? That's no longer possible.
Deepstriking a lance casting libby in with a melta squad or giving a libby sword of sanguinius to give your force more AT umpf? Not allowed.
Jumping furioso dreads upfield with wings to get them across the board asap? Nope - they are now as slow as allll other dreads again and so don't fit with the armies fast theme.
Use mephy as a bully unit with wings and sword? Nope - hes slow and you can't rely on increased strength, so he doesn't terrify vehicles now.
Want a unit to reroll hits and wounds of a 1? Closest your going to get now is prescience for 2 warpcharge, which can be dispelled.

Losing auto select powers for RANDOM rolls on the BRB chart is massive. Yes - other armies have to do that too, but it was one of our major strengths that we could pick our powers. The minimal chance that mephy MIGHT roll ironarm and warpspeed does not make up for that.

that's EXACTLY my point.
trading a killing machine for something that can be a killing machine if you are lucky, in my opinion has a "nerf" sign bigger than whole tabletop
btw, not really complaining: i was waiting for this and think everyone who use BA where aware of this

the problem is, now we can't count on the power from the book BUT nothing else was given in exchange.
So some list still useable on 6th edition now had to be changed
and thus the question: what changed on BA lists? wich ones are still viable option, wich one was not viable on 6th edition but can be a valid option now, and wich one now got nerfed?

Bartali wrote:Absolutely do not attach a Librarian to Mephbulo, unless the Libby is on a bike. You want to abuse the majority Toughness rules, and use Mephiston's toughness for the unit.
The whole point of Mephbulo is to get T6/9 (via iron arm) 3+/2+ fnp
The Draigo/Coteaz/Mephiston/Corbulo star works as it's mixed toughness T5/T3/T6/T4, thus using the highest value.
I'd probably just keep it to Mephiston and Corbulo though, in a Stormraven or Land Raider of your choice.

I lost you on the Mephbulo star...
Corbulo has a FNP 2+, but Mephiston is still a 5+; however, a str 8+ weapon cancel FNP for Corbulo. Ok Mephiston + Corbulo is still better than just Mephiston, but walking around the table means they will not get anywhere and will be under heavy fire for all game long
They can't ride a Land Raider from deploy, 'cause LR can be bought only as transport; ofc they can ride it on the game: first turn came aboard, second turn, LR will close to enemy, third turn disembark, 4th turn assault... does'nt look a good investment for 600 points...

however, a Mepbulo star could be viable IF you build an entire army just to deliver them... and still i'm not convinced it could work against fast moving high shooting army (ie eldar, tau, maybe also astra militorum, necrons...)

That's why you want to take Blood Angels as an allied detachment for Grey Knights and attach Draigo and a grenade caddy Inquisitor (or Coteaz).

You leave Corbulo out front to tank all the small arms fire, with Draigo in base to base with him so that anything that would deny him his armor save or Feel No Pain can be shunted to Draigo who has a Storm Shield and Eternal Warrior.

Mephiston is there to make the whole mess T6, the Inquisitor is there to throw rad and psychotroke grenades at everyone (and give your pair of psykers another warp die to play with). Also, Grey Knights can take Land Raiders as Heavy Support and said Land Raider also gives you an additional warp die.

But on the whole, Meph is bad unless he's got his own personal Stormraven.

Mephy and corbs can start behind the raider and embark turn1. It then moves 6". It then turbos 18" next turn, to the edge of the opponents deployment zone. Moves 6" turn 3 and a 6" disembark will get you within 1" of an opponents unit on the back line, then due to it being an assault vehicle they can now charge. Turn 3 charge is almost impossible to muck up if the raider survives. Still...

With corbs and mephy taking shots, if iron hand is cast, LOS any st6-7 onto corbs. Anything else mephy can tank. If iron arm is not cast, all shots less than st8 are LOS to corbs and mephy takes the rest. It still works. It would be better with a bike riding SE chapter master. OR Loth and a SE chappy. Yes majority toughness is 4, but corbs can tank upto st7 and the chappy deals with all the rest. Loth can then GoI the squad to the opponents backline turn 1 for a turn2 assault. Less reliant on iron arm then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It has no problem against static gunline armies. But fast gunline armies like eldar prove an issue.

I'm not saying mephiston is great, but why can he not get a 3rd turn or even 2nd turn charge?

1st turn load in landraider and move.
2nd + turn move and move out and assault. it is an assault vehicle.

You still have the problem that you're wasting an ObSec Land Raider to deliver Mephiston into combat when he used to be able to get there on his own.

each-uisge wrote:

This one i'm not sure... DC is overpriced, and you will need to put them on a vehicle because they are no use if need to walk to their target; plus, with chainsword are no more effective than assault squad. +15 point for a power weapon boost their cost to the sky. And i'm not talking about jump pack!!!

I agree that JP is overpriced, but rest i disagree with. They have 1 more attack, fnp and WS 5. You can't challenge them, so your i1/i2 weapons cant get blocked by other characters at i4+ and they have 5 attacks on the charge. One power axe is 5 ap2 hits assaulting. IMO they are the strongest unit to put in a Landraider(2-3 power weapon/fists no hq required) Them not being able to score is less of an issue in 7th due to 90% of your army can do that including the dedicated transport.

They hardcounter other MEQ and TH/SS termies.

I have been using 5 DC with jump packs and fist, it's not a cheap unit but the terror it fills my opponents with is enough so they tend to leave my other heavy hitters alone like my Baals, maybe that's because they're inexperienced but 5 WS 5 S 5 attacks on the charge is nothing to be sniffed at. If they got rending in the new codex in my eyes they would be perfect.

I don't use Mephiston or Corbulo and that's mainly because I don't like the look of the models so I have no input on them at all, however a Divination Libby/w Honour guard has been the bane of many Imperial Guard players recently

Why would 5 MEQ bodies be that terrifying? For all their offensive punch, much like Vanguard Vets, they are no more resilient than anyone else in the army. Gunning down 5 Space Marines with Feel No Pain should be a walk in the park.

at 1500 Im fielding 3 razor backs and 3 drop pods I allie with Vanilla marines , 3 assault squads in the razorbacks a 5 man DC with power fist and 2 8 man TS in the other 2 drop pods 1st turn i drop in the 2 TS making them focus on though units while the razorbacks provide support the DC come in later to pull a troop unit off an objective and whip anything left over out . Alos how is Gabriael Seth not a good character in the BA codex I get 4 attacks base at Strength 8 rending and the ability to instant hit anything he is in base contact with for only 160 points you hes not bad

Seth needs a delivery method which immediately starts increasing his points quite a bit. He's a brilliant character just how are you getting him into combat? He doesn't even have a 2+ if memory serves me right..

When people have been careless and DC have chewed up squads twice there size in one turn people tend to be a techy about letting them live. We do play with a lot of terrain so it's easier hiding small squads.

ether with a assult squad in a land raider or in a drop pod hiding him in one of the 8 man tactical squads for a turn or riding him with the death company it really depends what im playing agents yes he has a 3+ armor and a 4+ envy that is way more then a liby has but so far i have played necrons tau orks and tyrnids with this staratigy and haven't lost yet

I ran a triple stormraven list for the first time recently, which had a slight wiff of stilton about it. My opponent was running Ork list whose only AA was a quad gun. Luckily all 3 SR and 2 x 5 man assault marines (1 with 2 flamer, 1 with 2 Melta) came in together and brought alot of pain. I tabled my opponent by turn 7 as he had no answers to the SR, I also had Baal at the end of the game, but that's it.

Obviously massive risks involved if your reserves don't come in when you need them, but it certainly has some virtue.

D

Remtek wrote:I agree that JP is overpriced, but rest i disagree with. They have 1 more attack, fnp and WS 5. You can't challenge them, so your i1/i2 weapons cant get blocked by other characters at i4+ and they have 5 attacks on the charge. One power axe is 5 ap2 hits assaulting. IMO they are the strongest unit to put in a Landraider(2-3 power weapon/fists no hq required) Them not being able to score is less of an issue in 7th due to 90% of your army can do that including the dedicated transport.

Ok for delivery on transport (LRR is a good choice 'cause has assault and flamer); however i was thinking about bolter DC wit power sword: foir 175 points you get 10 rapid bolter, then charge and 20x S5 AP3 attack. However, they lack the power to pierce some vehicles and MC (and i play a lot against MC) so maybe power maul (S7 AP4), or power axe (S6, AP2) is better? a chaplain/reclusiarch inside them should make them scoring (at least: the chaplain is scoring) and LRC is ObSec scoring
hey i whanna try it, sound even better than TH/SS termies with Corbulo!

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:That's why you want to take Blood Angels as an allied detachment for Grey Knights and attach Draigo and a grenade caddy Inquisitor (or Coteaz).
You leave Corbulo out front to tank all the small arms fire, with Draigo in base to base with him so that anything that would deny him his armor save or Feel No Pain can be shunted to Draigo who has a Storm Shield and Eternal Warrior.
Mephiston is there to make the whole mess T6, the Inquisitor is there to throw rad and psychotroke grenades at everyone (and give your pair of psykers another warp die to play with). Also, Grey Knights can take Land Raiders as Heavy Support and said Land Raider also gives you an additional warp die.
But on the whole, Meph is bad unless he's got his own personal Stormraven.

Ok for the Mephbulo Star. However, this unit will cost roughly 1000 points!
plus, i'm playing BA, and i got just few models to arrange an inquisitorial detachment, not a full GK army...

PastelAvenger wrote:I have been using 5 DC with jump packs and fist, it's not a cheap unit but the terror it fills my opponents with is enough so they tend to leave my other heavy hitters alone like my Baals, maybe that's because they're inexperienced but 5 WS 5 S 5 attacks on the charge is nothing to be sniffed at. If they got rending in the new codex in my eyes they would be perfect.

well a single DC with JP and PW is 50 point; 10 of them with a chaplain is 615 point, 655 if you put a reclusiarch. it HAS to be scaring!
however, at the same cost you put 2x LR with a 5 men troop with plasma, and in the end i found the latter more useful, versatile and survivable (and i'm not saying scoring)

PastelAvenger wrote:however a Divination Libby/w Honour guard has been the bane of many Imperial Guard players recently

just a question: why honour guard and not a 5 men sternguard (with those nasty special ammunition) plus SP? they are more cost efficient and got no less options... or am i wrong?

PastelAvenger wrote:Seth needs a delivery method which immediately starts increasing his points quite a bit. He's a brilliant character just how are you getting him into combat? He doesn't even have a 2+ if memory serves me right..

Seth is a powerful yet slow crushing machine; the only good thing he can be put on a squad so you can drop pod him or LR him with an assault. However, i mainly use librarian for a "cheap" (lol) HQ choice, or a reclusiarch if i use DC for buffying them. Sometime i used Mephiston. Once i tried using Tycho but got pwned
I got Dante, and it was a pain but very rewarding model to paint: i like the way it looks. And i use it a lot as a proxy for something else with jump pack. However i think is as cool as useless at the moment.