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Lol no worries. I see the quote boxes are being crazy for you too. That's proper odd :-s.

IG knock people out of transports with regularity. Terrain choke points: common. Then 12 blasts and 9 Heavy Bolters go off and gnashing of teeth is heard. I don't know a DARN PERSON who won't sphincter up when that time comes. Bad luck is always a possibility with blasts but for that price: I'll take my chances. it's a dice game.

If you are immune to such trivialities as 12 blasts and 9 Heavy Bolter shots, I'm impressed. Truly.

As for the NOVA and BAO, I was referring to the fact that someone cited high toughness Chaos Marines as some answer to why NOT Wyverns. My response? Show me the high toughness Chaos Army that's winning and that IG are going to be losing to all the time. Cause they aren't at the major events that I could see.

IG have other weaknesses, but Wyverns aren't why they lose.

EVERY army has some anti-horde capability built into it (or should). So this happens to be an IG one. It's like suggesting that a GREAT anti-tank tool shouldn't be used because you might run into a horde. If you then play a horde with it, the anti-tank was suddeny a "terribad" idea? No. So neither is having Wyverns against an army that happens to have some toughness to it. Other tools will be needed in order to help tip the balance but its not like you wont be doing any damage.

Shred helps a lot with toughness btw. It shouldn't be underestimated like its being. But after thinking about it, here's what I should have said all along:

"cool yeah those Wyverns are no bother at all so uh... Its my turn right?".[b]

=)

Jancoran, you should try to play against Eldar with their wave serpents, who will laught at you and your wyvern, or tyranids/daemons and their flying circus, which wound ask why do you even bother to roll with that thing.

You have said, that " It's like suggesting that a GREAT anti-tank tool shouldn't be used because you might run into a horde". The problem is you dont see a horde army these days. And every army always has weapons good against infantry from the start (because basic infantry always has anti infantry weapons and tanks also have anti-infantry weapons from the start).

Poly Ranger wrote:

MATHHAMMER TIME!

I'm going to make one big assumption here that people may have issue with. I'm going to assume due to model spread and twinlinked, that each blast covers an average of 2 models. Otherwise this wpuld be impossible to calculate. Some would believe it to be higher than 2 on average, some, less than 2. There will be some scenarios that effect this such as a unit having deepstruck and shot, or a unit cramming into cover, boh reasonably common, but I shall ignore these.
Also assuming that the hb is in range and can see the target (and the target is not in cover - if the target is in cover they are probably getting more than 2 hits a blast anyway).
Id like to state I have never used or fought a wyvern so I am impartial.

T4/3+
(1/2 x 1/3 + 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/3) x2 = 0.5 per blast
0.5 x 6 = 3 killed by 3 wyverns
Hbs: 1/2 x 2/3 x 1/3 x 9 = 1
So 3 wyverns using the above assumptions kills 4 meq a turn.

Wyvers have 4 blasts each. If you assume 2 hits per blasts, you are looking at TWICE as many blast kills as you calculated.
2 hits per blast is 7 MEQ killed.

Basically you need to double all the wyvern kills in your math (leave heavy bolter kills as is).

-Matt

For 65 points its an absoloute steal and should be included in every IG army.

Even if it kills a 5 man scout squad (which it will) it'll make its points back. Almost every army has some infantry, and you can point the Wyvern at them.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

MATHHAMMER TIME!

I'm going to make one big assumption here that people may have issue with. I'm going to assume due to model spread and twinlinked, that each blast covers an average of 2 models. Otherwise this wpuld be impossible to calculate. Some would believe it to be higher than 2 on average, some, less than 2. There will be some scenarios that effect this such as a unit having deepstruck and shot, or a unit cramming into cover, boh reasonably common, but I shall ignore these.
Also assuming that the hb is in range and can see the target (and the target is not in cover - if the target is in cover they are probably getting more than 2 hits a blast anyway).
Id like to state I have never used or fought a wyvern so I am impartial.

T4/3+
(1/2 x 1/3 + 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/3) x2 = 0.5 per blast
0.5 x 6 = 3 killed by 3 wyverns
Hbs: 1/2 x 2/3 x 1/3 x 9 = 1
So 3 wyverns using the above assumptions kills 4 meq a turn.

Wyvers have 4 blasts each. If you assume 2 hits per blasts, you are looking at TWICE as many blast kills as you calculated.
2 hits per blast is 7 MEQ killed.

Basically you need to double all the wyvern kills in your math (leave heavy bolter kills as is).

-Matt

Do they? I have the AM dex but thought it was just 2 twinlinked blasts. I'll have to check when I get home. Not that I don't believe you - I just like to check. If that's the case it will make a considerable difference!

They have two TL storm shard mortars each (each mortars shooting two blasts)

Then there is absolutely no question about it - they are more than worth their points unless you are playing an armoured battalion!

 Lothar wrote:
Jancoran, you should try to play against Eldar with their wave serpents, who will laught at you and your wyvern, or tyranids/daemons and their flying circus, which wound ask why do you even bother to roll with that thing.

You have said, that " It's like suggesting that a GREAT anti-tank tool shouldn't be used because you might run into a horde". The problem is you dont see a horde army these days. And every army always has weapons good against infantry from the start (because basic infantry always has anti infantry weapons and tanks also have anti-infantry weapons from the start).

Oh you think i should try to uh...play against Eldar? Oh ok. Maybe I'll try that.

You dont see Horde armies? Oh okay. Ill disregard any that I DO see.

And since Im doing that I'll also maybe look into playing against Space marines too. I heard they were popular. Not that I'd know.

A leman russ executioner, which is about the same number of points, with the same magical scattering as the mathhammer above does 5 dead T4. Not as good for MEQ, but better on termies/MCs. Certainly more consistent output, until you run into cover, I guess.

Pask in a punisher gets weird. 11.8 wounds from the big gun, but 1/5th of those rend, so you get about 2.3 ignoring armor, then you get 4 more dead between the heavy bolter and the rest of the big gun wounds, assuming marines.

30 man plasmagun blob with FRFSRF gets 4 from lasguns, and about 2.5 from the plasma.

Assuming you get closer to my estimate for hits, you wind up with 7 dead marines, and that's assuming each blast gets 1 guy. I'd call that optimistic, really*, but since you're twin linked, it's might be realistic for an average. I still note that no one is talking about the possibility of MISSED blasts, which seems odd.

Okay, lets go to an extreme: Stormlord with sponsons is 530. If it doesn't move, it hits with the main cannon 15 times, wounds 12.5 times, no armor for marines. It could then average 1 kill with lascannons, and 1.5 kills with its heavy bolters.

So you're doing 195 points for 7 kills, or 0.0358 kills per point per turn. Stormlord is 530 points for 15 kills, or 0.0283 kills per point per turn. With all these assumptions in place, I can't think of a direct fire unit that actually does better, I suppose, though a lot of other units are close, and make up for the lack of kills with other benefits.

I still don't think they're the end all people think they are. They're not very survivable. And they're don't really interact significantly with any force multipliers, which is what the army is kind of made of at this point. Prescience gives any of those other things above effectively 50% more kills for 50 more points. That'd throw the kills per point ratio above the wyverns for basically anything i mentioned above. The blob with presecience kills accounted for and an extra 50 points figured it winds up with 0.0415 kills per point per turn. Stormlord would be 0.0401. I mean, I know that I'm tossing more points at the mix, but my ratio takes that into account. Your lack of force multiplier is the hidden cost of the wyvern not put on paper.


* Most likely single outcome on scatter is a direct hit. If you're going to scatter, your most likely scatter is 4", with more or less being more improbable the further away from that range you get. Ergo, you're either going to direct hit something (and likely only get one target) or you're going to scatter 4", which could be more or less good, depending on where it goes. You're not hitting the original target at that point though.

With it being twin linked barrage though, you can reliably walk it around the unit. The 48" range and ignores cover should also be taken into account in conclusions.
Against ork boyz for example you are looking at 21kills. That is pretty neat.
Against a guard blob it goes upto 25 kills.
Tau suffer 14 even with their 4+.
And 3-4 termies for something which isn't meant for killing termies is very nice.
LoW will almost always outgun something point for point against their optimum targets, its the benefit you get for putting all your eggs in one basket.
Don't get me wrong I totally get what you are saying, and they do fill a role that may not necessarily need filling, but since matt and desubot pointed out to me that each one gets FOUR blasts, I've been blown away. That is insanely awsome.
The question is, do you upgrade your anti infantry from adequate to excellent, or do you spend the points elsewhere? It all depends on your list I suppose.

Even the 30 man blob outperforms it assuming you have orders and prescience, at least against marines. I'd have to run the numbers, but I gotta imagine that worse armor saves probably reflect just as favorably for blobs as they do the wyvern.. Cover could make a difference though, I suppose. Does it completely ignore cover or just ignore LOS cover by virtue of the barrage rules?

Something I had forgotten to take into account was the barrage rules on walking the blasts back, but that could also hurt on a distant enough miss. Like I said earlier, this stuff is really hard to model. I'm kind of interested on seeing what you could do comparably with a manticore. Large blast can get 4 guys on the most lucky shot possible even if they're spread to max distance, assuming they're spread in a grid, and not a line.

You're right it is very difficult to model a mathmatical situation based on this. Its ignores cover rule btw not just via barrage.
I'm slightly leaning more towards the wyvern than not the wyvern now, but the point you make is valid about most of the army being able to achive tye same role. Remember though that you will also have to buy psykers and roll a successful wp2 power for prescience whereas the wyvern has it built in.

 daedalus wrote:
Even the 30 man blob outperforms it assuming you have orders and prescience, at least against marines. I'd have to run the numbers, but I gotta imagine that worse armor saves probably reflect just as favorably for blobs as they do the wyvern.. Cover could make a difference though, I suppose. Does it completely ignore cover or just ignore LOS cover by virtue of the barrage rules?

Something I had forgotten to take into account was the barrage rules on walking the blasts back, but that could also hurt on a distant enough miss. Like I said earlier, this stuff is really hard to model. I'm kind of interested on seeing what you could do comparably with a manticore. Large blast can get 4 guys on the most lucky shot possible even if they're spread to max distance, assuming they're spread in a grid, and not a line.

Yeah, if you got the psyker, get the power off, and are in range.
The amazing part of the wyvern isn't the damage output, it's the the damage output at the range.
You pay out the nose for lascannons because of the range.
For 130 points (sure, just take 2), you have a very good chance at killing pretty much everyone who just disembarked from the transport that the guard blob popped.
Because of the range, and lack of need for line of sight, you don't have to move or commit to a target during movement.

Is your opponent going to put everything at 2" dispersion because you brought a wyvern? Great! That means that 2/3rds of his army is further away than it would otherwise be.

 daedalus wrote:
Even the 30 man blob outperforms it assuming you have orders and prescience, at least against marines. I'd have to run the numbers, but I gotta imagine that worse armor saves probably reflect just as favorably for blobs as they do the wyvern.. Cover could make a difference though, I suppose. Does it completely ignore cover or just ignore LOS cover by virtue of the barrage rules?

Something I had forgotten to take into account was the barrage rules on walking the blasts back, but that could also hurt on a distant enough miss. Like I said earlier, this stuff is really hard to model. I'm kind of interested on seeing what you could do comparably with a manticore. Large blast can get 4 guys on the most lucky shot possible even if they're spread to max distance, assuming they're spread in a grid, and not a line.

Orders and prescience and a 30 man blob squad in range? When does that happen? And how many more points will all of those assets cost compared to wyverns?

Assuming the lowest points 30man + PCS + Psyker -s a little over 200 points. And they have to pass the command and 2wc power.

Iv gotten almost 45ish into FRFSRF double tap range (its awesome amount of dice) but it is impractical.

The problem is not wyverns killing power, its the durability. Which is close to zero in these days. Thats why i think its beter to invest in infantry squads. But yeah, one or two in1850 list is ok and can be helpful.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Is your opponent going to put everything at 2" dispersion because you brought a wyvern? Great! That means that 2/3rds of his army is further away than it would otherwise be.

Assaulty armies would not be very hurt by 2" spacing, and they're generally the horde armies you'd really want the wyvern for.

TheSilo wrote:
Orders and prescience and a 30 man blob squad in range? When does that happen? And how many more points will all of those assets cost compared to wyverns?

Power blobs come to mind. They also get OS, so there's that added bonus too.

I'm not a fan of the Wyvern. I will preface this by saying that I recognise it's a good tool for killing infantry, somewhat more reliable than most artillery, and above all dirt cheap.

BUT:


As has been pointed out, anti-infantry is something that Guard bring in spades just by virtue of turning up to the battle, be it massed Lasguns or a ton of Chimera weapons, or even both in larger lists. The core of a Guard army is generally built around shooting, and shooting infantry at that. They can out-shoot most armies in the 12-24" range, and definitely at closer than that. (FRF means they basically get Rapid Fire at full range, making them twice as dangerous per point as similar rapid-firing weapons at that range)

Secondly, there is an opportunity cost to fielding them. Yes, the two other HS slots can get me 6 more Russes, but generally I'll take as many single Russes as possible before I start squadroning them. Given the choice between 6 in 3 squadrons or 6 in 2, I'll take the former every time. This is not to mention the excellence that is the Manticore, which I think outclasses the Wyvern completely against infantry. Yes, it's more expensive, but it has a far wider target profile, better range (although that's rarely an issue), can do more than scrape the paint off vehicles and can really force the enemy to disperse over a wider area thanks to the larger blast area.

There may be an advantage to killing infantry at extreme range, but to be honest, in the opening turns I'd rather focus on taking out the enemy vehicles and heavy hitters than their grunts, which I know my infantry will be able to handle from T3-4 onwards. The opening moves are usually about eliminating the enemy damage potential, and most of the time, tanks hit harder than infantry.

So yeah, the Wyvern is good, but somewhat redundant in the face of better, more versatile and more durable options.

I'm seeing so things mentioned that while they sound good for a argument are not always the case like they're being made out to be.
1. Proper spacing will destroy the killing potential of the wyvern.
2. Its only viable against hordes
3. You waste a heavy slot by taking them.

First off, will your opponent ALWAYS have infantry spaced out? Probably not. If you run in a hardcore competitive meta where units are always max distance, well more power to you but that is by no means a standard. More often than not terrain and maneuvering can and will leave units clumped up, if they are spaced out then there are bound to be some unit in LOS out of cover and therefore vulnerable to other sources along with almost guaranteeing some hits as often it is much hard to miss spaced out units than a cluster.

Secondly, as it has been shown numerous times the wyvern can punch above its weight, yes its str 4 but it does what guard does best, forcing your opponent to roll large amount of saves due to volume of fire. Is it a sure fire way to bust terminators? No. But if you pile on the plates like a wyvern is able to, cracks will start to form and it takes very little for a wyvern to earn back its points, and being able to earn back its points -consistently- make it good and worth the buy in my book.

Thirdly and last, how often do you completely fill your heavy slots? In all honesty, in the six years I have been playing guard, never once have I completely filled my heavy slots. And now that we have tank commanders, we have literally been given and 4th slot.

All I'm trying to say is that yes the wyvern is not the best but neither is it impractical or a waste. Its solid in what it does, taking out cover camping infantry that is normally outside the range of other guns without needing orders or a psyker that could be used elsewhere. Can it do other things? Yes. But first and foremost it is a long range infantry cover buster. If you need that, take it. If not then don't.

A 5th slot with 2 hq ;-).

Bah, take your accursed math elsewhere foul arithmetic wizard!

:-p. Tbf I ballsed it up on this thread since I only gave each wyvern 2 blasts!

Well my Hydras are ready to rock and if i need to, I can simply pull the guns out and wammo, instawyvern. and Im gonna.

Heh. I'm now picturing these wyverns with fake gun barrels attached to them, to disguise them as hydras, so that no one will shoot at them.

"But sir, the enemy can see us clearly here!"

"Easy, private. Steady."

*Hundreds of boyz just go running past them on either side, not wasting time*

Lol. Good visual

daedalus wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Is your opponent going to put everything at 2" dispersion because you brought a wyvern? Great! That means that 2/3rds of his army is further away than it would otherwise be.

Assaulty armies would not be very hurt by 2" spacing, and they're generally the horde armies you'd really want the wyvern for.

Right, the idea of "but it forces them to displace!" holds very, very little water.

Firstly, ANYTHING with a blast or template weapon will cause displacement. There is nothing special about the wyvern at all in this respect. Secondly, displacement isn't actually that serious of a disadvantage thanks to a little thing called the movement phase. Thirdly, a squad may very well want to be spread out anyways to soak up more field position, which is especially useful for super-scorers (the intended target of wyverns).

The best answer to the fact that wyverns cause stuff to be spread out is "so?"

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

MATHHAMMER TIME!

Wyvers have 4 blasts each. If you assume 2 hits per blasts, you are looking at TWICE as many blast kills as you calculated.
2 hits per blast is 7 MEQ killed.

Basically you need to double all the wyvern kills in your math

And yet the math is still off.

The math presented (corrected for the proper number of shots), says that three wyvern hitting 2 models apiece kills 29 models. I'll just let it sink in for a moment. How do you get 29 kills with, AT MOST assuming you roll completely perfectly, 24 hits?

In the world of reality, not every shot hits, and not every shot wounds. Even assuming that you get two shots per hit, the real amount of damage you're going to do is much closer to
(12 * 2) * ~.6 * .84 which gives us a number much closer to 12

If you need to waste an HS slot on a few bits of open-topped artillery just to kill a guard squad in a turn, I seriously question what's wrong with the rest of your list. Or your opponent's understanding of what 2" coherency means.

 Ailaros wrote:

daedalus wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Is your opponent going to put everything at 2" dispersion because you brought a wyvern? Great! That means that 2/3rds of his army is further away than it would otherwise be.

Assaulty armies would not be very hurt by 2" spacing, and they're generally the horde armies you'd really want the wyvern for.

Right, the idea of "but it forces them to displace!" holds very, very little water.

Firstly, ANYTHING with a blast or template weapon will cause displacement. There is nothing special about the wyvern at all in this respect. Secondly, displacement isn't actually that serious of a disadvantage thanks to a little thing called the movement phase. Thirdly, a squad may very well want to be spread out anyways to soak up more field position, which is especially useful for super-scorers (the intended target of wyverns).

The best answer to the fact that wyverns cause stuff to be spread out is "so?"

I'll agree to that to an extent. It's a disadvantage if you can get them to go more than 3 ranks deep. Granted, even on an ADL, that's still like, what, a unit greater than 30 guys? ADL is 18" long, fully extended, right? I don't have one in front of me.

If I was running a list with a lot of Guardsmen - foot horde, mechanised, etc, I would not bring Wyverns. I have enough anti infantry, and need more AT.

To be perfectly clear, I would not run Wyverns in this kind of list because the vast majority of my guardsmen are already stuck in a bracket where they cannot hurt vehicles, or wound MCs reliably. Ergo, my HS must cover this weakness sufficiently. Wyverns do not do this effectively.

Wyverns and Guardsmen both suffer from the same weakness: they cannot wound the same certain targets effectively.

If I am running ABG, I would bring Wyverns.

- S4 Templates can't hurt my LRBTs on a bad scatter.
- No worries about HS slots and OS.
- The rest of my list is already good against hard targets - Heavy infantry such as MEQ and TEQ, MCs and Vehicles. - Wyverns let me bully troops popped from their transports by other vehicles more effectively by virtue of IC, barrage and multiple templates.

I think a lot of people are overstating the use of the Wyvern here. However, it can't be denied that it's effective for its points value.

 liquidjoshi wrote:
- S4 Templates can't hurt my LRBTs EVER.

Ftfy Well the wyvern ones anyway.