Adeptus Custodes

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**Powerguy**

Void__Dragon wrote:
Powerguy wrote:
DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Ferrus would be stronger only because he is more machine than he is flesh

Um Ferrus wasn't largely bionics or anything like that. He had metal (well technically Necrodermis) hands, but was otherwise flesh and blood like the rest of the primarchs. His legion were the ones who were heavily into bionics (partially to simulate his metal hands), and that only became their dominate practice after his death.

Anyway, even ignoring the whole 'primarchs are magic superheroes who can do what they want' side of things, Angron holding up a Warhound's foot is that implausible imo. First of all, its a Warhound not a Warlord like some people seem to think, its the smallest Titan around and is no bigger than something like a Baneblade (which Vulkan was more than capable of pushing around, so a Primarch moving a something that big around is not unprecedented). Secondly he was only holding one foot up, he didn't lift the entire thing up by its waist so it wasn't carrying the entire weight. Given the size and construction of Titans I think its pretty safe to assume that they don't sprint around (even moreso in this context as it was a restrictive urban environment) i.e they are walking, which means the other foot is still on the ground and carrying most of the weight. When you read that sequence it is mostly made to sound like Angron is fighting the power from the servos and machinery that is trying to get the leg to straighten rather than the weight of the entire titan.

That actually makes the feat more impressive.

It was running to crush Lorgar and Angron caught it.

He'd have been dealing with over a thousand tons of force.

From memory it wasn't running. Lorgar takes a volley from the Warhound to the face from close range which overloads his TK shield and he goes down. The Titan commander see this and decides to walk his titan over and crush him rather than shoot him while he is down (presumably because he wanted to break the Word Bearers morale, which to be fair is a decent plan). Angron intercepts the foot as it is coming down, but I'm 99% sure the titan had walked up and then stamped its foot down ala crush Lorgar like a bug rather than doing a run up and just trying to crush him as he runs past (which seems like it could be tricky anyway since I'm guessing Titans don't have perfect control of where their feet land lol).

**ThePrimordial**

A lot of newcomers here, huh?
Well to answer your question no Custodes don't come close.
You could send all ten thousand Custodes against Angron and they would likely lose due to astronomical speed strength and skill differences. Send them against Magnus and he stops time and eviscerates them all at once.
Primarchs are the single most devastating thing you could ever come across, discounting starships.
In the case of the Daemon Primarchs Imperators present little threat in comparison.

**Pilau Rice**

Lord Tarkin wrote:
Uh, alright y'all. If Angron can lift a titans foot than Vulkan can beat an Emperor class titan to scrap metal. I honestly don't buy that childish fairytale but if you wish to indulge than go ahead.

It did happen Tarkin, have a read of Betrayer. Lorgar takes a full Plasma Cannon blast to the boat race (face), lord knows how many bolter shells and then to make sure that he is dead the Princeps of the Warhound orders to crush him. Angron, who's been digging minecraft style, digs himself out of the hole and catches the foot before it can crush Lorgar.

In Promethean Sun Vulkan is throwing tanks, if I recall correctly, like they are tennis balls.

ThePrimordial wrote:

You could send all ten thousand Custodes against Angron and they would likely lose due to astronomical speed strength and skill differences.

I don't believe that for a second, sure Angron is a beast, but even he would succumb to weight of numbers and Custodes aren't slouches when it comes down to taking out the trash.

**Powerguy**

Pilau Rice wrote:

ThePrimordial wrote:

You could send all ten thousand Custodes against Angron and they would likely lose due to astronomical speed strength and skill differences.

I don't believe that for a second, sure Angron is a beast, but even he would succumb to weight of numbers and Custodes aren't slouches when it comes down to taking out the trash.

Yeah this is precisely what Russ shows Angron when the Wolves confront the World Eaters (this is prior to the heresy). Russ 'loses' the 1 v 1 duel with Angron, but in doing so he allows the Wolves to completely surround Angron (and crush the World Eaters in the process) making it pretty clear to all involved what the outcome would be. Sadly Angron is already too far gone to understand what Russ was trying to show him.

**DaKKaLAnce**

Powerguy wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:

ThePrimordial wrote:

You could send all ten thousand Custodes against Angron and they would likely lose due to astronomical speed strength and skill differences.

I don't believe that for a second, sure Angron is a beast, but even he would succumb to weight of numbers and Custodes aren't slouches when it comes down to taking out the trash.

Yeah this is precisely what Russ shows Angron when the Wolves confront the World Eaters (this is prior to the heresy). Russ 'loses' the 1 v 1 duel with Angron, but in doing so he allows the Wolves to completely surround Angron (and crush the World Eaters in the process) making it pretty clear to all involved what the outcome would be. Sadly Angron is already too far gone to understand what Russ was trying to show him.

The SW did not slaughter the world eaters. SW suffered more casualties . Yes he had the chance to change the tide, but Russ was so upset with angrons blind rage, that he decided to retreat .

**Void__Dragon**

Powerguy wrote:

Yeah this is precisely what Russ shows Angron when the Wolves confront the World Eaters (this is prior to the heresy). Russ 'loses' the 1 v 1 duel with Angron, but in doing so he allows the Wolves to completely surround Angron (and crush the World Eaters in the process) making it pretty clear to all involved what the outcome would be. Sadly Angron is already too far gone to understand what Russ was trying to show him.

To be fair that was one of Aaron Dembski-Bowden's most terrible pieces of writing (And with him there's a lot of stiff competition).

"Hurrr hey guys my plan that hinges on sacrificing most of my force and killing a Primarch with bolters totally won't backfire when the World Eaters who've surrounded us suddenly converge on me and massacre us to a man".

**Powerguy**

DaKKaLAnce wrote:

The SW did not slaughter the world eaters. SW suffered more casualties . Yes he had the chance to change the tide, but Russ was so upset with angrons blind rage, that he decided to retreat .

Casualties aside (again from memory but I'm pretty sure the Wolves had lower numbers) its pretty clearly stated that the World Eaters come off second best in that fight if you ignore the Primarch duel. Kharn realises that while Angron bested Russ in doing so he showed that a) his Legion is far superior to the World Eaters because they fought as a single cohesive unit rather than as individuals and b) Angron doesn't care about his own life let alone the lives of his Legion. This is what Russ realises on the spot and is why he pulls back.

And I think you are missing the point Void, Russ' goal was not to systematically wipe out the World Eaters, it was to confront Angron and if needed bring him down and this is exactly what they set themselves up to do. I'm not sure how it was terribly written, this is just how the Wolves work - they are given a task and they do whatever is asked of them without hesitation in order to see it done, even if everyone will hate them for it.

**BlaxicanX**

It was terribly written because not only did Angron defeat Russ, but it was outright stated in the description of the battle that the World Eaters were collectively wiping the floor with the Space Wolves. Though the Wolves showed enough coordination to encircle Angron, they were in the process of getting killed to a man. So, as the battle is described, we're supposed to believe that:

A) a dozen Marines armed with bolters is somehow going to kill a being who's physically contested a Titan, tackled whole armies by himself and survived being buried under skyscraper-described mountains of rubble, twice.

and

B) That after killing Angron, the Wolves would somehow manage to get a borderline unconscious Russ safely back to their own ships, despite being outnumbered, overrun and ground down by frothing World Eaters.

The point that ADB was trying to make through Russ was a good one. He just did a poor job of illustrating it. If he had described the battle as being more of a stalemate, with the Space Wolves fighting conservatively and enticing the bulk of the World Eaters away from Angron and Russ' duel so that a handful of the Wolves could circle around them and assassinate Angron, that would be one thing. But that's not how the fight was described.

**Void__Dragon**

Powerguy wrote:

And I think you are missing the point Void, Russ' goal was not to systematically wipe out the World Eaters, it was to confront Angron and if needed bring him down and this is exactly what they set themselves up to do. I'm not sure how it was terribly written, this is just how the Wolves work - they are given a task and they do whatever is asked of them without hesitation in order to see it done, even if everyone will hate them for it.

It's terribly written because it expects us to buy that some Space Wolves with bolters can kill a Primarch (Despite what we've seen them survive in the book), which is a plot inconsistency. It's terribly written because Russ had his Wolves basically surround Angron while heightening the Wolves' losses considerably. So the Wolves kill Angron. So what? As has been established in the novel, the World Eaters wouldn't be demoralized at all if Angron died. Now you have nothing keeping the World Eaters from pursuing the Space Wolves (Either Angron or Kharn ordered them to relent after Russ fled), and the World Eaters have the Wolves vastly outnumbered and surrounded, spelling almost certain doom. The point the story hammers on ours heads is a farce, because if Russ went through with his little ploy and had Angron killed, the Wolves would have died, including Russ. Then there's Russ generally acting weird and out of character while speaking with Angron, though that's arguably not ADB's fault and is more Abnett's. It's still inconsistent though.

The story was bad.

**Pilau Rice**

Also the World Eaters are a Legion that work fine without their Primarch, so what difference would losing Angron really make. It was a pointless lesson.

Russ probably would have done them a favour if he had managed to remove Angron though.

**ThePrimordial**

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Yeah , Someone really messed up the lore on that.

Sounds like he was given a matt ward treatment.
but make no mistake...He didnt just walk away unharmed. He was severally injured

I give Death the finger on this one.
Rise. Rise.
Angron is like 1/4 to 1/5 the height of the Titan you know. He is like 12 feet tall.
All the primarchs are made from massive amounts of power stolen from the Dark Gods.
Which is why they display strength far in excess of what thier body mass should allow like Daemons.
That was a beaten, bloody, armor less Angron too

As a Daemon Angron was the size of a Reaver....

**jhe90**

Given others are the strategy minded aspect of world eaters than there primarch it seems, powerful rage machine but they did not need him as such.

Even dead they could operate effectively just maybe as hit to prestige as there minus there primarc but was not heart and brain like others.

**DontEatRawHagis**

There was a scene in The Wolf of Ash and Fire where the Emperor fell into a fissure. Horus jumped after him, but the Custodes did as well. Plummeting into the lava and rock.

They would die for their Emperor without thinking. And they care not as durable as a Primarch, even Orks slaughtered them in combat. Against a Space Marine, the Custodes are equivalent of the best of them. Against a Primarch that were never slain by Orks? Well you can extrapolate.

**Ashiraya**

The Orks did not 'slaughter' them, but Custodes did indeed fall in battle against Orks. Not just any Orks, it was the demigod-Orks of the HH era, but still Orks.

**Macharius.**

Ashiraya wrote:
The Orks did not 'slaughter' them, but Custodes did indeed fall in battle against Orks. Not just any Orks, it was the demigod-Orks of the HH era, but still Orks.

Very true. Those same Orks almost killed Horus and Big E. The fact the Custodes could take them down like they did proves how powerful they are.

**Peregrine**

BlaxicanX wrote:
A) a dozen Marines armed with bolters is somehow going to kill a being who's physically contested a Titan, tackled whole armies by himself and survived being buried under skyscraper-described mountains of rubble, twice.

This is only unreasonable if you forget that the fluff is full of propaganda and myth. The most reasonable explanation here is that the ridiculous stories of lifting titans and fighting whole armies at once are just like every other religious myth, and are wildly exaggerated if not outright fiction. On the other hand, the dozen bolter marines don't care about the myth, and would have been quite capable of killing their target. So what happens is that after 10,000 years of exaggeration and hero worship the primarch's feats have become so exaggerated that the scenario isn't plausible anymore, but the bolter marines are still there in the background even if asking why they are present is heresy.

**Void__Dragon**

Peregrine wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:
A) a dozen Marines armed with bolters is somehow going to kill a being who's physically contested a Titan, tackled whole armies by himself and survived being buried under skyscraper-described mountains of rubble, twice.

This is only unreasonable if you forget that the fluff is full of propaganda and myth. The most reasonable explanation here is that the ridiculous stories of lifting titans and fighting whole armies at once are just like every other religious myth, and are wildly exaggerated if not outright fiction. On the other hand, the dozen bolter marines don't care about the myth, and would have been quite capable of killing their target. So what happens is that after 10,000 years of exaggeration and hero worship the primarch's feats have become so exaggerated that the scenario isn't plausible anymore, but the bolter marines are still there in the background even if asking why they are present is heresy.

Okay, prove it then.

**BlaxicanX**

Peregrine wrote:
This is only unreasonable if you forget that the fluff is full of propaganda and myth. The most reasonable explanation here is that the ridiculous stories of lifting titans and fighting whole armies at once are just like every other religious myth, and are wildly exaggerated if not outright fiction. On the other hand, the dozen bolter marines don't care about the myth, and would have been quite capable of killing their target. So what happens is that after 10,000 years of exaggeration and hero worship the primarch's feats have become so exaggerated that the scenario isn't plausible anymore, but the bolter marines are still there in the background even if asking why they are present is heresy.

But I don't care about personal opinions on what fluff is propaganda and what isn't.

I care only for what the fluff shows most consistently.

**Ashiraya**

Hey guys, it's clear that a lot of things in 40K is propaganda. Those times when Guardsmen have been able to somehow damage targets in PA are clearly just myths spread to improve morale. As are the examples of Guardsmen somehow beating anything at all in close combat, or Hotshot Lasguns being effective against armour.

You should look away from all those myths.

**BlaxicanX**

That the Imperial Guard even use guns is just myths and legends and propaganda.

In reality, the humble Katana is the standard weapon for all Guardsmen.

**Void__Dragon**

In fact there is no Imperial Guard.

Everyone's a Space Marine, the Imperial Guard are propaganda meant to inspire the masses into believing that a normal human can make a difference.

**Ashiraya**

The Imperium is a myth, it's really just a dozen people sitting in a propaganda-machine.

**BlaxicanX**

Masses? What masses? The idea of their being "a million" Imperial worlds is nothing but myth, legend and propaganda designed to fool Imperial citizens into believing that the Imperiun is vast and indomitable. Really the Imperium consists of only Terra and Mars.

edit- GOD DAMN IT.

**Void__Dragon**

When everything's propaganda, nothing is.

**BlaxicanX**

What you're saying is

it's propaganda within propaganda?

... Propagandception?

**Peregrine**

BlaxicanX wrote:
But I don't care about personal opinions on what fluff is propaganda and what isn't.

I care only for what the fluff shows most consistently.

But you have to consider WHY the fluff shows something consistently. Any story involving a primarch is going to consistently show them doing awesome things because that's the whole point of the prirmarchs. They're the main characters, and they're deliberately portrayed as larger than life heroes and villains. And the stories of the Heresy are explicitly legends of an almost-forgotten era, not a strictly factual account of history by an unbiased author.

Consider a similar situation in Star Wars: stormtrooper inaccuracy is a cliche, and the movies consistently show it. But which is the more reasonable explanation: that the empire's best troops are really that incompetent, or that they're consistently shooting at main characters who have to survive for story reasons?

Ashiraya wrote:
Hey guys, it's clear that a lot of things in 40K is propaganda. Those times when Guardsmen have been able to somehow damage targets in PA are clearly just myths spread to improve morale. As are the examples of Guardsmen somehow beating anything at all in close combat, or Hotshot Lasguns being effective against armour.

Except you've got that backwards. Power armor durability is the myth, the reality is much more likely that it is roughly as effective as it is on the tabletop. That is, it's a good defense against small arms fire (though not so good that marines never need to take cover), but nearly useless against heavier weapons.

**Void__Dragon**

You're confusing plot armour for deliberate attempts at portraying propaganda in work.

When the fandom can arbitrarily decide what's false and what's real there can be no discussion.

**BlaxicanX**

Peregrine wrote:
[But you have to consider WHY the fluff shows something consistently. Any story involving a primarch is going to consistently show them doing awesome things because that's the whole point of the prirmarchs. They're the main characters, and they're deliberately portrayed as larger than life heroes and villains. And the stories of the Heresy are explicitly legends of an almost-forgotten era, not a strictly factual account of history by an unbiased author.

Consider a similar situation in Star Wars: stormtrooper inaccuracy is a cliche, and the movies consistently show it. But which is the more reasonable explanation: that the empire's best troops are really that incompetent, or that they're consistently shooting at main characters who have to survive for story reasons?

The difference between the two is that there is a massive plethora of Star Wars fluff that establishes Stormtroopers as being fairly competent soldiers with decent aim and ability- thus we can excuse their dismal performance within the movies as being plot-armor for the heroes on account of their portrayal as good soldiers being the more consistent portrayal within Star Wars fluff.

By comparison, you claim that Primarchs "aren't actually" as strong as they're consistently portrayed within the Heresy series, but have little if any fluff to substantiate that claim.

Peregrine wrote:

Except you've got that backwards. Power armor durability is the myth, the reality is much more likely that it is roughly as effective as it is on the tabletop. That is, it's a good defense against small arms fire (though not so good that marines never need to take cover), but nearly useless against heavier weapons.

You've got it all wrong. The durability of power armor as portrayed in the fluff is myths and legends. What's more likely is that power armor is actually completely indestructible and no Space Marine has ever been killed in battle.

Fluff depicting Space Marines being killed in battle by weapons of any kind is propaganda created by Xenos commanders to inspire their troops.

**Ashiraya**

Peregrine wrote:

Except you've got that backwards. Power armor durability is the myth, the reality is much more likely that it is roughly as effective as it is on the tabletop. That is, it's a good defense against small arms fire (though not so good that marines never need to take cover), but nearly useless against heavier weapons.

I'd love to see your source on this. One that you can prove is not in-universe propaganda.

**Peregrine**

Void__Dragon wrote:
You're confusing plot armour for deliberate attempts at portraying propaganda in work.

No, both of those things are definitely present. Characters have their plot armor, but the various sources are often inconsistent or don't make any sense from a realism perspective. The best way to resolve those inconsistencies is to remember that the story is usually told from an imperial perspective, and the authors have explicitly stated that there is no such thing as canon in 40k and events are often wildly exaggerated to tell a better story or long-forgotten history where the story is at best an approximation of what really happened.

When the fandom can arbitrarily decide what's false and what's real there can be no discussion.

It's not arbitrary, it's base on what makes the most sense. In the case of bolter marines vs. primarch, which is the more likely explanation: that the other primarch was an absolute

ing idiot and didn't know that his bolter marines couldn't even scratch their target's paint, or that primarch durability is based primarily on myths and character shields and they can be killed by a hail of bolter fire.