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One of the first thing as a newly started player is:

- I go to a GW with a bucket list; and walk out the store with only 50% because its not in stock at a GW, but only online. Then my question raises: why is there even a GW? (beside you can play there).
- They shorted the staff at a GW (money money money), and the only thing i notice on facebook of my local GW = store closed on.... store closed on... store closed on....
- Why the heck are there still army's with the 7th rule army book.
- Beside im new to dakka dakka (and i like it), where is the official community in words of a GW FORUM.
- (social)Media, like they still live around 1990 and think that a 56k modem is a blender.
- And ofcourse: make the game cheaper, prices are now way to high. Prices should be done on how much plastic/work there has been done, not a pricetag on how good a minature is. Paying 70 euro for a rulebook, where other books have more pictures/pages and so on for less then half the price. In my eyes; they are now letting potential costumers run away. (which is bad for them, and the community)

This came to mind for what GW could do ; p

Sell all their stores and just be a manufacturer. Then get a real marketing department.

 adamsouza wrote:

sand.zzz wrote:
GW has been led too far down the wrong path to come back. Greed has ruined the company, but the 40k IP will survive in spite of the mismanagement.

I dont even want to see them 'turn it around' anymore. The best thing for 40k would be GW dying.

No, just no. If you don't like the 40K wargame, that is fine, but no.

Star Wars RPG & Miniatures Battles from WEG, becomes Star Wars RPG and Collectable Miniatures Games by Wizards of the Coast, becomes Star Wars Pocket Models space combat game, becomes Star Wars multiple RPGs and multiple miniatures and board games by FFG.

They got more expensive, they got dumbed down, and they made previous collections irrelevant.

None of which would be good for the current 40K player base.

An obscure star wars game =/= 40k. thats such a terrible comparison it ruins your attempt a making a point. and shame on you for using 'No, just no.'

sand.zzz wrote:

An obscure star wars game =/= 40k. thats such a terrible comparison it ruins your attempt a making a point. and shame on you for using 'No, just no.'

No, just no

I'm not going to argue with you over a matters of opinion.

However, as a matter of fact NONE of the Star Wars games I mentioned were obscure.

WEG produced Star Wars games from 1987 to 1999 up until around Episode I dropped. It formed the expanded universe to the point where Star Wars authors were given the RPG books are source material. They were available in gaming shops and major book retailers.

WOTC produced Star Wars RPGs from 2000-2010 and their prepainted figures (2004-2010) were majorly popular available in any gaming shops ,major book retailers, and even ToysRus

WIZKIDS produced over a half dozen expansions for the Star War Pocket Model game from 2007-2008, available in gaming shops, ToysRus, and Target

3 major gaming companies in their time, with a license bigger than 40k, which one are you trying to call obscure ?

 adamsouza wrote:

sand.zzz wrote:

An obscure star wars game =/= 40k. thats such a terrible comparison it ruins your attempt a making a point. and shame on you for using 'No, just no.'

No, just no

I'm not going to argue with you over a matters of opinion.

However, as a matter of fact NONE of the Star Wars games I mentioned were obscure.

WEG produced Star Wars games from 1987 to 1999 up until around Episode I dropped. It formed the expanded universe to the point where Star Wars authors were given the RPG books are source material. They were available in gaming shops and major book retailers.

WOTC produced Star Wars RPGs from 2000-2010 and their prepainted figures (2004-2010) were majorly popular available in any gaming shops ,major book retailers, and even ToysRus

WIZKIDS produced over a half dozen expansions for the Star War Pocket Model game from 2007-2008, available in gaming shops, ToysRus, and Target

3 major gaming companies in their time, with a license bigger than 40k, which one are you trying to call obscure ?

Star Wars is the IP, as such, different companies will do different things with it.
Warhammer 40k is a much more focused IP. It's a miniatures game with a lot of lore and stories behind it. It could happen that the new company turns it into something unrecognizable, but that's unlikely because everything is in place already. (molds and machinery, logistics network, etc.) A table top RPG based on a movie is a very different IP than a miniature based wargame.

The coversation was about 40Ks IP surviving beyond the death of the parent company, and my apt analogy was for a scifi IP that had survived past multiple companies holding it, and were not obcure references. ALL 3 companies produced Star Wars Tabletop minatures based games.

Since GW is the largest tabletop miniatures gaming producer and they were to fail, who would have the resources to produce anything along the scope of what they currently produce ?

 adamsouza wrote:


Since GW is the largest tabletop miniatures gaming producer and they were to fail, who would have the resources to produce anything along the scope of what they currently produce ?

Were it to fail, someone like FFG would more than likely pick it, and the mfg capabilities up for a "bargain" price.... The only other companies that I can see that already have that kind of resourcing have no reason to even bother getting the 40k IP.... I'm talking about groups like PP, WGF, Corvus Belli, Hobbico (the parent company of Revell/Monogram) and the like. With the exception of Hobbico, almost all the others offer some form of competition for the marketplace that GW currently is competing in... IF someone like PP bought 40k/GW, it would literally be to kill it.

 Yonan wrote:
This came to mind for what GW could do ; p

Not that I actually suggest it, figuratively, let alone literally. Though I wouldn't be entirely opposed to the missing second, poised and ready to cut off the 'head'.

 adamsouza wrote:


3 major gaming companies in their time, with a license bigger than 40k, which one are you trying to call obscure ?

I called the WEG Star Wars RPG from the late 80's obscure, the one you compared to 40k. I didnt call Star Wars obscure. Dont say you 'dont want to argue', then put words in my mouth. I stand by what I said, that WEG rpg is not a good comparison to 40k. And yes, its obscure. Few people outside the avid TT or rpg enthusiast would even know it existed. You cant really say that about 40k. But lets not argue, your comparison was bad - leave it at that.

OK, here's a scenario: GW goes bankrupt and the official receiver sells off the assets for whatever he can get in order to pay off creditors.

None of the big toy companies like Hasbro are interested because the product line does not fit into their portfolio.

The small wargame companies are interested but can't afford to pay a lot. However the stuff has to be sold, so it is sold for a knock-down price to say Privateer or Fantasy Flight.

Once one of one of them buys 40K on the cheap they have an already popular fluff background, a load of plastic moulds for nearly all the models in the game, a shonky ruleset and possibly a warehouse full of kits and books.

Given the capital to invest in new production of kits, either of those companies can easily rewrite the rules to a much higher standard, issue new codexes for all the factions, and relaunch the game. All existing rulebooks would be invalidated -- but GW do that frequently anyway -- however all your existing armies would continue to be useable.

There is already a huge audience consisting of veterans who were so pissed off by GW's stewardship that they left, and they are itching to get back in at the right price and quality points.

The new rules are priced to sell well and do. After a successful relaunch, the new owner continues to produce high quality add-ons that extend the franchise in various directions without modifying or invalidating any of the existing rules and kits.

Unless you think the current 40K rules to be the acme of game design, this scenario is a much better one for the continuation of 40K into the future than Games Workshop continuing

The WEG Star Wars RPG wasn't obscure, there was a huge figure range and loads of supplements. It's only obscure to gamers now because it seems a long time ago. It wasn't at the time. I recall it being advertised in related magazines, maybe even Marvel comics or similar.

 adamsouza wrote:

WOTC produced Star Wars RPGs from 2000-2010 and their prepainted figures (2004-2010) were majorly popular available in any gaming shops ,major book retailers, and even ToysRus

WIZKIDS produced over a half dozen expansions for the Star War Pocket Model game from 2007-2008, available in gaming shops, ToysRus, and Target

Just to focus on this bit for a moment, the WotC minis game didn't 'become' the pocket model game, as you originally stated. The two games were produced concurrently, as WotC had a licence to produce a miniatures game, and Wizkids had a licence to produce a collectible card game (which the pocketmodels were technically classed as due to coming flatpacked on cards).

There's no progression there. Just two different products that were both based on the Star Wars IP.

Before I did anything I'd re-brand. GW has about as much goodwill with gamers as Phillip Morris has with pulmonologist.

Just relaunching with a new face and making a concentrated effort in improving customer/seller relations would help things dramatically.

 insaniak wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

WOTC produced Star Wars RPGs from 2000-2010 and their prepainted figures (2004-2010) were majorly popular available in any gaming shops ,major book retailers, and even ToysRus

WIZKIDS produced over a half dozen expansions for the Star War Pocket Model game from 2007-2008, available in gaming shops, ToysRus, and Target

Just to focus on this bit for a moment, the WotC minis game didn't 'become' the pocket model game, as you originally stated. The two games were produced concurrently, as WotC had a licence to produce a miniatures game, and Wizkids had a licence to produce a collectible card game (which the pocketmodels were technically classed as due to coming flatpacked on cards).

There's no progression there. Just two different products that were both based on the Star Wars IP.

Two different posts. I didn't look up the actual dates until the second post.

sand.zzz you are just flat out wrong about the Star Wars RPG being obscure in it's time. Your ignorance of it, and constant insistance otherwise, doesn't change that situation.

KillKrazy, I think your scenario is a best case situation that it not likely to happen.

Also, people here on Dakka are ready to burn GW to the ground for small codex changes that invalidate a power strategy here and there, but somehow they are going to okay with entirely new rules book to buy (like 7th), new codexes (like the hardcovers), and the smaller selection of models (because it would take them years to match the selection)?

The phrase "The grass is always greener on the other side" comes to mind

 adamsouza wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

WOTC produced Star Wars RPGs from 2000-2010 and their prepainted figures (2004-2010) were majorly popular available in any gaming shops ,major book retailers, and even ToysRus

WIZKIDS produced over a half dozen expansions for the Star War Pocket Model game from 2007-2008, available in gaming shops, ToysRus, and Target

Just to focus on this bit for a moment, the WotC minis game didn't 'become' the pocket model game, as you originally stated. The two games were produced concurrently, as WotC had a licence to produce a miniatures game, and Wizkids had a licence to produce a collectible card game (which the pocketmodels were technically classed as due to coming flatpacked on cards).

There's no progression there. Just two different products that were both based on the Star Wars IP.

Two different posts. I didn't look up the actual dates until the second post.

sand.zzz you are just flat out wrong about the Star Wars RPG being obscure in it's time. Your ignorance of it, and constant insistance otherwise, doesn't change that situation.

KillKrazy, I think your scenario is a best case situation that it not likely to happen.

Also, people here on Dakka are ready to burn GW to the ground for small codex changes that invalidate a power strategy here and there, but somehow they are going to okay with entirely new rules book to buy (like 7th), new codexes (like the hardcovers), and the smaller selection of models (because it would take them years to match the selection)?

The phrase "The grass is always greener on the other side" comes to mind

I'm ready to burn GW to the ground for a whole lot more than changes to a codex.

I can't speak for other people, only speak for myself. I know GW is out there to make money. Problem is, GW doesn't have to act so bullish in doing so.

So for me, what GW would have to do for me to come back is

1) Lower the Prices. I have been priced out of the Hobby. Talking to GW, I shouldn't have to feel I am not part of your player base. I shouldn't have to feel like I am a poor slob and all I should be able to do is savour at the product.

2) Make sure there is value in the product? I know things can be expensive, and I don't mind buying even expensive products, thing is, I don't see the VALUE in GW products. Minis are expensive BUT their books are way over priced by double for me. So I don't see no value, especially after paying $100 for the rules. For me, rules should last more than 4 years, not the 2 year cycle that GW seems to be doing now.

3) Don't be so arrogant and treat the customers like they are crap. I am sorry those CEO or what ever Kirby is, and how he talks about us the customers make me sick. If that is how you truly feel about me, I guess you don't want me as a customer.

4) Again Prices. I live in Canada. Why are the prices I pay way more than 30% more than the US while there is only a 10% difference in the dollar? What made it worse for over a year the Canadian dollar was More than the US green back and I still had to pay 30% more. Talk about being spat in the face.

If that changes, then I need

5) Clear concise rules. I am tired of the arguments in person, arguments on the internet. How come there is no editor? Bad enough the authors are idiots (I don't think so, but it seems they are sometimes).

6) Have fun rules. For me, and my son 40K is not fun anymore. For me and my son, not being able to do anything while the other person is shooting at you is not fun at all.

If that changes, then maybe I would come back. The Nagash thing they are releasing, seems really interesting, and thought maybe a good time to start Fantasy, but why do I want to start something that is Over priced, bad rules, and will have no support?

I already did Lord of the Rings, don't get me started on that fiasco. I just don't want that no more from GW. Sooooooo

Oh yeah I forgot, Tyranids.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
The WEG Star Wars RPG wasn't obscure, there was a huge figure range and loads of supplements. It's only obscure to gamers now because it seems a long time ago. It wasn't at the time. I recall it being advertised in related magazines, maybe even Marvel comics or similar.

My group really enjoyed this and I still have the books - which I've been referring to for FFGs Star Wars Armada ; p It was a really well fleshed out system, though the basic mechanics weren't the best.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Also, people here on Dakka are ready to burn GW to the ground for small codex changes that invalidate a power strategy here and there, but somehow they are going to okay with entirely new rules book to buy (like 7th), new codexes (like the hardcovers), and the smaller selection of models (because it would take them years to match the selection)?

The phrase "The grass is always greener on the other side" comes to mind

I'm ready to burn GW to the ground for a whole lot more than changes to a codex.

Legal bullying (to the point of itself being illegal)
Attacking fan sites
Shutting themselves off from the community as a whole
Charging an absolute premium for merely adequate or sometimes even vastly inferior products
Attacking FLGSs*
Blatantly unfair regional pricing
Apparent lack of respect for customers
Blatant money grabs (day one DLC, 7th ed releasing after 23 months)
And worst of all, removing the 'hobby' from 'The Hobby'

Yeah, I'd say there are probably a few extra reasons on top of 'my Deathstar isn't super OP anymore '


(*could someone please tell me if that is correct or if the plural of FLGS is just FLGS, it annoys me every time I have to type it)

Bear in mind that NECA snatches up licened properties all the time for HEROCLIX.

Imagine 40k reduced to prepainted figures in individual blind packs for $4 each. Sure it may be cheaper.....

 adamsouza wrote:




Also, people here on Dakka are ready to burn GW to the ground for small codex changes that invalidate a power strategy here and there, but somehow they are going to okay with entirely new rules book to buy (like 7th), new codexes (like the hardcovers), and the smaller selection of models (because it would take them years to match the selection)?

The phrase "The grass is always greener on the other side" comes to mind

Sound a like a complete strawman tbh mate. Small codex changes and not being able to use power strategies are not the reason most people here are unhappy with GW. Surely you know that if you read anyone's complaints about them.

 carlos13th wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:




Also, people here on Dakka are ready to burn GW to the ground for small codex changes that invalidate a power strategy here and there, but somehow they are going to okay with entirely new rules book to buy (like 7th), new codexes (like the hardcovers), and the smaller selection of models (because it would take them years to match the selection)?

The phrase "The grass is always greener on the other side" comes to mind

Sound a like a complete strawman tbh mate. Small codex changes and not being able to use power strategies are not the reason most people here are unhappy with GW. Surely you know that if you read anyone's complaints about them.

In fact, there's a whole thread about that.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/603134.page

 Kilkrazy wrote:
However I do not consider the publication of the Fantasy Flight Star Wars RPG to have invalidated the WEG one. Both are separate, self-contained systems. If I had kept my WEG stuff it would be just as playable today as ever.

I can confirm that they are just as playable today as they were then...we played a couple games last weekend because of the other thread that brought it up - and the dice still rolled just as well now.

Regarding 40K surviving though...not to sure it would (and I really doubt WFB would survive in any significant manner). Although not a strictly scientific manner to judge things by - if you look at pages which link to GW or within sites like Wikipedia, how many outside interest pages refer back to it...the vast majority are somewhat circular. They don't link to 40K unless they are talking about 40K specifically. You don't have it opined as being influential by outsiders (who see the significance, but not necessarily share the interest in franchises like Star Trek, Star Wars and even Stargate, Firefly, Red Dwarf, Battlestar Galactica...).

It just doesn't have a significant impact on culture - even within gaming, there are a lot of people who really are not familiar with GW at all, let alone 40K...especially here in the US. That isn't something that a company with the means to do so would be interested in going through the trouble of trying to rebuild.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

The new rules are priced to sell well and do. After a successful relaunch, the new owner continues to produce high quality add-ons that extend the franchise in various directions without modifying or invalidating any of the existing rules and kits.

Unless you think the current 40K rules to be the acme of game design, this scenario is a much better one for the continuation of 40K into the future than Games Workshop continuing

I could definitely see this happening, but NOT if Privateer get the IP. I think that PP could/would honestly buy the IP to let it die, so that they'd become the "big kid on the block"

Fantasy Flight has a legitimate reason to get "former GW" IP (should the ship finally hit that iceberg), and that is that they already run a number of other products from the setting/IPs... In order to continue making money off of it, they'd need to be able to have access to it, and the best way to ensure that would be to simply buy it. The question would come up of whether FFG could take on all that GW has, without sacrificing in some other areas of the company; Which I personally think we'd see a brief lull in quality from their other products, but they'd get used to the added "weight" and the quality would pick back up.

 MWHistorian wrote:

In fact, there's a whole thread about that.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/603134.page

Would you please stop pimping your thread ?

 carlos13th wrote:

Small codex changes and not being able to use power strategies are not the reason most people here are unhappy with GW.

I never said it was "the" reason most people are unhappy with GW.

My point was that peolple flip out over stuff as minor as codex changes, and to expect them to be all right with buying new rules and codexes if another publisher took over, was overly optimistic at best.

 adamsouza wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

In fact, there's a whole thread about that.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/603134.page

Would you please stop pimping your thread ?

 carlos13th wrote:

Small codex changes and not being able to use power strategies are not the reason most people here are unhappy with GW.

I never said it was "the" reason most people are unhappy with GW.

My point was that peolple flip out over stuff as minor as codex changes, and to expect them to be all right with buying new rules and codexes if another publisher took over, was overly optimistic at best.

But that is not why they flipped out, they are mad becouse GW is charging more for removing options then selling you the options they removed on top of the higher priced codex. But I think you know that, don't you.

If a new company scraped the current rule and rebuilt them from the ground up with playtesting. I'm willing to bet, more then a few of us would be willing to give it another shot.

Noir wrote:

But that is not why they flipped out, they are mad becouse GW is charging more for removing options then selling you the options they removed on top of the higher priced codex. But I think you know that, don't you.

I do know that. Everyone evidently has their pet reason to hate GW, and I can respect that. Just please respect that I don't care what anyone else's reasons are. They don't matter to me, and repeating them ad nasum to me like I'm suddenly going to change my mind about it is counter productive.

If a new company scraped the current rule and rebuilt them from the ground up with playtesting. I'm willing to bet, more then a few of us would be willing to give it another shot.

In all honesty I would give it a shot.

I'd also consider anyone who rage quit 40K over edition changes a hypocrite when they did so as well, but I'd keep it to myself, and just point and laugh at them when they weren't looking.

People tend to quit because they don't like the changes not just because there are changes.

 Boggy Man wrote:
Before I did anything I'd re-brand. GW has about as much goodwill with gamers as Phillip Morris has with pulmonologist.

Just relaunching with a new face and making a concentrated effort in improving customer/seller relations would help things dramatically.

Right, if for no other reason than the term 'Games Workshop' sounds like a sarcastic misnomer in terms of what the company actually does these days. The plural needs to be removed for a start, and possible change 'Workshop' to something like 'Re-cycling'.

The best way to show respect to another person's concerns is to say that you don't care about their concerns. Nice.